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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: avv on July 30, 2011, 06:41:10 pm
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Just wondering what sort of gathering system there's gonna be after wipe.
From previous experiences can be said that cooldown-based gathering only rewards cheating and relogging, plus it's not funny to go mining in regular intervals.
Char skill-based gathering only supports minmaxed alts.
Long time ago we had unlimited gathering, it was probably best of them all. Only limit was your patience and pain resistance (after 600 ores your fingers are sore, especially due to the drop-down menu). But it encourages autoclickers and is probably not good for gameplay if players spend all their time in safe gathering areas clicking a pile or rocks.
I know it's not polite to ask for leaks but would be nice to know what's coming.
Hopefully it will have the following characteristics:
Unlimited -> makes relogging and dual logging useless
Unsafe -> impossible to use autoclickers and bots
No bonuses from char skills -> no need to use alts
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I don't get how you can say that ungaurded mines are safe, but I agree with you on all other points however.
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Let's hope it will be fair-non-cheat-able-and-easy-to-get-gathering
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i think this is good idea
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If you want to keep unsafe mines, at least make more of them so that one don't have to travel to Redding for few ores when he hangs around Hub.
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If you want to keep unsafe mines, at least make more of them so that one don't have to travel to Redding for few ores when he hangs around Hub.
Yeah at Glow, radiation is good anti-clicker-bot. Or constantly respawning mutated pigrats who like to eat miners, but they must respawn really fast.
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If you want to keep unsafe mines, at least make more of them so that one don't have to travel to Redding for few ores when he hangs around Hub.
Done and done (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=9948.msg84666#msg84666).
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Yeah at Glow, radiation is good anti-clicker-bot. Or constantly respawning mutated pigrats who like to eat miners, but they must respawn really fast.
Both are accessible by other players, which is enough. Even though radiation in glow is cool.
Bigger problem are unlimited safe materials from bases.
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Gathering could be abolished all together and those who do just wait at specific locations waiting waiting waiting waiting.
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No bonuses from char skills -> no need to use alts
this horrible sentence is becoming more and more used for justify suggestions that will make people create more alts.
The conclusion is simply: the problem in this game is the alting, there are many suggestions about how solve this, now its time to devs to work on this, basically the actual lvl and skill sistem is useless.
Even some type of idiot xp system like the one of The Elder Scrolls sound better to me than this actual shitty thing.
My personally solution is: make combat skills and non-combat skills grow in a separate way, while combat skills have a limit, like lvl21, and lead to certain build, non-combat skills can be upraised in a diferent scale of lvls depending of the SPECIAL too. So you can be good in both things.
Another way is give good bonus to old chars, something like +5% of damage when you get 300,000xp, +2DT at 350,000xp and so on.
i really hate to have a lot of alts, but only one char per IP conection is idiot
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Actually, i think what would make mining less of a chore, is to make ores dug up in stacks.
1 Hammer swing on a LQ pile, = 6 ores per swing, but 1 swing on a HQ pile = 2 ores, so you still have to click a few times.
Also, a little script that makes it impossible to mine more ore if you're overweight.
So it rewards people who click the minerals and ore piles themselves more then mouse recorders, since it makes it easier to do things quickly, and the new script to keep mouse recorders from sitting there and using this improved speed to gain even more resources.
Faster mining for players, slower mining for bots, = Win?
-Ulrek-
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Actually, i think what would make mining less of a chore, is to make ores dug up in stacks.
1 Hammer swing on a LQ pile, = 6 ores per swing, but 1 swing on a HQ pile = 2 ores, so you still have to click a few times.
Also, a little script that makes it impossible to mine more ore if you're overweight.
So it rewards people who click the minerals and ore piles themselves more then mouse recorders, since it makes it easier to do things quickly, and the new script to keep mouse recorders from sitting there and using this improved speed to gain even more resources.
Faster mining for players, slower mining for bots, = Win?
-Ulrek-
make character with 10 ST and all perks for weight and you'll have 212 kg ;)
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How about AT LEAST make players able to "fight" with cooldowns. Use of appropriate tool will shorten the cooldown. For example mining with standard sledgehammer gives the normal cooldown but mining with Super Sledge you only get 1/4 of it. Same with fibers, you get less cooldown when cutting them with combat knife, etc., etc.
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How about AT LEAST make players able to "fight" with cooldowns. Use of appropriate tool will shorten the cooldown. For example mining with standard sledgehammer gives the normal cooldown but mining with Super Sledge you only get 1/4 of it.
I remember suggesting something like this, except I made it where it would simply give more ore for your gathering.
gather with sledge = 1 ore + 3 Cooldown
gather with super sledge = 2 ore + 3 Cooldown
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Cooldowns suck, everyone hates them. If anything they should at least be lowered..
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I enjoy cooldowns tbh. Makes my slaves more valuable.
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So it rewards people who click the minerals and ore piles themselves more then mouse recorders, since it makes it easier to do things quickly, and the new script to keep mouse recorders from sitting there and using this improved speed to gain even more resources.
Actually it's all the same whether someone stays awake clicking some pile of rocks whole night or leaves autoclicker to do it. Player's shouldn't be encouraged to spend all day long in some hole hoarding resources. Gathering needs to be fun and fluently part of the gameplay, rather than tiresome work that you have to do so that you have items to have fun with.
How about AT LEAST make players able to "fight" with cooldowns. Use of appropriate tool will shorten the cooldown. For example mining with standard sledgehammer gives the normal cooldown but mining with Super Sledge you only get 1/4 of it. Same with fibers, you get less cooldown when cutting them with combat knife, etc., etc.
Cooldowns just got to go. As long as they exist, players are encouraged to cheat. If they are too high, they are pointless. If they can be shortened with better tools, those tools become constant and make the weaker tools pointless. But better tools could have a point in the gameplay: some materials could only be mined with advanced tools.
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The cooldown times may be changed, but they won't be removed completely - we'd rather add more ways of obtaining resources with some tradeoff, for example a place when you need to fight for it.
For now, as there is no other possibilities to obtain them, cooldowns might be annoying and pointless, but should we add other ways - then we need to retain those cooldowns, otherwise no one would use those other places.
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The cooldown times may be changed, but they won't be removed completely - we'd rather add more ways of obtaining resources with some tradeoff, for example a place when you need to fight for it.
For now, as there is no other possibilities to obtain them, cooldowns might be annoying and pointless, but should we add other ways - then we need to retain those cooldowns, otherwise no one would use those other places.
Current cooldowns encourage cheating and there's no way over it. If you transform the cooldowns for example forcing the player to control the char for 5 mins to get some material, it's even worse pain.
Risk - reward setting is good and there's nothing wrong with it. Just needs to be made sure that it also is cheat-proof and the risk is unavoidable. Unlike bos pickpocket and enclave abuse.
The point is that all gathering can be based on risk rather than enforced cooldowns. It's just the cheaper materials are just less risky to gather but never 100% safe. Reason to this is because 100% safe means a chance to use bots. In addition if things are too safe, it also means they aren't that exciting. People gather and craft so that they can have excitement with the items. Can't the gathering itself be exciting?
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The cooldown times may be changed, but they won't be removed completely - we'd rather add more ways of obtaining resources with some tradeoff, for example a place when you need to fight for it.
It's already implented - Redding/Gecko mine. If you are a crafter you will be raped by pvp apes camping out there, but if you have fighting build and even win you don't get enough of a reward because 5-6 hq mineras/ore with current item requirements is a bad joke.
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current system is pure crapp couse players who have brains just create tent with 5 1lvl (miner1, miner2 etc.) chars near HQ mine , use proxy and dont give a fuck about all those cooldownds story. But as always this system hits only noobs and begginers. So in fact its create even more inbalance ingame than if there wont be cooldowns :D (and again sacrying away a lot of new players who just started) Human nature is to always seek the easiest way to achievie the goal so.... like in real life for example in socialism system (all those tax crapp and social care) in which we are living in, rich smart people use tax advisors to avoid paying stupid taxes for "social shit" by using complex system of tax havens.... result is the same like we have on 2238 cooldown system, rich and smart are even more "in plus" than those poor and "not that smart" people.
so lets make: "More farming less crafting" system. This game is more about shooting the gun... not swinging the hammer....
this gona encourage people to go together to farm/hunt stuff so there is gona be more people on the wasteland , more fights between players. Now even if there is 200pppl on the server there are hardly 20-30 on the wasteland the rest are hidden in tents/bases or iddling in ncr its the wrong direction.
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Cooldowns have positive things too right now nobody can gather mercs at the mine and say they are there so I can mine safely but if cooldown is gone there is nothing to force a stop. Therefore a group of 10 can say that all we want is to mine and to not get killed we bring our mercs with us oh and its true we are from one faction but we have lower carry weight so we go in a group of 10. Though new system will change mercs still 10 player should be able bring a lot of mercs there if not they would bring 20 char or more...
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Some cooldowns really need to be removed. With king of the most nonsenses cooldowns: repair cooldown. If you want make a cooldown, my dear devs, first ask yourself: what is the point of this cooldown? Did it really ballanced game or just pissed of new players and thoese who try to play fair? And what is the point of slow travelling? Why you try to force us to using cars? Relog timer DOESN'T WORK so remove it! Sorry - it works. For newbies! Like slow traveling or gathering cooldown. Start to listen players! We playing for fun not realism! Idea of gathering or crafting cooldown is ok. Just let players make/gather more stuff/resources if you try to make "crafting" server. For example we can gather 7 hq minerals or 4 hq ore in one cooldown. Just let us gather 7 hq minerals or 7 hq ore.
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Well i'm everything but developer but farming XP with repairing would be a exploit, since you can just get a pile of weared weapons and repair them, getting XP in no time...if you have enough stuff to repair.
Relog timer also works and if you bypass it you get your ass banned. Stop fucking screaming! If i were a dev, i'll be fucking sick and tired of whining, bitching, DO WANTS, GM ABUSE and now, SHOUTING. I'd say fuck it, no more updates, screw this all, i have a life! Am i fucking paid for this? NO I DON'T. It's just. My. Fucking. Hobby. When i'm tired of this, i'm throwing it. Stop. Now.
[/hysteria]
Oh thank God i'm not a developer, or else you'll see 2238 DEAD.
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if you bypass it you get your ass banned
ahha orly ? i gues u dont play fonline2238 maybe.
and about reapir cooldown vs exp --> whats the problem make xp rate for repair lower (that low that it wont be very good method to exp char) but as always the price of such feature as we have now, pays simple people who just want to get their stuff fixed.
eh...
From the other hand.. whats wrong about exoping on repair ? people exp their chars at crafting/doc/fa so why repair is worst ?
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Of course, when the GM is not around. If he's around and notice it, then BAD LUCK. It's still illegal.
Repair cooldown isn't even the biggest nonsense - bigger nonsense is to delete the feature to repair the weapons to restore their value. Then, you could gain XP AND money. However, repair can be easily botted. Just stack your items in the inventory, click on the script and go drink tea. It's not a big surprise, devs just make this unprofitable, so you actually invest time in INTERESTING AND INTRIGUING gameplay.
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This game is more about shooting the gun... not swinging the hammer....
(http://www.falloutnow.de/forum/Smileys/retro/facepalm.gif)
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(http://www.falloutnow.de/forum/Smileys/retro/facepalm.gif)
... well it is about fireing not about sitting there mineing. do you enter sit and mine in fallout 1 and 2? .... beat not. you fired your lazer and fired 1000 rounds of 5mm at deathclaws not sit around saying well hmm maybe i should mine so i can not even have enough materials to make something . then come back to repeat mineing.(yeah thats fun)
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so lets make: "More farming less crafting" system.
Yeah, I guess this is where balance fixing should be done as well. When we launched the game, it was easy to farm stuff, then we pushed it a bit to the other extreme.
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... well it is about fireing not about sitting there mineing. do you enter sit and mine in fallout 1 and 2? .... beat not. you fired your lazer and fired 1000 rounds of 5mm at deathclaws not sit around saying well hmm maybe i should mine so i can not even have enough materials to make something . then come back to repeat mineing.(yeah thats fun)
Yeah, we all know that Fallout is an emulation of Counterstrike in 2d Isoperspective, not a game offering multiple solutions to any situtation, right.
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Well i'm everything but developer but farming XP with repairing would be a exploit, since you can just get a pile of weared weapons and repair them, getting XP in no time...if you have enough stuff to repair.
You mean like farming xp with science is now?
No one is going to level an alt that way as it's way too slow.
Repair cooldown doesn't make much sense and is annoying as hell. If it's kept, it should be cumulative like gathering and crafting cooldowns. The 1 repair, wait 1 minute, another repair, another minute of waiting, ... leads to nothing except people wasting time. It's a game, that means playing not waiting.
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and ofcooz as I wrote before "smart" people can "walk over" that cooldown by opening 2/3 windows with repairing chars and repair big amount of stuff in a notime without feeling that stupid cooldown.
Cooldownds (minning/crafting/repairng doesnt matter) are encouraging alting.
(http://www.falloutnow.de/forum/Smileys/retro/facepalm.gif)
I can answer you the same way:
(http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/30804/small/Picard_Facepalm_small.png)
Its MMO game my proposistion gona lead to more INTERACTION BETWEEN PLAYERS, u even dont play the game so u probalby dont know that wasteland are empty like hell. One of the reason is that players are sitting in their bases/tents gathering and crafting instead of cooperating to farm some stuff - qwllll really.
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Yeah, we all know that Fallout is an emulation of Counterstrike in 2d Isoperspective, not a game offering multiple solutions to any situtation, right.
First of all, FOnline is a game and just like any game it should be FUN. Mining and crafting feels like a job, only the richest can let themselves do some PvP as everyone else is afraid of losing his stuff. You craft something -> you lose it -> you can't craft it back quickly - not fun. Besides, forcing everyone to craft and doing basically EVERYTHING to stop people from farming (limiting numbers of encounters per player, making farmed weapons deterorated etc.) doesn't really sound like a "game offering multiple solutions to any situation".
PS. Now I know how Surf got his 150% speech!
(http://www.falloutnow.de/forum/Smileys/retro/facepalm.gif)
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"Fun" is being experienced in an objective manner. For one crafting is pure boredom, for the other one is enjoyable. So it would be nice to cease these general assumptions before you bother to post them. :)
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haha its like saying that "icecreams are tasty" isnt the thruth couse there are some people who dont like them....
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Since there is a lot of "silly people this is shooting game" why not brainstorm a repeatable quest which may reward you with minerals/ores/fruit/fiber/you get the point now. So instead of you clicking button which doesn't involve shooting to get what you want, you click button to shoot and get what you want. You want player interaction, make it hard to do solo so you need to buddy up with one or two people (or more!).
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Since there is a lot of "silly people this is shooting game" why not brainstorm a repeatable quest which may reward you with minerals/ores/fruit/fiber/you get the point now. So instead of you clicking button which doesn't involve shooting to get what you want, you click button to shoot and get what you want. You want player interaction, make it hard to do solo so you need to buddy up with one or two people (or more!).
Bitching about something is a lot easier and generally more preferred by a big chunk of our dear community than to actually do something.
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Since there is a lot of "silly people this is shooting game" why not brainstorm a repeatable quest which may reward you with minerals/ores/fruit/fiber/you get the point now. So instead of you clicking button which doesn't involve shooting to get what you want, you click button to shoot and get what you want. You want player interaction, make it hard to do solo so you need to buddy up with one or two people (or more!).
why quest ? U can just put inside those carvans (sf/ncr/reno etc.) some stuff like minerals/fibers and other crafting shit and its sloved. Now carvans are funny couse they carry no stuff xD On reqiuem this system is working. Little balance and its good to go.
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considering that it is "soon" till wipe i figure there is plenty of time where you could think up some ideas, plus if you go with the quests route of solving the problem you effectively add more content.
oh wait! what was i thinking, we dont need to shoot npcs for stuff in quests when we can shoot npcs for stuff just walking outside anyway and that stuff outside is already there...
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"Fun" is being experienced in an objective manner. For one crafting is pure boredom, for the other one is enjoyable.
Waiting is never fun. And this is the biggest problem of 2238. Did someone really need repair cooldown? Really? Or very long crafting and gathering hq resources cooldown? Why i can't make 2 of P90 in one cooldown? Or why i can't make more than 300 pieces 223 ammo? That's why this way to get stuff isn't funny. It's just no effective. Maybe good in start. I make brotherhood armors only because i can't buy (or it's hard to find them in stores) but every time it's pissed me off. Yes - i do fast relogs and dug with 2 chars. But i am not feel guilty. This system forced me to make fast relogs.
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Yes - i do fast relogs and dug with 2 chars. But i am not feel guilty. This system forced me to make fast relogs.
Bullshit.
If you do nothing but digging digging digging digging all the time no wonder it gets boring for you. Everything done all the time is getting repitive and boring. Are you forced to do everything at once all the time, rinse and repeat, then do the next batch of repitive tasks? No. You can just do something different with your character until the previous cooldown is set to 0 again. But oh no! People want instant gratification, autofellatio all the time! Why do play fair like everyone else, why be creative and don't have a character for each little task, why not go with your friends to mine or to some public unguarded mine to maybe even fight for the ressources, when people can just cheat like schoolchildren having to pass a test and then even have the nerves to openly admit in the forum. Way to go!
Oh the pity cheaters, they are "forced" to cheat. :'(
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Bullshit.
If you do nothing but digging digging digging digging all the time no wonder it gets boring for you. Everything done all the time is getting repitive and boring. Are you forced to do everything at once all the time, rinse and repeat, then do the next batch of repitive tasks? No. You can just do something different with your character until the previous cooldown is set to 0 again. But oh no! People want instant gratification, autofellatio all the time! Why do play fair like everyone else, why be creative and don't have a character for each little task, why not go with your friends to mine or to some public unguarded mine to maybe even fight for the ressources, when people can just cheat like schoolchildren having to pass a test and then even have the nerves to openly admit in the forum. Way to go!
Oh the pity cheaters, they are "forced" to cheat. :'(
Damn yea sure you can do something other to bad you cant go to any other town because it will take shitload time, cant go to unprotected towns because u will lose your minerals or time geting from respawn.
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Dropping the previously mined ores/minerals at your tent while you do something different is not an option then?
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If you do nothing but digging digging digging digging all the time no wonder it gets boring for you. Everything done all the time is getting repitive and boring. Are you forced to do everything at once all the time, rinse and repeat, then do the next batch of repitive tasks? No. You can just do something different with your character until the previous cooldown is set to 0 again.
It's not fun to stop whatever you were doing and going mining every 20 mins. It's funnier to concentrate on one thing at a time and do it as effectively as possible.
But oh no! People want instant gratification, autofellatio all the time! Why do play fair like everyone else, why be creative and don't have a character for each little task, why not go with your friends to mine or to some public unguarded mine to maybe even fight for the ressources, when people can just cheat like schoolchildren having to pass a test and then even have the nerves to openly admit in the forum. Way to go!
Oh the pity cheaters, they are "forced" to cheat. :'(
People want to have fun. To have fun, they need items because items have comprehensive qualities. The more items they have, the more fun they can have because items are lost while having fun and they need to be replenished. Getting items, especially BAs and buffout isn't fun so people try to avoid this boredom the best they can, even by cheating. Plus they have friends that need services and help aswell, so some puny game rules are nothing compared to the urge to achieve shared victory with a team.
Seriously, don't hit the messenger. People here are telling how everyday things are ingame, handing out protips helps nothing. If problems related to cooldowns aren't acknowledged, players sure as hell won't stop cheating just because they are told not to. Banning won't help, nothing else will except changing the system cheat-proof. If nothing is done, players will just shrug and continue like always.
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Surf you just tell me about 1 of 3 option what i write what about rest :D?
Damn yea sure you can do something other to bad you cant go to any other town because it will take shitload time, cant go to unprotected towns because u will lose your minerals or time geting from respawn.
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It's not fun to stop whatever you were doing and going mining every 20 mins. It's funnier to concentrate on one thing at a time and do it as effectively as possible.
aka munchkining
People want to have fun. To have fun, they need items because items have comprehensive qualities.
Yes, because there is only one way to aquire items, right? Oh...
But you'll now will say that you want it as fast as possible! (instant gratification, autofellatio, as written above) Who cares about buying the armor from some other player (pff, one would need to interact with other people, disgusting!) when you can just cheat, use a proxy or w/e and do the same thing with your crafter alt, right?! After all, the poor players ofcourse are forced to cheat.
Plus they have friends that need services and help aswell, so some puny game rules are nothing compared to the urge to achieve shared victory with a team.
I don't want to know you people in real life if each "puny rule" is just smuggled around with cheap methods and cheating.
Seriously, don't hit the messenger. People here are telling how everyday things are ingame, handing out protips helps nothing. If problems related to cooldowns aren't acknowledged, players sure as hell won't stop cheating just because they are told not to. Banning won't help, nothing else will except changing the system cheat-proof. If nothing is done, players will just shrug and continue like always.
No one was handing out protips, I just showed you examples that not everyone is munchkining his way through the game to get everything as fast as possible ignoring the rules just because they don't like mechanic XY. Why even set up rules then? Would you appreciate if a GM would pop up in a town, and set it to non-pvp "just for the lulz"? Would you understand when a dev shows up in your base and removes all the items there for some amibigious reasons? Wouldn't it be totally cool if all the team suddenly doesn't give a single shit about rules anymore? Since you don't seem to give much to rules, you probably won't care either, hm?
Look, I even agree with you all that the cooldowns are set a bit too high. I've never really had a problem with them since I had enough to do with my character, but I see where you are coming from. But they are needed for some parts as we saw in previous "seasons". If it would be me, I would just set every one of them to only half the time, or maybe just the 1/4 of it. But let's see how it will be after the wipe.
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Oh the pity cheaters, they are "forced" to cheat. :'(
Even if not forced, people are encouraged to alting and cheating. It's simple - with fast relogs and mining alts you are able to mine a lot more stuff than with one character. That's the way it goes, people are like water - always are looking for the shortest and the easiest way to go through.
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Actually Wichura is quite right by cheating the game is easier and jailing or banning can't do much against it since the chance to get caught is small, still there are players who don't use fast relogs and dual logging not because they can't but because they don't want to. So far I didn't dual log why because I can manage without that too.
Getting items is easy and to have fun there is no need for plasma rifle and BA or CA mkII. Its easy to roll and even cooler with metal armor or combat leather jacket and as far as weapons go its possible to kill a fighter who wears a combat armor with a mauser, heh even with a pipe rifle if you go in turn based combat... but for serious fights the best is fn fall, rocket launchers and laser rifles all of these are easy to get.
Personally as I stated previously the removal of cooldowns would give a valid reason to camp the mines with mercs
Cooldowns have positive things too right now nobody can gather mercs at the mine and say they are there so I can mine safely but if cooldown is gone there is nothing to force a stop. Therefore a group of 10 can say that all we want is to mine and to not get killed we bring our mercs with us oh and its true we are from one faction but we have lower carry weight so we go in a group of 10. Though new system will change mercs still 10 player should be able bring a lot of mercs there if not they would bring 20 char or more...
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You can just do something different with your character until the previous cooldown is set to 0 again. But oh no! People want instant gratification, autofellatio all the time!
Does watching videos on YouTube in the meantime counts?
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Yes, because there is only one way to aquire items, right? Oh...
But you'll now will say that you want it as fast as possible! (instant gratification, autofellatio, as written above) Who cares about buying the armor from some other player (pff, one would need to interact with other people, disgusting!) when you can just cheat, use a proxy or w/e and do the same thing with your crafter alt, right?! After all, the poor players ofcourse are forced to cheat.
Actually gangs and their members (who are also top providers of player interaction) are the top cheaters since they have to compete against other gangs or they get stomped in tc. So player interaction speeds up the desire to cheat.
And what comes to getting everythin asap, that's how it is. The game rewards those with lots of good items, characters and whatever property. It gives power over other players, or power to withstand the attempts of other players.
I don't want to know you people in real life if each "puny rule" is just smuggled around with cheap methods and cheating.
There are groups that do not cheat, but they are then stomped by the cheaters and might leave the game if nothing is done about it.
No one was handing out protips, I just showed you examples that not everyone is munchkining his way through the game to get everything as fast as possible ignoring the rules just because they don't like mechanic XY.
But it's not helping. Player's wont change their habits and goals if the game allows them to continue.
Why even set up rules then? Would you appreciate if a GM would pop up in a town, and set it to non-pvp "just for the lulz"? Would you understand when a dev shows up in your base and removes all the items there for some amibigious reasons? Wouldn't it be totally cool if all the team suddenly doesn't give a single shit about rules anymore? Since you don't seem to give much to rules, you probably won't care either, hm?
Rules only matter if they are monitored and criminals are punished.
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What can change the nature of the man?
I really see no possibility for this discussion to end - some are stating that they are doing what they are doing because game mechanics are like they are, and some are stating that they just do not like such approach. Everything is fine - everyone has own opinion on that.
Though the problem is still unsolved, yet I'm unsure if it can be solved as easily as some of you are stating ('just remove damned waiting!').
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Well here's something from my POV:
Currently gathering is indeed boring and irritating if you try to do anything better alone, as there's little you can do with your own resources unless you wait a lot.
I've got no problem with the existence of cooldown, but time frame you have to wait is very unlucky - too little to complete another job and too long to just wait it on place.
Was it up to hour it'd be little problem for one to deal with it, even if you could mine only little more resources than in current 20min frame.
With the stuff you create, travelling speeds, etc, you really feel sorry for yourself by not just buying it (Laser Pistol costs 340 fully charged, creating empty one costs you minning for metal parts, alloys and venturing for electronic parts - all of this takes much longer than just shoveling shit for one.)
BUT
That's for doing it ALONE in MULTIPLAYER game.
There's little problem with anything mentioned above, as you can choose good strategy, have multiple friends do one action to accumulate resources and then you can just craft.
There are absolutely no restrictions except for carry weight for gathering, and that makes stuff easy.
If anything items were so much spread that nobody was interested in gathering anymore. Not saying crafting was easy, but economics still resulted in item overflow.
If anything I'd love to know about crafting facilities, as that's what really sets pace of item obtaining and the difficulty of doing so (hello MFCs noteverworthtobecrafted), for gathering just get more gatherer (http://amnesia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Gatherers) friends.
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hmm.... I don't like the mugging. If I say that, can there be like a 20 year cool down? When I mine, I eventualy cap hit the cooldown max and then I start to multi-task. I come back to see all my work is gone.. and some jerk running away with a grin. :'(
same goes with ugly PKers... but 1 step at a time ;D
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I have 300 repair and have the same cooldown as someone with 20 repair. There should be a skill based balanced similar to first aid.
On gathering I have thought about using current stats to adjust how things are gathered. Something like if ST is 7+ you will get 2 ores, ST 10 will get 3. Along with a high EN that will add a lower amount of gathering time added per item. Outdoors could raise the cooldown time limit.
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I have 300 repair and have the same cooldown as someone with 20 repair. There should be a skill based balanced similar to first aid.
On gathering I have thought about using current stats to adjust how things are gathered. Something like if ST is 7+ you will get 2 ores, ST 10 will get 3. Along with a high EN that will add a lower amount of gathering time added per item. Outdoors could raise the cooldown time limit.
sounds like another min maxed alt which isn't exactly the sought after answer. What we can do is wait and see how the crafting system has changed so that we can judged whether or not the gathering cooldown problem still applies. iirc tier 3 will involve schematics but will it be as simple as obtain it once and remember how to make ca, ba, camk2 from then on out or will it be required each time? and will you be able to stay safe in faction base and craft away with not a care in the world in the simple workbench (or will there be special facilities linked with domination mode or dungeons created or simply making sierra or mariposa more attractive places)?
gathering may be a bitch but it ultimately leads to crafting and what about their cooldowns? oh wait i remember... alts alts alts, fast relog, multilogging etc...
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can second on the encouraging of "cheating" and safe hq mining.
since i started mining & crafing on reloging, i was making 48 hq ores per 2 hours; crafting BAs, DKS and plasma rifles took 26 per 2 hours. I had to "mine" hq minerals only once, 12 slaves mined 600+ for me in a few short hours and i still have 200+ left. i estabilished myself in a week, when i was selling 1,3 mil worth of stuff to C88.
in all this time in redding HQ mine i wasnt shot once. there was one incident, when some crafty sonofa stole 4 ores from me when mining. and thats about it. all my mining characters were lvl 1 and had 26 hp.
maybe the hq mining should not be that aviable. maybe you should learn it by a quest with some reqs, as you did in FO2 with skinning geckos. im not saying that would put a stop to the reloging mining, but it sure would make it a bit harder. and harder aint exactly what you go for when you are looking for the easy way to get through.
and its hq ores, aint it. should be mined carefuly and with some expertise. im sure my 26 hp ncr-basement dweler didnt know shit bout how to recognise HQ ores from brahmin goo.
maybe cooldowns should stick to clients. as reloging timeouts do. maybe hq mines should be more hostile than ants or one alien that makes you create another character for mining if you accidentaly aggroed him once.
and.
not to keep it short. irradiation is not actually gonna do well in this. have you ever wondered, where you can meet the cyrilic named guy that holds the "cat burglar" place in your statistics? Glow, thats where. You will be lucky if you meet him without "off" after his name. Be sure to check him with burst or steal, you will be surprised what ammount of good stuff, as well as radiation drugs this guy has.
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What can change the nature of the man?
I really see no possibility for this discussion to end - some are stating that they are doing what they are doing because game mechanics are like they are, and some are stating that they just do not like such approach. Everything is fine - everyone has own opinion on that.
Talking about that cheating is no use, it happens and will happen unless it's not encouraged anymore.
Though the problem is still unsolved, yet I'm unsure if it can be solved as easily as some of you are stating ('just remove damned waiting!').
What can be said for sure is that materials from bases need to go. They are simply autoclicker baits and nothing more. Either for example fibers, meat and fruits have to be tended with materials carried from outside of the base, extracted from some dangerous location or they have to be limited and included in the base price.
Like said, risking is the key. Since death has no meaning, players need to risk their gear to get more gear. I heard encounters and farming them will be buffed, if disassembling weapons provides materials for other supplies it might do it. Just need to make sure those encounters can't be abused with insane powerbuilds or other exploits. And that high science doesn't provide more parts, or everyone is forced to make a science-alt.
Encounter-based materials, like junk, wood and healing powder parts could always be guarded by hostile npcs. Also instead of having to look for them by spamming maps, those areas with materials should be easy to find rather than being randomized. This way the rate of gathering is set by how fast you get rid of their guardians. There could be more and less dangerous areas. The more dangerous - the more materials in encounter. Encounters are good because if you die, you lose your gear. If you leave, you get nothing and the next enc has full enemies again. Only abuse is to use a car because it leaves a visible mark on world map. That could be solved by not allowing players to find materials with a car, or allow distresses in those places so that nobody can come there with a car.
It may sound dumb that everything involves fighting npcs like it was diablo. But managing through the hitpoint-reducing strikes of npcs and dealing damage to them in effective manner is one of the best puzzles there is already ingame. If someone comes up with some clever idea for a puzzle that doesn't involve fighting to find materials that'd be great aswell.
Unsafe mines are pretty fine, players themselves set the difficulty there. Sometimes it's non-existing, sometimes overwhelming but there's always a danger present. Problem is that the level of danger is too random compared to the equipment of the miners. Because of this hq mats could be also achieved elsewhere, like from those farmable encounters.
If there comes an occasion where no pks are present in the mine and someone just gets to mine hundreds and hundreds of ores, there could be some npcs spawning and harassing him. The npcs would loot and leave if the player died so that he can't come back and spam the npc to death.
Safe mines could simply have a global limit that restocks random ammount of ores each 20mins. That's the simpliest way, it's like a cooldown but unavoidable. Maybe the ores get depleted occasionally but safe mines are basically like breadline, handing out free stuff.
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you are somehow right. though there already is too much shooting for a fallout game. sending more aspects towards this way aint gonna help that. not talking about there is something wrong with getting gear for gear only. that threatens by shortage and i believe thats a reason you get something like crafting anyway.
lets not forget not everyone likes to be shooting or shot at. and these people could easily be the last player-"spice" there is left.
getting rid of base supplies would be wrong too. the ammount of mats a real crafter has to keep stacked is almost insane for such a concept. thats beside the rp aspect. i can hardly believe anyone would ever settle in a place that would not provide at least something for him.
sticking cooldowns to the client should be much more effective way how to avoid relogging. might encourage dualloging or even proxies, but thats far harder than simple relogging, is actually considered "criminal behavior" and, in most cases, is easily detectable.
irradiating hq mines and disabling logging off in irradiated areas (same way as its done in the jail) could be another way. and might help the glow, too.
honestly i dont think anything else than hq mats is actual problem. i very rarely see huge ammounts of any mats at traders, that would suggest some "wrong" way of getting these mats. autoclicking fibers for insane supplies and then selling it in any other way than raw is pure nonsense and if anyone wants to go through with that, i say let the poor bastard do it. noone is gonna relog to gather lq ores, if, they will get a pack of slaves. and as far as i understand that, that is getting redone. so, actually, what.
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lets not forget not everyone likes to be shooting or shot at. and these people could easily be the last player-"spice" there is left.
The point is that there should always be some risk or challenge if you want to receive something. Current challenge is to combat the time sinks related to transporting yourself to material extraction locations. Instead of patience the challenge could be something more exciting and fast, fighting is the simple solution but catering for that differend player "spice" would be cool too. Just can't think of something this other set of players would enjoy doing so that it doesn't become plain grind.
getting rid of base supplies would be wrong too. the ammount of mats a real crafter has to keep stacked is almost insane for such a concept. thats beside the rp aspect. i can hardly believe anyone would ever settle in a place that would not provide at least something for him.
If gathering was fast and unlimited, lack of base gathering mats wouldn't be such a big deal. Bases are used for item storage and car park for gangs mostly. The purpose is to send players to outdoors rather than sitting in their base gathering fruits, meat or fiber.
irradiating hq mines and disabling logging off in irradiated areas (same way as its done in the jail) could be another way. and might help the glow, too.
Thought about this, but then big gangs would make one tough anti-rad char to scout and keep rest of the players on worldmap. If the worldmap is radiated, they will move to distance and use a car. But it could be tested.
honestly i dont think anything else than hq mats is actual problem.
This isn't about economics but getting the mats so that it's enjoyable and cheat-free. And beleave me, fiber-autoclicker is real and why not meat as well.
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i have too agree with avv. putting these things on the map in random encounters gets people out there in places where they can encounter each other, also it would help for people who hang around in the south because they wouldn't need to walk or drive to the north everytime they want a few HQ ores. right now theres no one roaming the waste exept noobs and hardcore pkers who have time to travel for hours searching players or who go in SF to fight TB.
everyone is either leveling, gathering in some town or base and crafting, and after that i guess they do TC or something because i never see them in the waste anymore. :/
I really miss the times when u couldn't walk the map without encountering someone and there were people fighting in large groups all over wasteland, and this idea seems to promote at the very least getting people out there instead of being on log timer limbo for hours to make 1 BA and a gun or something thats just not worth it.
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Why don't you just add miner NPC where you can buy/sell ores? In either case, these NPCs will have money or mats - a small amount respawned and mats/money balance filled up by players, so:
- ones could shorten their need for supplies
- while others can mine for some money.
- both will be working for each other via middleman.
Just throwing this in.
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Why don't you just add miner NPC where you can buy/sell ores? In either case, these NPCs will have money or mats - a small amount respawned and mats/money balance filled up by players, so:
- ones could shorten their need for supplies
- while others can mine for some money.
- both will be working for each other via middleman.
Just throwing this in.
Hmm.. something like this has been suggested. I'm totally sure of it.
I try find that.
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Yeah, suggested and forgotten. Good luck finding that, Runboy.
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Yeah, suggested and forgotten.
Only the best die young. I always hope all those awesome suggestions that are burried deep under all that other crap (add bikes with miniguns lol) are noted somewhere on devs' list, at least partially.
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Some thoughts and considerations:
http://fonline2238.blogspot.com/2011/08/gathering-waiting.html
to fire up this thread once again, as it contains some worthwile stuff.
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I'd be quite happy with either of those to be honest.
Would the first option mean you could ONLY find resources when finding encounters, or just that the chance would be much greater?
If the former, are there any thoughts regarding adding some more "non-combat" encounters i.e. a corpse, a strange looking tree, a little campfire, a broken truck etc - little flavour encounters that may contain resources, but not necessarily involve killing 20 rats etc, which would allow you to run in, explore a little, gather and escape? (avoiding staying in the encounter for too long and getting shot in the back by a Light Support Weapon)
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I'd be quite happy with either of those to be honest.
Would the first option mean you could ONLY find resources when finding encounters, or just that the chance would be much greater?
If the former, are there any thoughts regarding adding some more "non-combat" encounters i.e. a corpse, a strange looking tree, a little campfire, a broken truck etc - little flavour encounters that may contain resources, but not necessarily involve killing 20 rats etc, which would allow you to run in, explore a little, gather and escape? (avoiding staying in the encounter for too long and getting shot in the back by a Light Support Weapon)
Those would be independent rolls, so yes, that totally begs for non-combat encounters as well (in safer areas).
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Those would be independent rolls, so yes, that totally begs for non-combat encounters as well (in safer areas).
Treasure hunting would be nice yes, but it would require bigger encounter maps.
About this scavenging:
It's still a bit like work. Similar to junk and flower gathering. Hopefully it will be so that when you enter, you will always find at least some of the materials you were looking for. It's no use to put players in encounters with nothing there. Slights randomnes in material ammounts and type (small chance to find epics) will keep up the interest. In addition it's better to put lots of materials in the same encounter rather than little materials in many differend encounters + increase the map size and dimensions (containers and corners to find the treasures from). Bigger size and dimensions will also reduce the way players will spawn there out of nowhere and get an edge over you because of element of surprise. Or die because the enc was being camped.
For that, we could add items that reduce timeout - say food
If the food exists as items, its purpose breaks. Player buys it with alt and moves it to an alt that couldn't buy it for some reason.
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Hopefully it will be so that when you enter, you will always find at least some of the materials you were looking for
This should be handled by attaching the resource type to the worldmap zones. Bear in mind you would not be looking for this by entering a map from worldmap, but by encountering it.
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I see, but what if the player doesn't want to encounter it? Is he constantly pulled in those forced material encounters or is there a chance to avoid them?
In addition gotta keep in mind where player spends most of his time: is it on the worldmap circling and trying to encounter material location or inside the encounter struggling to get the materials. Gameplay-wise it would be best if majority of time was spent inside the encounter.