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[igooor]

Thieves are arritating, and of course skill should be reworked.
First of all npc that protect town should kill failed thieves - cos it is logical. If so only high skilled thieves would make often attempts to stole smth from you when you see them and now that they are thieves. And also should be applied feature that prevent using steal skill while weakness, so they should treat themselves of wait 5 min.
Thieves should work unnoticed not like now tracing you so you should every 5 sec move to prevent stealing, thats not normal and sometimes really annoying. Sometimes thieves are staying near trader - so you have no chances to trade - cos when you begin talking you have only 4 second before a thief will make his new attempt for stealing.

[HertogJan]

Thieves aren't irritating as long as people don't harass the skill for grieving purposes.
Which unfortunately happens a lot.

NPCs kill failed thieves if they failed stealing from them.
For instance if I fail stealing from the farmer in NCR the guards will shoot me.
IMO guards shoot ignore failed thieves unless the victim is a member of their faction.
In which case it should work like with failed stealing from npc and the thief should be shot on the spot.
Note that there's a difference between a failed steal and a successful steal but with losing protection.

Even low skilled thieves will attempt stealing, although I don't understand why.
All it does is cause their reputation to be really bad when their skill is finally high enough.

I don't understand the connection between stealing and being weak.
I can use all other skills when I'm weak, why should steal be an exception?

Steal has a 30 seconds cooldown.
During the cooldown you can't use the skill.
Every 5 seconds means someone is abusing the animation to harass you.

Some thieves at a trader are actually trading, although some people fail to understand that.

Personally I have some ethics as a thief, although I'm part of a minority with that.
Every red name, every cyrillic named player, every PK, every tent follower, every racist and everyone acting like an ass is a target.
For instance the guy harassing me while trading in the Hub old town yesterday made himself a target.
He tried to push me out of range to trade himself without having to wait.
Although I had over 10k of stuff in my inventory I stole from him.
I hope he understands he has to be patient and well mannered next time.

Stay away from NCR and you avoid at least 80% of all thieves.

[avv]

Wasteland justice can only be dealt when the thief is caught in the act.

The point was that alert players cannot increase their odds to catch a thief no matter what they do.

Also sneaking wouldn't be an option, it's useless in shops and crowds.

You'd only need to be invisible to your target. There's rarely so tight crowds in fonline. People tend to position themselves rather loosely. Surely a spotting formula could be arranged to represent guards and players having hard time to notice a thievery that happens when there's many chars in the line of sight. Then a skilled thief would need to check which character has least spectators but most other characters around it to disrupt the spectator's alertness. You couldn't just steal from anyone any time which should be pretty obvious, thats why you'd have to keep constant watch who would be the most optimal target.

Thieves hide in plain sight in crowds as there's less chance to get noticed.
Again, the only reason it's obvious is the isometric view you have and your character doesn't have.

That can be worked too. I have no idea why we can see so far to our sides and behind. Because we hear? Well we shouldn't be able to hear what someone looks like or what his name is. Otherwise should hear behind walls aswell. Less visibility to the flanks and rear would actually be much more interesting in pvp too.
It would be totally okay to not to see a sneaking dude behind me at all.

If the crowded field of view system was also added, players would have to think about where to position their chars. Some areas could be safer (shops and quest zones) but they could become crowded and thus unsafe.

So if you want 100% succesful steal, it'd be a guy who has his back turned against you and has no eyes laid upon him.

As for challenge, it would be more likely to go the way of con artists.
1 distracts you, the 2nd steals from you.
Not a change, as you can still see it with your isometric view, which goes for every "solution".

Indeed. If additional chars reduced the spectator's alertness, it would be encouraged to have a pickpocket-posse who surrounds the victim and one performs the stealing act.

[HertogJan]

The point was that alert players cannot increase their odds to catch a thief no matter what they do.

They already have a 100% chance not to be stolen from if they're alert.

You'd only need to be invisible to your target. There's rarely so tight crowds in fonline. People tend to position themselves rather loosely. Surely a spotting formula could be arranged to represent guards and players having hard time to notice a thievery that happens when there's many chars in the line of sight. Then a skilled thief would need to check which character has least spectators but most other characters around it to disrupt the spectator's alertness. You couldn't just steal from anyone any time which should be pretty obvious, thats why you'd have to keep constant watch who would be the most optimal target.

That's nerving a skill to a level it's unworkable.

That can be worked too. I have no idea why we can see so far to our sides and behind. Because we hear? Well we shouldn't be able to hear what someone looks like or what his name is. Otherwise should hear behind walls aswell. Less visibility to the flanks and rear would actually be much more interesting in pvp too.
It would be totally okay to not to see a sneaking dude behind me at all.

If the crowded field of view system was also added, players would have to think about where to position their chars. Some areas could be safer (shops and quest zones) but they could become crowded and thus unsafe.

So if you want 100% succesful steal, it'd be a guy who has his back turned against you and has no eyes laid upon him.

It's probably due to the isometric view.
It would indeed be interesting if your character has a lesser sight from the sides and none from the back.
Although that should be compensated a bit by hearing and smell, so an x amount of hexes or something like that.
Nicer would be just a message you heared something behind you.

In this game every area is unsafe.

Steal skill is already designed in such a way you don't have 100% success rate and it shouldn't be changed to it.

Indeed. If additional chars reduced the spectator's alertness, it would be encouraged to have a pickpocket-posse who surrounds the victim and one performs the stealing act.

We already had similar things with groups of thieves blocking shop exits.
It's not something you want and it's just as lame as shoot and loot teams.

[avv]

They already have a 100% chance not to be stolen from if they're alert.

I meant catching, not preventing getting stolen from. Right now there's no way to catch a thief and make him pay for his crime attempts. Surely he might randomly fail but that's not up to the victim.

That's nerving a skill to a level it's unworkable.

Not if done well. It takes some modifications to line of sight so that it's not a quadrangle where the char is placed near one corner but a slice of sector laid in front of him. That would make figuring out lines of sight easier because no matter the perception, nobody would actually see further to his side and rear. It'd be like a puzzle to figure out which char has least eyes on him but most distraction around. You want to beat players? Then you need to outsmart them. Find the victim who has positioned himself badly. Smart players wouldn't usually be possible to be stolen from, that's okay.

Steal skill is already designed in such a way you don't have 100% success rate and it shouldn't be changed to it.

You know what's very bad feature in games? When you plan things precisely perfectly but it fails because there's 0,01% chance to fail due to the fact the game is based on dice rolls. I see no reason why you couldn't work youself 100% success rate if you did everything right and your victim didn't do anything to counter you. Your victim doesn't deserve even that 0,01% chance if he didn't work for it. Only npcs deserve a small defensive success chance because they are slaves to their script. 

We already had similar things with groups of thieves blocking shop exits.
It's not something you want and it's just as lame as shoot and loot teams.

That's how thieves work in reality, and in fonline it'd be called teamwork which deserves some credit. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it because it's activity faithful to the game world unlike shoot'n'loot or blocking doorways. So if something like that is implemented, counter measures usable by victims must follow ofcourse. It's not i'd like some undefeatble pickpocket mob to roam every town.

[Johnnybravo]

Stay away from NCR and you avoid at least 80% of all thieves.

This made me to create a forum account.

You sir suggest to avoid players to play a MMO game?
I've got feeling that this is just broken and advocating it won't make this game any better.

[HertogJan]

I meant catching, not preventing getting stolen from. Right now there's no way to catch a thief and make him pay for his crime attempts. Surely he might randomly fail but that's not up to the victim.

I know what you meant, it's just makes no sense.
Or are you working for the local sherrif?

Not if done well. It takes some modifications to line of sight so that it's not a quadrangle where the char is placed near one corner but a slice of sector laid in front of him. That would make figuring out lines of sight easier because no matter the perception, nobody would actually see further to his side and rear. It'd be like a puzzle to figure out which char has least eyes on him but most distraction around. You want to beat players? Then you need to outsmart them. Find the victim who has positioned himself badly. Smart players wouldn't usually be possible to be stolen from, that's okay.

It doesn't change my point.
It makes stealing in areas like NCR bazar impossible.

You know what's very bad feature in games? When you plan things precisely perfectly but it fails because there's 0,01% chance to fail due to the fact the game is based on dice rolls. I see no reason why you couldn't work youself 100% success rate if you did everything right and your victim didn't do anything to counter you. Your victim doesn't deserve even that 0,01% chance if he didn't work for it. Only npcs deserve a small defensive success chance because they are slaves to their script.  

Stop playing RPGs.
Removing dice rolls makes outcomes predictable and boring.
It's not just stealing, it's also crit chance, encounters, etc.
The victim can walk away, it's his counter measure.

That's how thieves work in reality, and in fonline it'd be called teamwork which deserves some credit. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it because it's activity faithful to the game world unlike shoot'n'loot or blocking doorways. So if something like that is implemented, counter measures usable by victims must follow ofcourse. It's not i'd like some undefeatble pickpocket mob to roam every town.

So you're saying locking people in locations is okay if you're stealing but not if  you plan to loot and shoot?
Where's the logic in that? There's no difference, you lose your stuff.

Thieving teams work like this:
1 creates a diversion by talking to the victim or whatever.
The 2nd steals and passes the loot to the 3rd who walks away with it or even gives it to a 4th.

This made me to create a forum account.

You sir suggest to avoid players to play a MMO game?
I've got feeling that this is just broken and advocating it won't make this game any better.

I'm not suggesting you avoid players, I'm suggestion you avoid players in NCR.
NCR is filled with thieves, looters & shooters, tent followers, people try to con you, try to trick you in such a way it leads to your death, shoot you just for the fun of it, ...
The other option is not to complain about thieves if you choose to go to a location that's filled with them.

[avv]

I know what you meant, it's just makes no sense.
Or are you working for the local sherrif?

Dealing wasteland justice is everyman's right. In addition everyone should be allowed to protect their items with force and alertness. You can shoot a robber in the wasteland, how come you can't fight against a thief if the losses are the same: material. I've tried to explain that player's only chance to avoid robberty is running makes stealing very annoying feature. That's what this discussion is mainly about. If players received a way to use their alertness to spot thieves and shoot them, thieves would also deserve a way to skillfully avoid being spotted. 

It makes stealing in areas like NCR bazar impossible.

Only less obvious. What's wrong with not being able to harass everyone everwhere and being forced to use finesse to achieve your goals?

Stop playing RPGs.
Removing dice rolls makes outcomes predictable and boring.

I'm not talking about removing but having occasions when dice roll is simply ignored because there are so many factors supporting success.

The victim can walk away, it's his counter measure.

No that's just avoiding, and some thieves might actually just want to harass people. Counter measure means hitting back and getting rid of the thief, not running away. Players have right to defend their personal space and property.

[Johnnybravo]

By suggesting me to move away from NCR you're basicly suggesting me to play solo - there's simply not enough people in other cities in my playtime.
In fact if one town is filled with filth and thieves just because of it's population you might be safe to assume that game is designed for that high crime rate.

[HertogJan]

Dealing wasteland justice is everyman's right. In addition everyone should be allowed to protect their items with force and alertness. You can shoot a robber in the wasteland, how come you can't fight against a thief if the losses are the same: material. I've tried to explain that player's only chance to avoid robberty is running makes stealing very annoying feature. That's what this discussion is mainly about. If players received a way to use their alertness to spot thieves and shoot them, thieves would also deserve a way to skillfully avoid being spotted.

Protecting your items by avoiding problems is a better solution, especially in the wasteland. Who knows who the thief's friends are and what they can do.
In the wasteland you might be able to walk away from a robber too.
The whole discussion is about people harassing others at traders by using or pretending to use the thief skill.
Sometimes it's the thief skill, sometimes it's pure harassment.

Only less obvious. What's wrong with not being able to harass everyone everwhere and being forced to use finesse to achieve your goals?

What's wrong with fixing the things that cause the harassment in the first place instead of "fixing" a problem by nerving a skill useless?
Main problems are the steal animation being equal to other animations and traders only being able to speak to 1 person at a time. That means more people around the trader, meaning more thieves and more impatient people scaring off others by pretending to steal.

I'm not talking about removing but having occasions when dice roll is simply ignored because there are so many factors supporting success.

Removing it or ignoring it, the result is the same.

No that's just avoiding, and some thieves might actually just want to harass people. Counter measure means hitting back and getting rid of the thief, not running away. Players have right to defend their personal space and property.

The people harassing others and following them around aren't thieves, they're just a bunch of low life grievers. No matter what you'll do, you'll have them around. Remove the steal skill and they'll start bursting people.
Preventing is better than being a victim. Players playing a "good guy" have to accept the fact they're a bit limited in guarded areas as everyone is protected by default and guns are not always allowed.

It's so damn easy to prevent being stolen from. Simply walk away. How hard can it be?

By suggesting me to move away from NCR you're basicly suggesting me to play solo - there's simply not enough people in other cities in my playtime.
In fact if one town is filled with filth and thieves just because of it's population you might be safe to assume that game is designed for that high crime rate.

I have no idea where you're from and when you're on.
If you're going to a town filled with scum and you know that, don't complain about things like stealing. Accept it happens and be careful. High crime rates are part of NCR.
Pre-wipe I was in NCR a lot. This time I'm not. I have met a lot more interesting and nice people this time around.

[avv]

Protecting your items by avoiding problems is a better solution, especially in the wasteland. Who knows who the thief's friends are and what they can do.
In the wasteland you might be able to walk away from a robber too.

Okay let's say everyone is so smart that they just avoid all thieves and never come to safe towns, actually they are so careful that they don't even leave their tents. Are you happy now that you don't have any targets to pickpocket?
Encouraging excessive avoidance of dangers leads to bad gameplay. Players must set to compete against each other, that's exciting.

The whole discussion is about people harassing others at traders by using or pretending to use the thief skill.
Sometimes it's the thief skill, sometimes it's pure harassment.

But it was already agreed that even if the animation was changed, griefers would still use the skill but not take anything. And why does this harassment annoy people? Because they have to run.

It's so damn easy to prevent being stolen from. Simply walk away. How hard can it be?

Players playing a "good guy" have to accept the fact they're a bit limited in guarded areas as everyone is protected by default and guns are not always allowed.

This is something I just disagree. The reason why is that when someone tries to steal, it's basically an invasion to another player's personal space and inventory. In other words a pvp challenge or "you're messing with me" situation. In pvp situations players have to be able to defeat or to be defeated. Victory must be declared by who played most skillfully. The whole scenario lacks the possibility for the thief and his victim to increase their winning chances with skill. This doesn't apply because the chance to get caught is independent on player's actions. Another reason is that thieves cannot be defeated, they can be only avoided which is a draw. The thief can win but the victim cannot. Doesn't sound very fair. How would it feel if in pvp you could only run from your enemy?

[HertogJan]

Okay let's say everyone is so smart that they just avoid all thieves and never come to safe towns, actually they are so careful that they don't even leave their tents. Are you happy now that you don't have any targets to pickpocket?
Encouraging excessive avoidance of dangers leads to bad gameplay. Players must set to compete against each other, that's exciting.

I never said anything about avoiding safe towns, nor did and do I agree to the person who did in this thread or another one about stealing.
Even if everyone stayed in their tents, thieves could steal from npc.
There are plenty of ways to avoid dangers, staying out of NCR bazar at peak hours is 1 of them.
A lot of players avoid excessive dangers like towns controlled by certain gangs, going into certain areas, etc. as they know they'll get raped by other players. Most likely a small group and possibly with mercs. Apparently you're one of the people PKing this way, probably trash talking over the corpse to show you're "hardcore". Most of us don't find that exciting at all.

But it was already agreed that even if the animation was changed, griefers would still use the skill but not take anything. And why does this harassment annoy people? Because they have to run.

Why should people who use this skill to actually steal suffer because others abuse it?

It's so damn easy to prevent being stolen from. Simply walk away. How hard can it be?

Quoted something wrong here?

This is something I just disagree. The reason why is that when someone tries to steal, it's basically an invasion to another player's personal space and inventory. In other words a pvp challenge or "you're messing with me" situation. In pvp situations players have to be able to defeat or to be defeated. Victory must be declared by who played most skillfully. The whole scenario lacks the possibility for the thief and his victim to increase their winning chances with skill. This doesn't apply because the chance to get caught is independent on player's actions. Another reason is that thieves cannot be defeated, they can be only avoided which is a draw. The thief can win but the victim cannot. Doesn't sound very fair. How would it feel if in pvp you could only run from your enemy?

The only challenge there is is for a thief to steal and a none thief to not be stolen from. The way people are voluntarily packed upon eachother at traders and the NCR bazar makes the whole personal space and inventory thing a none issue. There is no challenge, nor a defeat or be defeated issue. Which makes sense as stealing is not a combat skill. As said before, the victim wins by avoiding the steal.
Like a lot of players, I have alts which can't do anything but run in pvp as they're simply not capable to put on much of a fight in pvp. My thief alt is one of them, but my armorer and doctor are too.
Fair? No.
Would I want it to be different? No.
It's a choice in character creation and playing style. Thieves are 1 of many builds and playing styles.
Take your hatred towards grievers out on them and not on actual thieves. Thieves can't help it some impatient piece of (brahmin) shit uses steal to scare you away from a trader. Thieves can't help it that the person you PK uses the steal skill to harass you as a way to take revenge, thieves can't help it ...

[avv]

I never said anything about avoiding safe towns

Really?

There are plenty of ways to avoid dangers, staying out of NCR bazar at peak hours is 1 of them.

Why should people who use this skill to actually steal suffer because others abuse it?

People run away from thieves and abusers alike.
The abuse is only possible because how steal works: someone comes near you and rolls a dice. People are afraid of this dice because they can't fight it.

The only challenge there is is for a thief to steal and a none thief to not be stolen from. The way people are voluntarily packed upon eachother at traders and the NCR bazar makes the whole personal space and inventory thing a none issue.

The personal space is not an issue, but the moment when someone browses my inventory. Anyone can stand next to me if there is assurement he isn't up to something.

There is no challenge, nor a defeat or be defeated issue. Which makes sense as stealing is not a combat skill. As said before, the victim wins by avoiding the steal.

There is always challenge when there's one player who wants something and another who wants the opposite. When there's challenge there is victory and defeat. The settings might be biased towards either side, which in this case is the thieve's side. How can you say it's victory for the victim if he only gets to keep his items? Victory means that winner gets something from the loser, or the loser is put in more miserable state than the winner or the winner gets something and loser gets nothing. The first alternative applies when thief wins: he gets an item from the victim. Decent prize for success. When the victim escapes, he doesn't get anything, neither does the thief lose anything so it's not a victory for the victim. Especially because the thief can just run after the victim forever.

Besides, didn't you mention yourself that you use steal against rednicks and your enemies? So it is a tool that you use to cause troubble to your foes. Sounds like pvp to me. I mentioned that being only able to run away from your foes would be pretty annoying so isn't this happening with thieves right now? They can't fight you but you can "fight" them by taking their stuff.

[HertogJan]

Really?

Really.

People run away from thieves and abusers alike.
The abuse is only possible because how steal works: someone comes near you and rolls a dice. People are afraid of this dice because they can't fight it.

People run away because they don't know who's the thief and who's the abuser.
If I know someone is using it to harass me, I won't walk away.
With low skill they won't try because they know they'll get shot.

The personal space is not an issue, but the moment when someone browses my inventory. Anyone can stand next to me if there is assurement he isn't up to something.

And how do you assure that?
It might not be a thief, it could be part of a shoot & loot team.

There is always challenge when there's one player who wants something and another who wants the opposite. When there's challenge there is victory and defeat. The settings might be biased towards either side, which in this case is the thieve's side. How can you say it's victory for the victim if he only gets to keep his items? Victory means that winner gets something from the loser, or the loser is put in more miserable state than the winner or the winner gets something and loser gets nothing. The first alternative applies when thief wins: he gets an item from the victim. Decent prize for success. When the victim escapes, he doesn't get anything, neither does the thief lose anything so it's not a victory for the victim. Especially because the thief can just run after the victim forever.

Besides, didn't you mention yourself that you use steal against rednicks and your enemies? So it is a tool that you use to cause troubble to your foes. Sounds like pvp to me. I mentioned that being only able to run away from your foes would be pretty annoying so isn't this happening with thieves right now? They can't fight you but you can "fight" them by taking their stuff.

Victory means someone wins, someone loses. That's not about items nor about killing someone.
What the thief loses is time (cooldown) and people know he's a (possible) thief.

This is still about grievers, not about thieves. Again, thieves can't help it people abuse the animation.

I don't use steal against rednecks or enemies, I use it on them.
I choose to steal from people I tagged red for PK, stealing, exploiting, tent following, abuse of the steal skill, misbehaving, abusing shout, ...
It's not to trouble my foes as I use the skill, not abuse it.
It's simple, I get to choose between a red name or a grey name at a trader. The choice is easy. I leave the grey name alone and try to steal from the red name.
Sometimes I'm successful and sometimes my victim runs away.

People run away from thieves. That's how it is. If thieves follow them, they're either stupid or not thieves but people who abuse the steal skill.
I don't get why you think all "problems" should be dealt with by fighting. Walk away a few times and the "thief" gets bored.

[avv]

With low skill they won't try because they know they'll get shot.

But then the abusers would just peek in your inventory without taking anything. This would have the same effect as current abuse.

And how do you assure that?

By having a method to keep an eye on someone and certainly catch him if he tries to steal. How would that differ from running anyway? You can't steal from someone if keeps an eye on you in both cases. The only real difference would be that your char gets caught and unprotected which is only fair.

It might not be a thief, it could be part of a shoot & loot team.

That's another problem entirely.

Victory means someone wins, someone loses. That's not about items nor about killing someone.
What the thief loses is time (cooldown) and people know he's a (possible) thief.

How can you say it's not about items if you are after items while stealing? You want the item, the victim wants to keep it.
The victim loses time also, maybe he was going to finish a deal with npc or player but he had to run away.
Still the victim has to be on his toes all the time, he gets no peace even if he knows who thief is. 
In addition the victory conditions aren't fair. The victim cannot put preissure on the thief the same way the thief can do to the victim. Thief can be after you forever but you can't be after him.

I don't use steal against rednecks or enemies, I use it on them.

How's that any differend? You cause them troubble, that's all what counts.

It's not to trouble my foes as I use the skill, not abuse it.

Losing items counts as troubble.

I leave the grey name alone and try to steal from the red name.

It doesn't matter what you do in the end, because there are other thieves with differend motives. By pointing out that you steal from your enemies I tried to explain that stealing is like pvp. You use it to cause troubble to your enemies so it's pvp. And because it is pvp, same rules must apply to it aswell. If you can cause them troubble, they must be allowed to cause troubble to you in the same scenario at the same volume.

People run away from thieves. That's how it is.

It's not up to you to state how things are.

I don't get why you think all "problems" should be dealt with by fighting.

Fighting or competition. That's usually how games solve things to keep everyone happy.