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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Wallace on January 09, 2012, 09:49:44 am
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Since the end of world war 3, when human race was trying to struggle for survival, mankind initially have had 3 possible weapons of choice: Sticks, stones and their bare hands.
Every once in a while strugglers were able to rise their fighting skills by choosing a perk that helps with fighting and the most wanted was "Bonus HtH Attacks". It was availible to any survivor lucky enough not to die from any mutant/animal attacks, starvation or heatstroke...
However since last bomb fell on the wasteland that WIPEd most of the civilisation yet again changed humans and their way of learning...
They noticed that even to hit the eyes they needed much less that their prodecessors from before the "WIPE"
Skill you needed then to hit eyes for sure - about 175 unarmed (or melee)
Skill you need now - 125 unarmed
But now you have to invest enough skill points to rise it up another 100 which you cannot do without screwing your pugilist build... these are point you have to invest waste for a single purpose of getting a perk Bonus HtH Attacks
That makes no sense now does it? One way of getting high enough unarmed/melee to be useful would be to cause "HtH Evade" perks to be working ONLY when one IS NOT running.
Conclusion: Even with HTH evades working that way requiremants of Bonus HtH Attacks should be no more than 175% in skill
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bonus HtH attacks 225% unarmed LOL
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Ever try BvC in D2 HC with no 4pgem shield? It's more fun than trying to sneak up on someone carrying very big automatic weapon.
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Ever try BvC in D2 HC with no 4pgem shield? It's more fun than trying to sneak up on someone carrying very big automatic weapon.
;D
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Just take that ridiculous new trait and knock them down with every single hit. scrap aiming just keep them on the floor with a rock whilst your buddies buthump them.
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It should be 180% required, I don't see that as a massive investment to get a large boost.
Heavy Handed knocking people down? Good.
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Then what is the official version?
Level Perks
Bonus HtH Attacks
- Ranks: 1
- Generic requirements: Level at least 18, Unarmed or Melee Weapons at least 225
- Description: You have learned the secret arts of the East, or you just punch faster. In any case, your Hand-to-Hand attacks cost 1 AP less to perform.
(...)
Lisac's perk list seems updated
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It should be 180% required
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If it was really changed this way you have my gratitude (devs)
However Solar don't you think that HtH Evades should work while standing? I mean it's hard to use your unarmed/melee skills for evading while running won't you agree?
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It was meant to be lowered a long with brof. Mustve been missed.
I don't think any perks will change for a good few weeks yet. Give them time to settle in
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It was meant to be lowered a long with brof. Mustve been missed.
I don't think any perks will change for a good few weeks yet. Give them time to settle in
Wait... so it was meant to be 180%, but due to overlooking it is 225% and many builds will be screwed for another few weeks because of that or I am just wrong?
EDIT: About Melee fighters, they are stronger than ever before, if you ask me, that's it :P
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Its a bug, if you can't deal with them then a beta test is no place for you (there will be many more than this in the future)
Melee/hand to hand are more powerful now, I hope its safe to say
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Its a bug, if you can't deal with them then a beta test is no place for you (there will be many more than this in the future)
Beta... beta never changes...
Here we go again:) So Solar, none of specially selected closed-beta testers didnt noticed that somethings wrong with requirements?
Im saying generally, i dont care about any hth perks, but you have to admit, that 225% skill requirement is riddicoulus, for everyone who ever tried such melee/unarmed build in fonline2238. Answer: that this not gonna be changed in fe weeks is fine for me, you have your schedule, and i accept that. But who had that brilliant idea to set this requirement first?
Before you propose me ban solution, i need to say that its shame, about 16months development to finally release something like that:)
and im not trolling... i can give u perfect solution.... lower the rquirement.
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HtH is good now. Much better than before, thanks to chance of making really tough guy almost immortal against normal dmg, but two things are really screwed. Heavy handed guy can kill my crit HtH build without any chance for me. He can keep me down with unaimed hits for 3ap and I got no chance to escape or defend. Also absence of better crit for HtH makes unarmed critical build almost useless. I got problem with Haymaker to do some crits against headprotected enemy and if i make some, it almost never do some knock down/out/blindness etc.
The knock down feature is really good idea, but i dont know why is only for Heavy Handed trait. Agains all ranged enemies it is the thing that HtH build missed for balance all the time. But HtH with Heavy H. vs HtH without it is absolutely unbalanced and gives ultimate advantage to the first one.
One question at the end: Did someone recognized problem with unarmed and bindings? On my client the bindings for aiming are not working with unarmed attacks. Haymaker and other nowielding attacks are not aimed by them. Spiked knuckels are working properly.
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Here we go again:) So Solar, none of specially selected closed-beta testers didnt noticed that somethings wrong with requirements?
Lets try a little timeline.
They said its too high.
Based on that we decided to reduce the requirements of it and BRoF.
This one was missed in error.
Whine from some people.
You acting like a little bitch, trying for some reason to get banned.
Me posting this.
Perk fixed and server updated.
Also absence of better crit for HtH makes unarmed critical build almost useless
Better HTH criticals is not working? Its a better version of better criticals.
The knock down feature is really good idea, but i dont know why is only for Heavy Handed trait. Agains all ranged enemies it is the thing that HtH build missed for balance all the time. But HtH with Heavy H. vs HtH without it is absolutely unbalanced and gives ultimate advantage to the first one.
I think they fill very different niches. Perhaps if you find better hth criticals/it is made to work (depending on what the problem is) then your opinion of the critical build will improve.
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HtH is good now. Much better than before, thanks to chance of making really tough guy almost immortal against normal dmg, but two things are really screwed. Heavy handed guy can kill my crit HtH build without any chance for me. He can keep me down with unaimed hits for 3ap and I got no chance to escape or defend. Also absence of better crit for HtH makes unarmed critical build almost useless. I got problem with Haymaker to do some crits against headprotected enemy and if i make some, it almost never do some knock down/out/blindness etc.
The knock down feature is really good idea, but i dont know why is only for Heavy Handed trait. Agains all ranged enemies it is the thing that HtH build missed for balance all the time. But HtH with Heavy H. vs HtH without it is absolutely unbalanced and gives ultimate advantage to the first one.
One question at the end: Did someone recognized problem with unarmed and bindings? On my client the bindings for aiming are not working with unarmed attacks. Haymaker and other nowielding attacks are not aimed by them. Spiked knuckels are working properly.
1 - take "In your face!" to even the odds... heavy hander may keep you down for a while but you do better crits
2 - not true - i fought with some people (who were shooting at me) and they could get up and runaway or sell me a bullet in the eyes occasionally. I'd say chances aren't far from 50/50 (but shooters have much greater chance for killing HtH who is running away and HtH won't gonna catch shooter running to the exit grid =/
3 - What do you mean "absence"? There is a "Better HtH criticals" perk or something... right?
4 - "Hit the gaps" perk might be coming handy
5 - If both Heavy-handers get In your face! then the odds are like 50/50 too
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Well actualy... My lvl 1 char with HH and 10 str is winning as long as:
a) it's 1vs1
b) land a hit (even 1)
With str 10 and over 80 i hit almost every time (standing targets have 0 AC so no chance to avoid). They can run but if they stop to shot then if they not kill me with first shot then they are as good as dead...
Now question:
Is it ment to be that lvl 1 char (when i get to lvl 2 and get my unarmed over 100 god have mercy) to be able to kill anyone as long as it hit him? With this all chars NEED to have 10 END and Stone wall perk or they can die killed by lvl 1 char. And it's not becouse this lvl 1 char is good player. It just have HH trait...
Once again i will compare HH with KD to Slayer perk.
Slayer - luc test for crit (crit not equal KD), Perk (take perk slot), not available
HH - STR test for KD, Trait available from start, adds melee dmg lowers crit rate (so basicly this bonus melee dmg make up for lower dmg then crit)
So if you don't plan to add Slayer or Sniper perk then why add this?
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If it turns out to be too good then its a simple fix to add in a -X to the Str test. If it is too good or not hasn't been decided yet.
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It isnt too good. Stonewall and In Your Face! are remedies to it
In case of stonewall Vs HH i'd say to implement roll for each - who rolls better wins (stone keeps his stance / HH knocks stonewall)
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There's fast recovery, it should make a knockdown -1 not -3AP and it's only lv3. You'd need a rock and bonus hth attacks to keep someone knockdowned, with a 3ap attack you'd run out of ap while the victim still can have up to 7ap. With a rock you'd have to hit 50x to kill an armored player with ~200hp.
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Stonewall>Heavy Handed.
There, I did it, I fixed this issue.
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Or make KD from HH depand on unarmed skill [like STR/2+((unarmed-80)/20))]. It would make sense to get more unarmed then 125 and new char would have much smaller chance to KD then expirienced one...
like in this example a char with 10 str and 180 unarmed would have same chance to KD as char with 10 str now. People who go for HtH would get higher unarmed anyway to get bonus HtH. And it would make lvl1 toons made just to KD people less usefull...
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So if you don't plan to add Slayer or Sniper perk then why add this?
comparing it to cricals that can
do 4x dama, bypass armors, cripple, ko, insta kill you isn't serious....
Non-critical HtH kills slowly.
If you don't surprise ONE person and ONE person only you are dead
It's strong but only in very specific situation when you surprise and get 1 hex close to someone who is alone. And you still can get away if you are lucky.
I like that people can jump at you from behind some corner and beat you on a street if you are
not careful. It's more accurate of what postapo HtH would be I think.
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[like STR/2+((unarmed-80)/20))]
Str: 8
Unarmed: 180
4+50=54% knockdown?
Str: 10
Unarmed; 300
5+110= 115% knockdown?
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hehe it was Example... but please show me someone who will get 300 unarmed... And if someone does then he/she deserve 95% (i thing that is always cap) KD...
But i must say i'm not against HH with KD anymore.
Other thing is HtH evede perk. As we all know, guy shoting from minigun is easy target. But HtH fighter even standing in 1 pleace isn't that easy. So maybe this perk could give AC (or some part of it) even when standing still when both hand slots are empty?
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For me everything seems fine, sure as long as you have 10 STR and heavy handed it may seem overpowered but Stonewall is the answer for this!
As for HtH Evade I think it shouldn't work when standing in place, In Your Face is enough! However HtH Evade should work when melee or unarmed weapons are equipped!
Apart from that HtH is fine for now, finally you can run-target your enemies!
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"screwed"?
They are kings now.
No money or resources needed.
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Finally bonus HtH attacks fixed :)
180% skill requirement now.
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Mithguar, Kharaam, Haraldx read the damn previous posts now won't you? This thread isn't that long to repeat something that was told already...
HtH Heavy handers arent overpowered - they get smoked by 2 bursts before they can get close enough to punch a burster
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Great now all blue-suits are a threat and any one who get's near can keep me down forever if has enough action points.
I'd lower the maximum potential of the perk for endurance to lower the chance to be knocked down by that trait , let's say +20% resistance if target attacked has 10 endurance , at least some chance to get back on feet if your tough enough.
I just don't understand why to rely the only defence on a perk.
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HtH Heavy handers arent overpowered - they get smoked by 2 bursts before they can get close enough to punch a burster
This also depends on how strong both guys are (HtH and Burster)
How exactly you try to do dmg with normal burst to HtH guy who got high HP (10EN+Lifegivers)+2x toughness+Anticrit perks+high armor and drugs (Psycho+beer :D)
Yes you can shoot far away, but HtH got boost since this wipe.. and that is AC (Armor Class, maxed 90AC bluesuit)
But you are right that HtH normally die to burster.
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That situation is what in your face! Was created for
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@Wallace
since this is a whining thread there is a must of people repeating themselves- would devs care for a single post saying "fix A and nerf B"?
belive me I read whole topics before I post in one!
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Runboy - i meant 2 guys on not high level (5-9) with limited resources (no beer nor psycho) one is burster one is HH HtH
Solar - i meant 2 bursts from farther than 1 hex
Kharaam - Lol since i started this thread i tried my best not to make it a "whine" thread (so i din't use quotes like "AAAARGHH. Danged devs!!11 How dare you make reqs for BROF/BHTHA so high!? you sack!!!11!" etc. but a resonable points. So oficially i'd like to cleave the whiners off from here (if i only could lol)
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But you are right that HtH normally die to burster.
I was replying to this bit. Bursters would usually fry you when you actually achieve what you are meant to be aiming for (getting within 1 hex), so that is why In your face! was made.
To combat bursters from over 1 hex you have the traditional method of making a tank (I'm actually toying with creating a new (high level) perk which stops AP reducing your DT) or you have the new option of making a dodger char and hoping you get in with enough HP left to beat his face in.
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No hard feelings Wallace!
Everything is now fine Brof and bonus hth attacks are from 180% skill
you got AC to be able to reach enemy, and in your face to survive (give him a chance)
well done devteam!
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new option of making a dodger char
that would be so awesome to keep at least a part of AC for HtH build when standing! In your face! is great idea, but will it work with "ranged" melee weapons like sledge hammer and spear? These weapons let you attack from 2 hex distance from your target and without AC and in your face! working you are dead meat :(
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that would be so awesome to keep at least a part of AC for HtH build when standing! In your face! is great idea, but will it work with "ranged" melee weapons like sledge hammer and spear? These weapons let you attack from 2 hex distance from your target and without AC and in your face! working you are dead meat :(
This makes one of the best melee weapons (supersledge) the worst weapon... would changing In Your Face (sometime in the future) to work on 2hexes while holding a 2hex range weapon be an option?
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This makes one of the best melee weapons (supersledge) the worst weapon... would changing In Your Face (sometime in the future) to work on 2hexes while holding a 2hex range weapon be an option?
I actually see that as an opportunity to counter a foe's In Your Face! with spear/supersledge
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I assure you, i read all the posts. At start i wasfor nerfing HH to the ground. Now i would rather tweak it a little. To make it little less awesome at lvl1 and same as it is (or better) for high lvls. But it's no longer game breaking for me.
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Nah... It might be good within RT but it sucks in TB. So no need to tinker with it. HtH got a little upgraded and thanks to HH more interesting.
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I actually see that as an opportunity to counter a foe's In Your Face! with spear/supersledge
Well I don't know... when hth guy rushes at a hammeradin the first one will have full ac when at 2hex. With AC ~170 and no perception bonus for melee I suppose one could hit the brawler with 250+ skill.
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170 AC? You mean someone will actually want to sacrifice most perks to rise AC to a significant level, crippling the build for only not getting hit? Even so... whenever thatbuild would stopped running he'd be in serious trouble...
I won't believe wasting perks on AC is good idea unless you got a build for high AC to prove it that can do good in the harsh wasteland?
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1v1 200 AC ninjas with in your face will defeat moast of enemyes
for example, snipers, i can run with my -200 chance to be hited up in the front of the sniper and let in your face do it's job till i kill him
other example, bursters, same shit, longer combat
trowers allready have to stay far to avoid FF
EW like snipers
and against other HtH, well, an interesting fight
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Mithguar, Kharaam, Haraldx read the damn previous posts now won't you? This thread isn't that long to repeat something that was told already...
HtH Heavy handers arent overpowered - they get smoked by 2 bursts before they can get close enough to punch a burster
its truth, i normally carry a 10mm SMG in my second slot with any of mi alts (none of them SG) just to kill unarmed guys who gets too close, even with 45-60% SG im able to kill guys with 1 or 2 bursts. I feel like unarmed power is just an illusion :-X.
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For me everything seems fine, sure as long as you have 10 STR and heavy handed it may seem overpowered but Stonewall is the answer for this!
As for HtH Evade I think it shouldn't work when standing in place, In Your Face is enough! However HtH Evade should work when melee or unarmed weapons are equipped!
Apart from that HtH is fine for now, finally you can run-target your enemies!
Wait, run-target? How do you do that? regular targeting doesn't seem to work.
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1v1 200 AC ninjas with in your face will defeat moast of enemyes
for example, snipers, i can run with my -200 chance to be hited up in the front of the sniper and let in your face do it's job till i kill him
other example, bursters, same shit, longer combat
trowers allready have to stay far to avoid FF
EW like snipers
and against other HtH, well, an interesting fight
Care to share you build?
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Wait, run-target? How do you do that? regular targeting doesn't seem to work.
You can change in Config to "alway run" option.
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Care to share you build?
You can play around with the planner. there are 4 perks which add a direct 120. there is a perk which doubles the AC from your agility (a potential extra +30) and kamikaze adds +40 AC I believe. and then there is afcoarse your starting AC. assuming you have 10 agility. you get a nice 30AC to start with.
All this ends up to a nice AC of 220.
Either way. I'm currently rather confused about a rather important matter. Whetever AC is capped at 90 or not. because everything might matter very little if there is a 90 ac cap.
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Whetever AC is capped at 90 or not. because everything might matter very little if there is a 90 ac cap.
It is, but hopefully will be fixed.
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It is, but hopefully will be fixed.
I hope it will be soon, not "soon" :D
@GroeneAppel- 220 AC How exactly. I think 180 is max. 10 AG*3*2(livewire)+40(kamikaze)+40(dodger+)+40(hthevade+)=180
I dont think Dodger and Dodger+ would stack, or will they? Could you answer Solar?
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They will
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As far as i know AC is caped at 90.
You cant have more.
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DocAN yeah i have noticed it :) but Solar said the will remove cap "soon"
220 AC is a lot. Big number. We shall see if it works properly.
And a question to a almighty DEV Solar.
Will it be possible for HtH Evade Perk to work when wielding melee or unarmed weapon?
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Yup
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Removing cap from AC would be great in my opinion, just because it adds another unique build to the world :) Seeing everyone as Sniper or BG was really boring.
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Removing cap from AC would be great in my opinion, just because it adds another unique build to the world :) Seeing everyone as Sniper or BG was really boring.
Yeah, but I think we all gonna be bored of max AC jinxed trolls pretty soon.
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Yeah, but I think we all gonna be bored of max AC jinxed trolls pretty soon.
I did some tests yesterday with a Jinxed/90 AC char and it was really harsh for my ennemies to shoot me (some of them were high-level).
If you remove the cap of AC higher, we gonna have trolls with all unarmed perks in bluesuits running everywhere. We will not be able to shoot them when they will be at 1 hex of us (with the perks In Your Face!), and we will not be able to shoot them when they will be at 15+ hex.
So, in 2 weeks there will be a swarm of unarmed bluesuits running everywhere just for LOL U NOOB U CANT SHOOT ME.
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put more into % - combat skill I guess.
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Put more skills points ? That is unfair.
Then, in a side we have basic characters who need to put more than 220 skill points in their weapon skill, have gun and armor to be efficient, and in an other side we have HtH characters who are efficient without any stuff.
HtH characters dont need to craft, pex and farm for free, never loose any stuff, and now they are a kind of mix between Neo from Matrix and Ninja.
Seriously, fallout is Madmax, not Dragon Ball Z.
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thath's why I say 180 AC is high enough!
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I do urge people to keep in mind. that to have this amazing 220 AC. that they will have to use pretty much all their perks for this. not leaving much left for things like HP and damage. I honestly would never make a 220 ac hth myself, you would just be to weak even when you reach your actual target. Keep in mind, the moment that you stop moving to punch somoene, you lose your AC so you still suck as hth when its 1v2 or more.
Afcoarse when you stop moving to punch somoene, or knock him down or whatever. If they do get a shot trough. even with the 50% hit chance (using the in your face perk) having used all those perks for AC you will probally not have allot of HP or resistances. Surely you could compensate for this by using gear. but that changes the whole thing, now you as hth risk objects aswell!
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Put more skills points ? That is unfair.
Then, in a side we have basic characters who need to put more than 220 skill points in their weapon skill, have gun and armor to be efficient, and in an other side we have HtH characters who are efficient without any stuff.
HtH characters dont need to craft, pex and farm for free, never loose any stuff, and now they are a kind of mix between Neo from Matrix and Ninja.
Seriously, fallout is Madmax, not Dragon Ball Z.
Fallout is not Madmax, it's Fallout, and FOnline isn't Fallout, it's FOnline, but they are all in post-apocalyptic universe.
1. Skill cap is at 300%, not 220%.
2. You need to sacrifice perks to get that high AC
3. Jinxed affects your enemies, your friends and you as well, it's trait after all
4. What's the point of perks, which can allow you to get 200 AC, if cap is at 90? Is there any other stat in FOnline which is capped as well (I'm not talking about 100% resistances and 300% skills)?
5. If AC is so overpowered, then nerf it, but remove cap, because now it is "omg, I wasted perks, because 90 AC is max".
6. You can't even imagine how many different builds I've already seen, it's not 90% Unarmed chars and it won't be 90% Unarmed Jinxed chars.
7. Unarmed are only good 1v1, and if someone runs from them they can't do a shit, perk for increased movement speed (Bonus Move?) would be great for Unarmed chars. If you are standing 1 hex from unarmed and trying to shoot him, then it's your own fault for being a fool, Unarmeds aren't that OP as everyone thinks, try to PK with them.
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90 cap will (hopefully) go
Variable speed is not possible on the engine, else we would have done that long ago :(
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Variable speed is not possible on the engine, else we would have done that long ago :(
Than why I saw GMs running with different speed many times.
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Than why I saw GMs running with different speed many times.
It's only possible on 3d critters afaik.
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Hmm no, iirc I ran faster than players in last session but not as fast as some other GMs. Worth testing.