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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Lordus on November 16, 2010, 09:39:58 pm
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Bring back old colourizing:
The n.1 reason why colourizing was downgraded was that it will destory big alliances and it will allow existance of small gangs, that could i.e. control towns.
Many players, me too, told that this process is not reversible, that colourizing is not equal to alliances. But this is test server, we tested it and we were right with our opinion.
1) Downgrade of NC cause that you we are no longer "trading" names among ally gangs, so it is necessary to tag green ally player before fight, but this cause spectrum of problems:
a) every new char that is created have to do tag and been tagged by others, it is annoying
b) of course, we developed tactic to make common tent before fight and tag there every alli player green, but if any player arrives later, sometimes he died because of FF, because of coordination of 15 plus players is not piece of cake. In general, it is annoying
c) i dont know if this is only my problem, but often (1/2 of cases), if i tag player by colour, name has still same coulour until (log off and log in)
2) Because you cannot simply import and export enemy names into NC, teams do not use red colour to tag enemy player:
a) every non green player is considered as a threat, so even friends of one team is often killed, because it is impossible to handle this situation
b) we cannot green tag friends, because this colour is important for TC and PvP to recognize our combat alli players
3) Because we cannot tag friends, neutral gangs, even recognize one enemy gang from another, TC/PvP policy of major gangs are reduced to: you are member of alli, you have to help us, or you are enemy, we will shoot you on sight (because we just dont remember non alting regular players and cant recognize them from scouts/looters of enemy)
4) Because we cannot add special colourz to individuals, roleplayers, small gang, .... it also reduce the policy of gangs to hostile / not hostile
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Against. I like it how I meet unknown guys in the wasteland and give them a chance, instead of having them instantly recognized by a database I downloaded on my faction's website.
Namecolorizing's gone and I like it like that. Yeah. :P
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bring it back for points made by Lordus, it doesn't stop alliances in anyway, it just makes it more tedious.
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Against. I like it how I meet unknown guys in the wasteland and give them a chance, instead of having them instantly recognized by a database I downloaded on my faction's website.
Namecolorizing's gone and I like it like that. Yeah. :P
4) Because we cannot add special colourz to individuals, roleplayers, small gang, .... it also reduce the policy of gangs to hostile / not hostile..
this is accelerate during TC or PvP, where we just dont have time to chat and at moment, when we are guarding stuff from our dead players, we are have to kill everyone
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Against. I like it how I meet unknown guys in the wasteland and give them a chance, instead of having them instantly recognized by a database I downloaded on my faction's website.
Namecolorizing's gone and I like it like that. Yeah. :P
A gang member from big gang have for sure something special on him to recognize him, same to butcher or just peace civilian.
We want it back!
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Big gangs should be got something that they can see who is their side and who is enemy.
So this is good suggestion for big gangs.
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this is accelerate during TC or PvP, where we just dont have time to chat and at moment, when we are guarding stuff from our dead players, we are have to kill everyone
Then Town Control seems to be the problem, not namecolorizing. Anyway then I suggest a middle solution: Another color, like blue, as an alternative. This would be quite a good compromise.
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Then Town Control seems to be the problem, not namecolorizing. Anyway then I suggest a middle solution: Another color, like blue, as an alternative. This would be quite a good compromise.
Week later, TTLA tried to settle a deal with Rogues because of roleplay in Redding. We did not attacked Rogues, but there were Chosen soldiers, but we did not have chance to recognize them...
TC problem.. tell me, what is more simple, bring back old colourizing with possibility to make alliances, neutral pacts, respecting of roleplayres and players that help you, or cure the TC problems..
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Alas, there are other players in this game than TC-PvPers, people that don't care about TC and that don't want Namecolorizing to be back just because VSB couldn't recognize Chosen Soldiers or Rogues, etc.
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Alas, there are other players in this game than TC-PvPers, people that don't care about TC and that don't want Namecolorizing to be back just because VSB couldn't recognize Chosen Soldiers or Rogues, etc.
Yes, so this kind of players have possibility to choose if they want to use NC or not.
Constant number of PvP players are very big part of fonline, and they needs this. The possible worst thing of absence of NC is that somebody will create something similar to FOCD and it will be like now. Players violating rules because of FOCD and fast relog will dominate peoples who follow rules...
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Constant number of PvP players are very big part of fonline, and they needs this.
I don't know if you mean that FOnline needs PvP players - if then, I disagree, this game doesn't need pro-PvPers. If you mean that Namecolorizing is needed for PvP players, then I also disagree. In a more general way, I'm against implementing huge features like Namecolorizing.txt (not that it requires much work to implement it again, but its consequences are huge) just because they are useful when team Y takes town X.
The possible worst thing of absence of NC is that somebody will create something similar to FOCD and it will be like now.
Maybe, or maybe it's impossible. The only ones to know are devs, so I suggest we don't use this argument again :P
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It can be solved by PC faction members list. But there's a problem, if character just created (another alt) and not in a gang, it won't work is such way:
1) Instantly make all members of your faction green or blue or any other friendly color without needing to colorize yourself.
2) Develop PC factions further by creating possibility in terminal to add ally-factions. All members of these factions will be some other friendly color for you. It'll be better if green will be your own color that you tag in-game, blue - for your faction, and teal - your allies.
3) Add enemy faction in terminal from PC faction list, they will be purple or orange for you.
Problem #1: Enemies' characters aren't always in the same faction, but there's also:
Problem #2: Thier friends won't recognize them too.
Non-Problem: Your allies will be always teal color for you, just make sure that he is in faction, if not, then you have to tag him green yourself.
So all you need is just add every newly created character to your faction, and your allies must do the same, if it's impossible by some reason, then you'll have to tag him, or "friends of faction" in terminal will have some color too, so even if someone is in NPC faction because of some needs, he could be friend of faction and have special color, the same as friend of allied for you faction.
Edit: So, it won't affect strangers who DLing your NC, because they simply can't do it, but faction members will still use some kind of NC.
So these strangers will need to be your friends or in your faction, and well then they're not strangers.
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I don't know if you mean that FOnline needs PvP players - if then, I disagree, this game doesn't need pro-PvPers. If you mean that Namecolorizing is needed for PvP players, then I also disagree. In a more general way, I'm against implementing huge features like Namecolorizing.txt (not that it requires much work to implement it again, but its consequences are huge) just because they are useful when team Y takes town X.
Socializing is also part of every game. Until Fonline will offers mainly PvP, there will exist majority of communities that are here because of PvP.
What is consequence of downgrading nc this era? More teams in TC? Less PK? Or more annoying, confusing, frienfly fire?
This absolutely dont solve anything. And you will still have change to install or uninstall NC if you want.
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And you will still have change to install or uninstall NC if you want.
Please...
Socializing is also part of every game. Until Fonline will offers mainly PvP, there will exist majority of communities that are here because of PvP.
This is why we need Namecolorizing to be away from this game. I think the major source of our disagreement here is that in your opinion, we need Namecolorizing to socialize, and I think we need it to disappear to socialize. In your opinion, it brought more pking; that's not what I think.
What is consequence of downgrading nc this era? More teams in TC? Less PK?
Precisely. Don't know about you - member of some kind of anti-pk alliance - but when I meet an unknown guy in the desert, I'm not shooting him down. It is much more interesting to have to memorize people, to talk to them and to have to make an effort to try to see if he's an hostile being or not, than to just download the .txt from your team's website.
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Lordus.. is that hard to get that it don't come game again.
I know that they try to make something that replace that old system, but without harming other systems.
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It can be solved by PC faction members list.
Working with terminal is annoying. You cant copy past, tranfer text from alliances. Also sometimes is terminal bugged, you have to restart client...
If you can not add specific colour to some group of players, it is always reducing the policy of the team. Last eras, we had and used cca used 10 different colours for teams, so we were able to recognize different enemy from each other, allied teams, neutral teams, no team bluesuits, single PKs, annoying looters, helpers, ... .
This had a great influence on roleplay, because we had chance to recognize and respect players. Now, because of security, we just kill all of non green players. And this do every team.
If you are single player, you have to create contant with gangs and teams. You can do what you want, but teams will ignore this and killed you because they have not any other chance.
I dont understand why you think that gangs and communities are bad. Look at real world, look at new vegas, look at original fallouts.. it was the same: factions like raiders, brotherhood, enclave, cities and relationship.
Reducing NC into current form reduces possible relations and it eliminates even basic chances to create some kind of roleplays.. Facts? Look at current roleplays, look at TC holders...
AND it is not only my opinion, IT IS OPINION OF PLAYERS OF EVERY GANGS (i hope even rogues and cs agree with this).
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Everyone is not PVP in 2238.
There are also crafters and traders.
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(...) i dont know if this is only my problem, but often (1/2 of cases), if i tag player by colour, name has still same coulour until (log off and log in) (...)
Relog is not needed. If color isn't set instantly, client will set it next time when given char enter your FOV.
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And you can think Lordus that you and you scums PVP factions rule whole world of 2238?
I think you are wrong.. there are also good people that who crafting and selling stuff and maybe little bit PVE.
If this game not good enough for you or anyone else PVP faction.. there is always one choice.
Leave from FOnline 2238.
Ohm vulgarity in serious topic :)ยจ
PVP players are part of Fonline 2238.. if you they should create different relations with players, different than alliance and hostile, they need a possibility to do it.
Dont you realize that we just simply could not make relations among teams and players. One team member is friend with non team member player. But rest of team dont know about this relation. Because of this, he add his name into NC into collum: friends and rest of team know, that he is safe.
Without this, he will be shooted early or later, just becase one human cannot repetably told to every allies and mates.. Dont kill Izual, he is friend of mine.
Do you understand this?
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Do you understand this?
I think i understand this finally.
Thanks.
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Dont you realize that we just simply could not make relations among teams and players. One team member is friend with non team member player. But rest of team dont know about this relation. Because of this, he add his name into NC into collum: friends and rest of team know, that he is safe.
But that is precisely what I do not like with NC. Computer-based relationship instead of individual-to-individual relationship.
And runboy, try not to be vulgar, thanks.
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I don't understand mad killing of players without reason.
I shoot people if they start to shoot me or try to take my loot.
And why do you think that NC means PKilling? This is not the same.
In simply logic, PK teams will still shoot every bluesuit just because fun, and so called anti PK will have better option to recognize pure PK from those who only defend themselfs from those who are anti pk.
In current state, if you Tag someone red, or if you tell that that player is enemy, everyone who have enough brain capacity, will remember him as a threat, does not matter it was mistake, or his nick is similar to other.. And whole era he will be enemy for whole team, does not matter, NC is downgraded.
For christ, come to our mumble during TC session and you will listen dozen times:
Who is this, who is that? Dont kill nick xxxx! What did you say? Arghhh, you killed xxx, he is friend. And who is dritt? (Dritt, because we are afraid to attack him, he runs over our position, check our position and report info on enemy mumble, then enemy jumped, kill us, Dritt is looting us and we listen): I told you Dritt is Rogue, why you dont kill him?
And i can continue.. it is the same all time. Because of this, we just shout: Leave or die, and after few seconds, we kill all non green players. Tell me, how this helps to Fonline community?
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PK's... need to be all cleaned from game.
Scums.. kill players for fun..
Stop trolling. Nuff said.
And Lordus is right about Mumble, although I dont do mumble I do IRC now and since I lead small gang we talk in this manner quite alot, its simply too frusturating, please bring NC back, it is a necessity almost, at least for big gang pvp.
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And why do you think that NC means PKilling? This is not the same.
In simply logic, PK teams will still shoot every bluesuit just because fun, and so called anti PK will have better option to recognize pure PK from those who only defend themselfs from those who are anti pk.
In current state, if you Tag someone red, or if you tell that that player is enemy, everyone who have enough brain capacity, will remember him as a threat, does not matter it was mistake, or his nick is similar to other.. And whole era he will be enemy for whole team, does not matter, NC is downgraded.
For christ, come to our mumble during TC session and you will listen dozen times:
Who is this, who is that? Dont kill nick xxxx! What did you say? Arghhh, you killed xxx, he is friend. And who is dritt? (Dritt, because we are afraid to attack him, he runs over our position, check our position and report info on enemy mumble, then enemy jumped, kill us, Dritt is looting us and we listen): I told you Dritt is Rogue, why you dont kill him?
And i can continue.. it is the same all time. Because of this, we just shout: Leave or die, and after few seconds, we kill all non green players. Tell me, how this helps to Fonline community?
This is very true.
Every medium to large size group of non-griefers have these problems. PKs who just slaughter everyone in sight don't have these problems.
If devs want more roleplaying and less mindless PKing, they should throw non-griefers a bone or something to even out the odds, so the big PvP groups concentrate on fighting each other and not griefing roleplayers or loners. I don't blame any "anti-PKs" for starting shooting anyone suspicious, I would do so too, if I still found playing 2238 worth my time (lets hope posts like this will help improve it).
Namecolorizing should be percieved as nothing more then convenient abstraction of memorizing mugshot posters.
If you want more realism, remove server side colorizing, bring back client file-based colorizing and show only as much names colorized from the list as characters intelligence or something...
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Why NC had been removed anyway? To stop alliances and swarm rushes? Oh please. To make life of "antiPK" harder? Yeah, like someone cares about their list of "outlawz", which were in fact list of every character they saw.
You have my spear here, Lordus.
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Oh, good old times where I would have half the server tagged red or green by downloading NA's namecolorizing! Oh devs, why have you stopped this?
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I understand both sides of this coin. As a gang leader I would like the name colorizing back in so that I can tag the confirmed pkr's, because I don't get a chance every time I'm blown away by them, and that doesn't mean my team members have them marked. And now a days people are even going so far as to say, 'Peace' *click, burst* "Lulz"... Now should there be a blanket list, that's a touchy subject and I honestly don't know. I would just like to be able to add names on my faction computer and know that when my friends are out playing they're not gonna get taken by the same punk who took me. Izual still has fine points though, it wasn't right in the old way either. I can't suggest a better way though.
/two cents.
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Would it be possible in the game to create some kind of diary to automaticaly red tag someone ? For example if you shoot at someone you never shot at in the past you are automaticaly red tagged for this person...
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For, we need it, if the actual session is totally mad it's all due to this lack !
Actually : you are good or evil or neutral.
With old name Colorising : you can be evil but "frequentable", you can be good but "crazy", etc.
The point is that we need nuances.
EDIT : to people who are against, when it was working, you never were forced to use a namecolorising, let bring it back, people who want use it will use it, other not, and everyone will be happy :).
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Old NC:
- too much additional time wasted to add new faction nicknames to it, enemies, other players, additional time wasted for making everyone download and use current list
- "I have never seen that dude but somehow magically, I know from which team he is! C'mon, I've just downloaded our latest NC!" <- it's stupid imo
- no way to make one list which always make all gang members coloured, without need to update it
- easy to make large alliances, just update one list and make everyone download it
New NC:
- you probably make one list and have all gang members coloured, without worrying about updating it
- you know who is who if you encountered the player before and remember his name, what he was doing etc.
- more difficult to make large alliances, as you need one base to add all chars or remember all nicknames of allied members (and hope that they remember you also)
"Namecolorizing" thing is just against fallout reality imo.
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To me, the fight against Namecolorizing is above all a fight for realism and equality in this game.
With Namecolorizing, bigger factions are given an advantage towards the smaller ones. Each member of a faction adds his own encountered players to the list. This means if everyone adds two characters to Namecolorizing per day, a faction with 50 members will have +100 names in his Namecolorizing per day and a faction with 10 players, +20 names. This is how some big factions looked like the CIA last wipe, and some others like nothing. It is as unfair and unfalloutish as having a daily income because you controlled a city once and put all the caps in your bank.
We are playing a multiplayer Fallout game, guys, not World Domination Corporation. This game should not be about getting as many caps as possible and as many colored guys as possible. In this topic I heard both "It prevents us from sparing lives in TC because now we have to shoot everybody" and "The lack of Namecolorizing is not at all a problem for bigger factions". Well, you know what. I think it's better like that. You "need" to shoot everyone during Town Control operations? You're trying to control a town using guns and shiny armors, lads, so don't start worrying about your poor collateral victims. The bigger your alliance will be, the more you will try to seize control of something - the more you will kill innocent people. This is not a problem. This doesn't need to be fixed. The argument about "innocent victims" - which is not a new one - is an invalid argument. There is always a possibility to chose not to kill; if you chose to kill, then it is because your goal - most of the times, TC - is more important than killing few innocent wanderers. And obviously, it is. You're a gang trying to seize control of a town thanks to pure strength, so don't whine about needed violence to achieve this goal. If Town Control is such a slaughter, then I suggest you stop doing it - reading the posts above mine, it looks like you won't need Namecolorizing anymore.
Now that was about the irrelevance of some of the arguments I heard; I will now try to explain what bothers me the most with Namecolorizing system. One of these things is, as stated in the first paragraph, that not all factions are equal with it. It's another thing that gives bigger gangs advantages towards smaller gangs, that have no Intelligence Department. The second thing, and I don't think it is an arguable point, is that Namecolorizing is shareable. You start in the game, here's a list of who's who, who is good and evil. You add a guy in your Namecolorizing, hey, the whole team will now shoot him or not shoot him.
I believe in players interactions. I want to have tagged only the people I know. This is why the current system is fine, by the way - maybe more colors would be good, I don't see a problem with adding more: you can only tag people that you met. And in this game, people you met are almost all the time people that you talked with or fought with. Lordus, you said that it's annoying to have to repeat to your team-mates "Don't shoot X, don't shoot Y, don't shoot Z". Well, this is what happens in real fights, you know. I don't want to have someone tagged green that I never met. Maybe you do. I don't want to have friends I never heard of, nor enemies I never heard of. Namecolorizing is a team-to-team vision, current system is based on individual relationships. And I think it fits Fallout better, as well as enhancing game experience. What is the most interesting - to download a huge home-made list of who to shoot and who not to shoot, or to meet people, to talk with them, to interact with them, and only then to tag them?
Yes, I'm only talking about tagging red and green. "That's not true! Namecolorizing.txt provides a lot of different colors". Wrong. Even if you use a lot of colors (one for each team, for example), orange, blue, grey, white, purple, all these colors can be put in two categories: "To shoot" and "Not to shoot". Red and green. This is a nonsense to talk about mid-evil people or mid-good people in this game; if you want to have cautious attitude with someone, leave him untagged or make a third color for "To be cautious with" characters.
Another of the used arguments is something like this: "Namecolorizing allows us to recognize teams". Yes, sure it does, I can't deny it. There's only one problem: this list of faction members is available to you even if you never heard of the faction. Also, it is a subjective list, made by your friends. I am in favor of "teams recognition", like with some kind of uniform for each faction or with Jack_FR's logos-in-nicks idea. It is different from Namecolorizing for two reasons: first, it is fair because everyone has the same information. Second, it is an objective information. No red, no green: Player X is member of team Y. I don't see any problem with this kind of information if there is no way to personalize it - one color/flag/uniform chosen randomly for each faction, I think this is fair. Everyone sees faction Y with blue and yellow stripes, everyone sees faction Z with black and white flag, that was given to them by the server. But as far as I know, developers don't want this kind of instant-recognition. By then, I prefer current system - you make your own, un-shareable records. A personal and subjective list of the people you met - the very same character diary that can be found in any good role-playing game.
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We are playing a multiplayer Fallout game, guys, not World Domination Corporation. This game should not be about getting as many caps as possible and as many colored guys as possible.
I know that you are played Fallout games much Izual.. and you should know that Fallout is nothing more than killing persons!
You maybe do it for good, but still.. you kill people and become great vault dweller.
And i remember i said sometime something about caps and power.
If you got caps you got everything
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You know Izual we talk about it yesterday on Mumble, from our point of view, different colors, even if it's a "dark" color doesnt mean we will shoot.
For example, before wipe, we used orange color for people "under investigation", this means we saw these people do bad things but they aren't considerated as outlaw, we just keep an eye on their actions to see how they really play, then we change their colors when we are sure.
Light pink color was used for people who were outlaw but don't want to be anymore outlaw, they are on reconciliation status to us... So we keep our atention on them, and if after a short time they proved their good actions, we exclude them from the list.
These examplesworks with Lawyers cases, but i'm sure that many other teams used it in that way.
There are :
- bad guys to shoot on sight
- Bad guys to observe and judge
- Bad guys "trusted" (for example some usual TC ooponents but with who we can talk in peace when it's not TC)
- Random Bad Guy (shooted only if it's a threat)
- Neutral Guys
- Good Guys
So color on names doesn't means "automatic shoot". it depends on context.
"Indexing" wasteland is part of our roleplay, and this part doesn't really exist right now, because it's only red-white-green. We used to like doing massive taging and provide full list of one team or list of criminals ike our old LCR(Lawyer Criminal Record).
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A personal and subjective list of the people you met - the very same character diary that can be found in any good role-playing game.
Good role-playing games also have combat that doesn't rely so much on first strike, or you can atleast see when random player is going to attack you before you got a bullet in your skull.
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I know that you are played Fallout games much Izual.. and you should know that Fallout is nothing more than killing persons!
You maybe do it for good, but still.. you kill people and become great vault dweller.
And i remember i said sometime something about caps and power.
If you got caps you got everything
We're talking FOnline here, not Fallout single player.
Fallout 1 and 2 can be played without killing anyone.
As member of a small faction I have to agree to what Izual says as it makes sense.
However there should be a way to identify fellow faction members as such.
Perhaps a required peak in the faction terminal would do.
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Namecolorising should be done by a game engine, not by hands. Here is what i mean:
All members of your faction should be green. All pk\blockers in town should be made red by a system.
You could introduce gang relations like Allience\war - people in same ally are green\blue, people at war are red.
Maybe even allow gangs at mutual war shoot each other no matter where.
Neutrals are always gray and lone PK's are always gray.
This is realistic as normally different factions do smth to look different (although game engine does not allow it yet) so you can clearly distinquish ally from an enemy.
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Old NC:
- "I have never seen that dude but somehow magically, I know from which team he is! C'mon, I've just downloaded our latest NC!" <- it's stupid imo
(Izual saying something similar)
Let me quite myself as argument against that:
Namecolorizing should be percieved as nothing more then convenient abstraction of memorizing mugshot posters.
If you want more realism, remove server side colorizing, bring back client file-based colorizing and show only as much names colorized from the list as characters intelligence or something...
Mugshot posters fit Fallout reality 200% IMHO, there currently is nothing like it in game. Maybe you don't need it for your gameplay style, but lot of other people want it.
Anuri: Colorizing by game system is just as "great" as karma systems...
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"Great" or not but you can always distinquish a raider from an NCR ranger - same here really.
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Actually : you are good or evil or neutral.
You are in alliance (green), or hostile (no colour) or turbo hostile (red), because there is not any way how to tag every hostile player red, because in the middle of the battle, players have to shoot, not tag enemy.
Old NC:
- "I have never seen that dude but somehow magically, I know from which team he is! C'mon, I've just downloaded our latest NC!" <- it's stupid imo
For christ, imagine in real world, that you attacked police. Every police member in the country will get information about attacker. It is nonsense what are you telling. I have to repeat, for ANTI PK gangs it reduces the possibility of creating relations among gangs and players, because we could not asign them adequade colour and nocolour is reserved for both, hostile and neutrals.
To me, the fight against Namecolorizing is above all a fight for realism and equality in this game.
And what is real at fact that you can survive 2 bursts from minigun? Game is always the mix of realism, abstraction, gameplay to make balance game.
With Namecolorizing, bigger factions are given an advantage towards the smaller ones. Each member of a faction adds his own encountered players to the list. This means if everyone adds two characters to Namecolorizing per day, a faction with 50 members will have +100 names in his Namecolorizing per day and a faction with 10 players, +20 names. This is how some big factions looked like the CIA last wipe, and some others like nothing. It is as unfair and unfalloutish as having a daily income because you controlled a city once and put all the caps in your bank.
1) Nonsense, there is not faction with 50 members.
2) Adding new names is not so often as you write here.
3) PK gangs does not have intention to add neutral players into list, they have red (TTLA, VSB, Hawks, CS/Rogues) and green.
In this topic I heard both "It prevents us from sparing lives in TC because now we have to shoot everybody" and "The lack of Namecolorizing is not at all a problem for bigger factions". Well, you know what. I think it's better like that.
It is not problem for PK gangs. They have red players and green.
One story about how Hawks became alliance of VSB:
Their original name was egoslayers. They were not on our mumble, even they were czech/slovak too. First regular contant with them was when they were looting stuff from our dead bodies after TC PvP. We tagged them red and told him on their forum that they are hostile to us. After some discussion and argumenting, we give them "orange colour", that means, Not kill them on sight, but if they will loot, PKilling, attacking us, spying us, there is not any restriction to kill them. After some time, they organized and equiped, so they were capturing cities. They tried to capture our city, so we went there prepared to fight, but because they were not pure hostile to us, we settle a deal, that we will help them to capture their own city. After this cooperation and few other fights, we gave them friend status and after we moved to our mumble, we allied with them. Nice story, isnt it? But true.
Current NC does not allow us to do it same. They will still be neutral and they will still be shooted and possibility of make a relationn with them is ZERO. PK gangs, like Rogues and CS do not need this feauture, because they will kill them at first possibility. We need this. Thank you Izual, that you understand this, even you did not play in gang for whole existence of 2238.
Lordus, you said that it's annoying to have to repeat to your team-mates "Don't shoot X, don't shoot Y, don't shoot Z". Well, this is what happens in real fights, you know.
In real fights (expect urban terrism), soldiers have UNIFORMS.
Even if you use a lot of colors (one for each team, for example), orange, blue, grey, white, purple, all these colors can be put in two categories: "To shoot" and "Not to shoot".
Enemy = Red and possibility to recognize them because of different shades. It gave us to settle a temporary alliances with even hostile teams. No we could not do that.
Caution = looters, spies, suicide bombers, Vedaras, ... We dont have a duty to kill them on sight, but only if they want to repat their hostile behaviour. No we shoot them on sight.
Neutral = new small faction that we met in wasteland. We dont know them, if they are PK or not PK, but we talked with them and there is possibility that we can make another agreement with them. Every our player is safe to talk with them and he is not to be aware of attack from their side
Friendly team/player = team/player that is not in our alliance, but helps us, loot our stuff and then bring back to us, we often trade with them.
Alliance = no need to explain this.
Current system reduce all possible relations into: Alliance (green), and hostile (no coulour). Red is not used, because we have no possibility to tag red enemy (even Rogues or CS only) player with this colour.
Proof? what gangs were trying to TC this era? CS, Rogues (BH hunters = alts of Rogues), TTTLA, VSB, Hawks.. There were 2 other teams, but they were killed, because we just simply dont know, who are they.
Another of the used arguments is something like this: "Namecolorizing allows us to recognize teams". Yes, sure it does, I can't deny it. There's only one problem: this list of faction members is available to you even if you never heard of the faction. Also, it is a subjective list, made by your friends.
Warsavian pakt forces invade Czechoslovakia in 1968. There were Soviet soldires from ural, and officers told them, that they have to strike because of war here. No war was in Czechoslovakia, only kind of relasing pressure from state, more liberty in medias... But those Soldires striked, they had order. Nothing unusual in real world.
In opposite, we have our forum, we are often in guarded cities and everyone, who thinks that is on our black list by mistake, has chance to notice us.
Also, gangs are not changing information about neutral players among them, mostly about temates and pure enemies. So even neutral player could create relationship. And non green players means that we dont have any reason why to attack him and we can talk with him...
yesterday i have been thinking about namecolorising and other issues with running big organisation
and i vote no for NC, ofcourse when developers remove one feature - lossing control by killing tc controler
Yes, because you are PK gang and you need to recognize only your mates and thats all. current NC is satisfiyng for you. But not for ANTI PK gangs. We need more possibilities than shoot on sight/teamate
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yesterday i have been thinking about namecolorising and other issues with running big organisation
and i vote no for NC, ofcourse when developers remove one feature - lossing control by killing tc controler
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For christ, imagine in real world, that you attacked police. Every police member in the country will get information about attacker. It is nonsense what are you telling. I have to repeat, for ANTI PK gangs it reduces the possibility of creating relations among gangs and players, because we could not asign them adequade colour and nocolour is reserved for both, hostile and neutrals.
For christ, this is not real world and there is no global police in fallout (even if you want to be part of one).
Also, this is not quake where you have different teams coloured up nicely.
I don't know what common have colours with relations, I have positive relations with some players of other factions (yes, your allies too) and I don't need any colours for that, only nicknames which I know from game, forum, irc etc.
Although this I liked a lot:
Proof? what gangs were trying to TC this era? CS, Rogues (BH hunters = alts of Rogues), TTTLA, VSB, Hawks.. There were 2 other teams, but they were killed, because we just simply dont know, who are they.
BHH are alts of Rogues, right.. so Hawks are alts of VSB? :) Well nevermind that bullshit propaganda, you just admit that you killed some teams with people you completely don't know, just because... they tried town control? :)
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For christ, this is not real world and there is no global police in fallout (even if you want to be part of one).
I have to second this.
As I wrote in this topic, I'm against implementing NC again because some APK factions absolutely need these shiny colors in order to stop shooting at random people. I respect the APK stuff, but now this is getting too far.
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For christ, this is not real world and there is no global police in fallout (even if you want to be part of one).
Also, this is not quake where you have different teams coloured up nicely.
It is not real world and it is not game? What are you talking about. I wrote you dozens of reasons why we need NC back to improve gameplay of non PK gang.
I don't know what common have colours with relations, I have positive relations with some players of other factions (yes, your allies too) and I don't need any colours for that, only nicknames which I know from game, forum, irc etc.
Read again my previous post. How you can manage relationship among 15 player with one individual, if every one blusuit is possible enemy scout (and in fact, majority is).
BHH are alts of Rogues, right.. so Hawks are alts of VSB? :) Well nevermind that bullshit propaganda, you just admit that you killed some teams with people you completely don't know, just because... they tried town control? :)
Back to topic. It is not about relation among you and BHH.
So Izual, do you agree that without NC creating relation among ANTI PK gangs (Rogues and CS dont need it), is impossible because of facts i wrote? Or you still think that gangs with 15 plus players could make stable relations with each single player without this feauture?
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If there is a shootout every sane blueshirt would run away from town, so it's ok if gangs fighting for TC assume neutrals as enemies.I would for sure, since they are probably here to loot and spy.
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heh its funny to read that lordus, you are just pk like most of your team
last, true antipk are old orphans. so you really need this nc
udpate: sorry izual i wont, this disscusion is not about pk and antipk - btw still dont get pk thing, its fucking wasteland
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So Izual, do you agree that without NC creating relation among ANTI PK gangs (Rogues and CS dont need it), is impossible because of facts i wrote?
No, I disagree. I don't think you absolutely need NC to create relations, my own opinion is that Namecolorizing is precisely the opposite of creating relationships - same as uniforms prevent oneself from being asked questions about his background.
Or you still think that gangs with 15 plus players could make stable relations with each single player without this feature?
I think it is not a problem to make stable relations with lone players, regardless of the numbers of players you have in your team. I also think that, for an APK gang, being involved in TC is very difficult - if not impossible.
But you said yourself that the only ones to need Namecolorizing are 15+ members APK gangs. I can only agree, and be against the implementation of such a powerful tool just because you need it to stop killing innocent people during TC. My two cents.
Edit: MSH, use valuable arguments please. This is (was) a serious discussion.
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Edit: MSH, use valuable arguments please. This is (was) a serious discussion.
Yeah maybe it was supposed to, but right now every reply of Lordus is
- read my post again, maybe it will finally convince you
or
- you rogues you don't need NC you bad blah blah
Really boring so I stop here, I've already said what I had to say on the topic, I'm sure devs are going to read nice stories about uniforms and 1968 intervention, thanks.
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The real problem, Izual, is that me and you play different Fonline. For you it is idea of single player with few friends he made in wasteland or during chat in NCR bazaar. Your single player is challenging wasteland with its own dangers, exploring the unknown world. Yes, i played this before too in first era, where there was no voice comm and everyhing was new.
But now, i am playing as a member of gang with more than 15 players, we choose the hardest way, not to PK for stuff, like Rogues and CS do from first day after wipe (and because of this, they dont need to craft, they just parasite on basic crafters work) and then they rush their TC expansion. If we want to suceed, we need to create relationship with similar, smaller gangs (Hawks, TTTLA,...), we need to show to bluesuits, if someone like this still exist in fonline, that even we are gang, we play different role as a gang.
But absence of NC is de facto eliminating this team gameplay for us.
Another example. I create relation with some player, noob, give him some basic stuff for start (i already did it with my second alt, that was broadcasting from NCR, until Jovanka B decided, that this dual log is threat for balanced gameplay of Fonline (how funny if you compare it to current FOCD, fast relog during combat abusing) and he jailed me and de facto ruined RP of that kind). Back to topic, i created relation with many players, talked with them, they offers me better prices for resources, even they player few hexes away offered him double price. It was okay, he was neutral, no colour, and few players upgraded to friend colours in our NC.
But now? I described why we use only Green one and rest (no colour, red colour) are deserved for hostile players becase there is not NC. It is not my problem, it is problem of all. No coulour means hostile, if you dont want to be killed.
You say: NC causes compartmentalization into GOOD (not shoot) and EVIL (shoot on sight)
I say: NC allow us to recognize our enemy and friends and gives a SPACE to create relation with others than previous two groups and possibility to give them kind of status that could be underscored by other colours
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I see loootss of post about that suggestion..
Old colorzing should back or reworked by that way :
- You see faction member in random color automatically (Faction member color should be changed in confing or NC)
- You can add friend to your colorzing ONLY by tagged them green ( and his nick should be green on all your alts.)
- Same ass friend you can add enemy by tagged them red.
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I see loootss of post about that suggestion..
Old colorzing should back or reworked by that way :
- You see faction member in random color automatically (Faction member color should be changed in confing or NC)
- You can add friend to your colorzing ONLY by tagged them green ( and his nick should be green on all your alts.)
- Same ass friend you can add enemy by tagged them red.
And if someone has tagged player red and other teammeber green (coindidence, or just he was PK one player, another knows him)... it does not solve the problem that whole gang makes a policy among other gangs and rest players.
All you everyone tried to invent here, by adding new regulation and limitation, will not solve the problem that Maszrum will first day after wipe kill players in tanker with his new alt and i will not be possible to tag player for whole gang by friend colour.
Did you ever though about situation, that player marked by some friend colour, even they did not meet them, will have special reason to in game talk.
"Hey dude, your name is in gang friend colour, but i dont know you, who are you?"
"I am Jovanka B, no gang, are you from VSB?"
"Yes, do you know someone from our gang?"
"Yes, Lordus, he is a good boy, he helped me witch catching dual loggers, while i was Game Master."
"Realy, who did you caught, JovankaB?"
"Lordus's alts"
Do you see that possibilities? :))))
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redirected by Izual , lol
wonder, why Izual just did not merge threads
And btw, Iz, we had a poll in the tread!
2 Killgore from here http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15219.msg124449#msg124449
what about any good reasons to bring it back? Or you gonna troll here all the way?
You started trolling, not me
And this is quite good reason:
Yes 40 (83.3%)
No 8 (16.7%)
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i vote yes, for player tagging system to be more convenient no matter in which way it will be made, cause now it sucks as your tagged people on one account, are neutral on another.
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Actually, it seems to me that you are the one pvp-only-oriented, as you need colors to recognise people by gang. For me, it's more logical to remember some names of those "bloody bastards" than just downloading *.txt. But yeah, having all people colored (red-bastard gang, green-carebear gang, yellow-dunno) does need less thinking and lets you take a decision quickly, instead of thinking "Who the fuck was the guy XYZ and why his name is looking familiar". If you don't have any problems with your memory, you should be able to remember who's who if you had any interaction with that player before or if you have anyone that can tell you something about him. And if all that it takes for you to decide who's bad and who's not is some funny list coloring automatically people, then again, where is your non-PvP activity? Gone?
That is the point you don't understand.
I will try to explain it to you again:
1- In post-apo stories, there are gangs.
2- These gangs can be recognized at distance without having any discussions with them BECAUSE OF THEIR WEARS/HAIRSTYLES
3- In fonline, we haven't got the ability to put specific wears for specific gangs BUT thankfully we have colors.
Clear now?
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3- In fonline, we haven't got the ability to put specific wears for specific gangs
Yet! 3D will bring more character customization.
And this is quite good reason:
<poll stuff>
Most people whined when rocket crafting was nerfed, yet now it happens to be a good thing. Quality of an idea can't be seen with some forum poll results. I can read, understand and argue with opposite side's arguments, but the ones about popularity are just meaningless.
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Yet! 3D will bring more character customization.
Most people whined when rocket crafting was nerfed, yet now it happens to be a good thing. Quality of an idea can't be seen with some forum poll results. I can read, understand and argue with opposite side's arguments, but the ones about popularity are just meaningless.
I doubt there will be enough 3d details any soon to determine who is which gang.
However about reasons.
As far as i can see the only reason against - is "boo! metagaming!"
But everybody metaplays fonline with a little exception. Personally me don't have crafting alts or taxi alts ...
But still i have more then 10 chars. i like diversity.
Other then this, not having NC is somebody's evil will. Not sure whose.
"Faction mod" without ability to identify factions... Yep, strange thing...
"Poll stuff" ignored because it indicates most of people desire which quite opposite to will of some developer (s)?
Nice move to lock the thread!
However any reasonable person admits that it's up to him - to play or not to play.
Now for me "it's not to play" . And yes, I know obvious thing - developers are free to do whatever they want to their game.
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As far as i can see the only reason against - is "boo! metagaming!"
Countless reasons against Namecolorizing were given - a lot of reasons for its return were also given, indeed.
If you want to see more arguments against the implementation of a tool that makes everyone the slave of a .txt file, and increases the gap between huge factions and loners/small gangs, I suggest you read my post in 3rd page, this one:
To me, the fight against Namecolorizing is above all a fight for realism and equality in this game.
With Namecolorizing, bigger factions are given an advantage towards the smaller ones. Each member of a faction adds his own encountered players to the list. This means if everyone adds two characters to Namecolorizing per day, a faction with 50 members will have +100 names in his Namecolorizing per day and a faction with 10 players, +20 names. This is how some big factions looked like the CIA last wipe, and some others like nothing. It is as unfair and unfalloutish as having a daily income because you controlled a city once and put all the caps in your bank.
We are playing a multiplayer Fallout game, guys, not World Domination Corporation. This game should not be about getting as many caps as possible and as many colored guys as possible. In this topic I heard both "It prevents us from sparing lives in TC because now we have to shoot everybody" and "The lack of Namecolorizing is not at all a problem for bigger factions". Well, you know what. I think it's better like that. You "need" to shoot everyone during Town Control operations? You're trying to control a town using guns and shiny armors, lads, so don't start worrying about your poor collateral victims. The bigger your alliance will be, the more you will try to seize control of something - the more you will kill innocent people. This is not a problem. This doesn't need to be fixed. The argument about "innocent victims" - which is not a new one - is an invalid argument. There is always a possibility to chose not to kill; if you chose to kill, then it is because your goal - most of the times, TC - is more important than killing few innocent wanderers. And obviously, it is. You're a gang trying to seize control of a town thanks to pure strength, so don't whine about needed violence to achieve this goal. If Town Control is such a slaughter, then I suggest you stop doing it - reading the posts above mine, it looks like you won't need Namecolorizing anymore.
Now that was about the irrelevance of some of the arguments I heard; I will now try to explain what bothers me the most with Namecolorizing system. One of these things is, as stated in the first paragraph, that not all factions are equal with it. It's another thing that gives bigger gangs advantages towards smaller gangs, that have no Intelligence Department. The second thing, and I don't think it is an arguable point, is that Namecolorizing is shareable. You start in the game, here's a list of who's who, who is good and evil. You add a guy in your Namecolorizing, hey, the whole team will now shoot him or not shoot him.
I believe in players interactions. I want to have tagged only the people I know. This is why the current system is fine, by the way - maybe more colors would be good, I don't see a problem with adding more: you can only tag people that you met. And in this game, people you met are almost all the time people that you talked with or fought with. Lordus, you said that it's annoying to have to repeat to your team-mates "Don't shoot X, don't shoot Y, don't shoot Z". Well, this is what happens in real fights, you know. I don't want to have someone tagged green that I never met. Maybe you do. I don't want to have friends I never heard of, nor enemies I never heard of. Namecolorizing is a team-to-team vision, current system is based on individual relationships. And I think it fits Fallout better, as well as enhancing game experience. What is the most interesting - to download a huge home-made list of who to shoot and who not to shoot, or to meet people, to talk with them, to interact with them, and only then to tag them?
Yes, I'm only talking about tagging red and green. "That's not true! Namecolorizing.txt provides a lot of different colors". Wrong. Even if you use a lot of colors (one for each team, for example), orange, blue, grey, white, purple, all these colors can be put in two categories: "To shoot" and "Not to shoot". Red and green. This is a nonsense to talk about mid-evil people or mid-good people in this game; if you want to have cautious attitude with someone, leave him untagged or make a third color for "To be cautious with" characters.
Another of the used arguments is something like this: "Namecolorizing allows us to recognize teams". Yes, sure it does, I can't deny it. There's only one problem: this list of faction members is available to you even if you never heard of the faction. Also, it is a subjective list, made by your friends. I am in favor of "teams recognition", like with some kind of uniform for each faction or with Jack_FR's logos-in-nicks idea. It is different from Namecolorizing for two reasons: first, it is fair because everyone has the same information. Second, it is an objective information. No red, no green: Player X is member of team Y. I don't see any problem with this kind of information if there is no way to personalize it - one color/flag/uniform chosen randomly for each faction, I think this is fair. Everyone sees faction Y with blue and yellow stripes, everyone sees faction Z with black and white flag, that was given to them by the server. But as far as I know, developers don't want this kind of instant-recognition. By then, I prefer current system - you make your own, un-shareable records. A personal and subjective list of the people you met - the very same character diary that can be found in any good role-playing game.
Namecolorizing.txt is indeed a difficult matter and its existence is an uneasy question. :(
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So people, you which dont want old colorizing back, tell me. Why not ?
Before we had good working system of recognization. You could use it, or also you didnt have to use it, choice was on you. But, it was deleted, because one or two people said "Its bad because reason 1,2,3". Noone cares that it was uselfull feature.
What we have now ? Bad working system of tagging, which sometimes not working when you try to tag someone. Everyone know that current system dont work well, even those which are against old colorizing. But these people who are against, didnt bring ANY better solution. So some people was for simplest solution, as bring OLD colorizing system back. But noooo, people which was against it before are against also now, and still dont bring any better solution. So in count we have: Shitty system of colorizing and taging people and if someone(90% which are interested) want it back, nothing happen.
Most people whined when rocket crafting was nerfed, yet now it happens to be a good thing. Quality of an idea can't be seen with some forum poll results. I can read, understand and argue with opposite side's arguments, but the ones about popularity are just meaningless.
Its not a same. Before rockets were nerfed, noone know what feedback will be. Of course there was feedback, as "omg what youve done ?" but after some time, noone care, its not problem to craft rockets.
But we HAD and use colorizing for one whole season. Then it was deleted, something changed. Feeback was big, noone understand why it was deleted because it was realy uselfull thing. After some time this feedback is still here(what a surprise), noone understand why it is disabled because its so uselfull thing. Its not a same
BTW, when colorizing will be in game, NOONE force you to use it. Best solution will be if you will keep current system of taging(red/green) and bring old colorizing back. Then NOONE will force you to be "slave of .txt" and youll be happy because you will be able to tag others in game without any out game activities.
BTW number 2, why you, people which dont want colorizing, force us to be without it ? You said something about recognization. Someone who is PK and killing people just for fun STILL will be PK which killing people just for fun. People which are not killing everyone on sight, will not killing everyone on sight with or without colorizing. Its just HELPFUL thing which is disabled.
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1- In post-apo stories, there are gangs.
O really? Tell us more about it. When you've found your first gang?
2- These gangs can be recognized at distance without having any discussions with them BECAUSE OF THEIR WEARS/HAIRSTYLES
3- In fonline, we haven't got the ability to put specific wears for specific gangs BUT thankfully we have colors.
Clear now?
Your logic is failed, mister, because with Namecolorizing you can distinguish people who don't have to wear something different/have different hairstyle. Same like you would threw a red jacket at someone from *.txt list and somehow, that red jacket would be magically placed on him/her. You don't decide what clothes/hairstyle someone has put on - he decides. So, you just download a list and people "start wearing" some special clothes? :)
Again, interact more with players rather than just giving them a tag or a colour. Then, problems "who the fuck is that guy" or "dude why did I shoot you" or "why I called you an idiot, you are on wrong list" will be gone. At least if you can recognise nicknames and don't have to see any pictures/colors attached to them.
While playing FOnline, namecolorizing was useful for me only when in some pvp fight (pure example: hinkley), when you have to take decisions "friendly or foe" quickly or you'll just die. In every other situation than that (trading / chatting / event / meeting someone new somewhere / guarding a town) all that counts is his nickname, not a colour. And it doesn't matter if the guy was "very important dude in Redding" or some random dude, if I know him, then I know what I can expect. If I don't know him, then why the hell would I know who is he and what is he doing? (yes it seems so obvious but not for all followers of the namecolorizing) You want namecolorizing list to make thinking part for you.
Some people seem to be tied to silly lists all the time. Namecolorizing lists, PK lists, antiPK lists, outlaws lists, carebears lists, suspects lists, a god-damned-rat-on-a-stake lists... What the fuck? Start playing game in game, not in notepad.
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Namecolorizing.txt is indeed a difficult matter and its existence is an uneasy question.
and increases the gap between huge factions and loners/small gangs
Now it is a gap between people registered at 1 base and the rest fonline 2238 world.
Honestly since wipe I played as Doctor Eex. I met people, hunted together, traveled together.
Tagged them :)
But I bet I killed some of them with my EW|BG|Sniper char.
Because 1)don't remember all chars I ever met
2)in most cases you don't have time to remmber
2 Kilgore nice logic for those who will attack anyway.
Only PKers don't need NC, because only with NC PKing may have some consequences...
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But I bet I killed some of them with my EW|BG|Sniper char.
Because 1)don't remember all chars I ever met
Funny when you're saying something about people killed by you because you didn't have them tagged, then something about people who "will attack anyway" :)
So basically you need an automated list to help you not PK those met by you before :D still something about PK? Keep talking.
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Avv's words:
Can't you just play with the same name? You all have your own nicks here at forums, that's how we recognize who's who.
I actually do that, but:
1) you can't force players to use the same (that is, a similar) name.
2) if you think about roleplay, it does not make much sense. Let's say my characters are all called Jack (Gunner Jack, Armor Jack , Sniper Jack, Burster Jack, Doctor Jack, Sneak Jack, Rocket Jack...). I'm not saying doing that would be wrong, but it just makes no sense when it comes to RP, because Jack would be some sort of post apocalyptic demigod... he would be something as ridiculously powerful as the Trascendent One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Planescape:_Torment#The_Transcendent_One) from Torment:
...unlike the Nameless One, the Transcendent One remembers the past lives that both shared - and retains all of the powers and skills gleaned from them.
3) it is very easy to "steal" another player's name that way. Of course "Jack" could add a list of his characters in his forum signature, but if you are roaming the Wastes and find "Death Jack", you won't have time to check Jack's signature before the impostor kills from you, steals from you, whatever.
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NameColorizing is basically a FOnline equivalent of an IFF system. It degrades every participant of a given battle to a colour tag making identification effortless and vastly simplifying interaction. I mean the reason for having that is always to spot and engage the enemy faster and with less hesitation. In an RPG game, even online, I figure you'd want to perceive other characters as individuals rather than mostly abstract representations of enemy/friendly soldiers - NC doesn't bring you closer to that. Furthermore, I find it ironic that the people generally speaking against turning 2238 into a run'n'gun server support expanding NC again. It serves no purpose other than having the potential of reducing every contact with another player to a binary "press the trigger/don't press the trigger" dilemma - and you can't even make a mistake if your list is up to date. It allows for bringing massive armies of people who don't really know each other to the field, which makes combat even less personnal than it already is with all the alting. To sum up, it aggravates every problem we have with player on player interaction - in my opinion there's no reason to even consider bringing it back.
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Your logic is failed, mister, because with Namecolorizing you can distinguish people who don't have to wear something different/have different hairstyle. Same like you would threw a red jacket at someone from *.txt list and somehow, that red jacket would be magically placed on him/her. You don't decide what clothes/hairstyle someone has put on - he decides. So, you just download a list and people "start wearing" some special clothes? :)
Kilgore, your obvious bad faith is discouraging.
Of course, you DO know that currently there ARE are only two colors: GREEN and RED.
Which means only 2 binary things: kill/ do not kill => maybe your way to play? I kill or I do not kill? => than ok, it fits perfectly to you.
But for those who like more complexity it's not satisfying (when I see a group and I know from which faction they are, i really like to go to them and discuss with them. Knowing their identity, I can have discussions about their diplomacy, ask them about their relationships with NPC factions, well it for sure enriches those who like to discuss RP things)
Of course you DO know that we can't count on current customization to enhance our identity and declare our gang membership without telling to everyone "hello, I am from XY gang and you?"
Of course you DO know that general reasons against NC are irrelevant because WE HAVE JUST TESTED the game WITHOUT for months and we have the same bad effects.
Yet! 3D will bring more character customization.
Ok but till then, can't we have it back?
I agree color custumization is poor but that's all we have atm in a clones world.
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Of course, you DO know that currently there ARE are only two colors: GREEN and RED.
Which means only 2 binary things: kill/ do not kill => maybe your way to play? I kill or I do not kill? => than ok, it fits perfectly to you.
But for those who like more complexity it's not satisfying (when I see a group and I know from which faction they are, i really like to go to them and discuss with them. Knowing their identity, I can have discussions about their diplomacy, ask them about their relationships with NPC factions, well it for sure enriches those who like to discuss RP things)
That'd be a perfect argument for getting rid of this feature altogether. With two colours it's "kill" and "don't kill". With more colours you get free feedback that enables you to easily command massive groups of people. Both things are pretty bad. And as far as diplomacy is concerned - do you really discuss important stuff with people you don't know, but have them on your NC list? I mean come on, how lazy did we get and where did the "it's good to know all the important names" attitude go?
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So maybe the solution would be to choose to have or not a color on one's name?
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15247.0
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I've said on various occasions that I (personally, as it's my choice) don't use 1) KILL 2) DON'T KILL, HE'S OURS policy. It was effective in BBS times, first 5-6 months after opening the beta. It gets boring quickly, especially when guarding the town. Also, even trading demands more interaction, not to mention some events or just standing somewhere and chatting with random people.
Of course you DO know better how I play the game, than me. Right?
Namecolorizing doesn't have anything with roleplay. People are distinguished by nicknames and their reputation, not colours. When I see a player that I have no idea what faction is he from, I can ask him about it. Of course, he can lie, but also, he can get caught lying =) Namecolorizing again does the job for you.
Every now and again some people say some ridiculous things about "PK consequences". Then let me make things clear for you: "PK" don't care about consequences, if they just shoot everyone on sight. It doesn't matter if you have him green, red, blue or yellow, you'll still have to fight with him. And if you happen to guard a town, he might just as well come with some blunub 1 lvl char and you can never know about it. So again, what consequences?
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Just add few more colors like blue , yellow and maybe brown.
Would be okay.
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I understand arguments from both sides but my concern is this;
If I were to kill an NPC faction member, all other NPC's of that faction will know I have done this and will shoot me on sight.
Such a repercussion makes me consider my action and its effect on my Karma.
However the same rule does not apply if I choose to kill a member of a PC faction;
it has no effect on my Karma rating and it will probably take the faction a long time to register me as a faction enemy which even then will only apply to some members of that faction, therefore I can opt to kill a PC faction member with far less consideration.
Clearly there is a double standard here.
Killing NPC? BAD KARMA!
Killing PC? eh... eventually the rest of his faction will catch on I suppose but the wasteland really doesn't give a shit and whats one more PC lying face down in the clay?
now don't get me wrong. The wasteland is all about meaningless deaths, but if we are going to handicap PC factions then why not handicap the NPC factions too? and if you going to say that removing Karma from NPC factions would make farming way to easy, well I could argue the same point for PC factions.
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Maybe I don't understand, but what does a Karma system have to do with name colorizing?
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Maybe I don't understand, but what does a Karma system have to do with name colorizing?
It's the only way the players have to be able to remember someone who acted bad and shoot him back. NPCs have reputation, players have NC.
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NPC store it in their memory, being a virtual one that is. Players don't have brains to store informations in?
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NPC store it in their memory, being a virtual one that is. Players don't have brains to store informations in?
try storing half the population of the game (100 right now) and all their alt's names in your brains.
half the population because that's my predicted PK percentage.
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zomg thats discussion is pointless, namecolorosing is good, wanted and very handy for all players who play TC, call them PK whatever u want.
role playing players / casuals/ loners wont gonna use it couse they dont need it, want it.
So just stop that jiber jaber and bring it back. I have rather fresh experiance with working namecolorising (requiem server current session) and its working just great in PvP.
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I am sorry for not reading every posts. No time today.
Just two prosals :
- Allow Name Colorizing, only during TC timer, and 15 minutes after timer is gone. So big gang would recognize each other. (like flags or uniform for any kind of military organizations)
- In other situations, player would keep manually give color to each other, but with, at least 10 different color. This green and red system allow only very poor relationship with player, with no system of level of trust.
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zomg thats discussion is pointless, namecolorosing is good, wanted and very handy for all players who play TC, call them PK whatever u want.
role playing players / casuals/ loners wont gonna use it couse they dont need it, want it.
So just stop that jiber jaber and bring it back. I have rather fresh experiance with working namecolorising (requiem server current session) and its working just great in PvP.
Sad that 2238 isn't just about PvP then, heh? :(
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but ur loved non PvP players just dont have to use/install namecolorising so whats the problem ?
and yes 2238 isnt only about PvP true but its mostly about it :p face the truth its MMO not cRPG so the main axis of this game is PvP.
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I give some level of relationship that i could have :
- He is a member of my gang (already have it)
- He is someone important (a faction leader or a GM/dev)
- He is a member of a long time allied faction. (TTTLA/VSB for instance)
- He is a player that started to fight amongs us recently.
- This is a bad player from a good faction.
- His kind of nice guy, that don't fight often
- I already have some relationship with this one, a start to like him. But i can't trust him for good.
- I already met this guy, but i have no idea of who is it.
- I never met this guy.
- I know this guy is untrustable, but i am not sure yet, if he is bad or not.
- He is a thief and a liar, but not a pk
- This is a neutral guy (mercenary) that could be bad or good, depending of the situation.
- I like him but we are from factions that are ennemies. We fight each other during battles, but play together when battle over. (some TTLA could have rogues friends for instance)
- This is a nice player from a bad faction.
- This person can be shot in some places, but not in others. (Redding, for instance)
- This guy is generally an ennemy, but these day, we figh on the same side (TTTLA and CS during peackeeper)
- This guy is an ennemy, but also someone with little common sense. We don't HAVE to fight each other everytime we meet.
- This guy is a lonnelly pk. He is bad, but not dangerous.
- This guy is an ennemy, that i may dislike, but with i may have to relationship with him. Sometime, we trade, or make negociations.
- This guy is a cold blood ennemy. No hesitation to fight agains't him.
- This guy is my worst ennemy, he base raped me 6 times, killed me 89000 times, and stole 9 of my characters, beat me in real-life, and raped my mother. I hate him, and want to kill him 1999054454 times if i can.
Right now, you only have 3 colours, which means, you can't start a relantionship by giving a neutral-good color. You can't give a chance to an ennemy to be neutral-bad. If you don't trust someone, you can give him grey color and forget the untrust, or red tag, and kill him the next time. If you already know someone and never fight side by side with hime, you give him the same color than someone you never met. There is no possibility of more relationship than your ability to remember names. (which are very numerous)
Some people that i like are from ennemies factions. I can't have any relantionship with them other than killing each other.
I ended with.
- Only long, long time allies, with green tag (need to be absolutly certain that the guy is good)
- Known ennemies, with red tag, watever they are always bad, or just sometimes (no other relation than fight)
- Everyone else grey, that i don't trust, and that i may shoot as well, when i am in a battle with numerous ennemies. (calling that martial law. To much people on map, no way to risk being shot by a grey guy)
The APK have to kill everyone they had ONE problem with. (by shooting accidentally an APK, you end up, been killed by all APK for years)
The PK have to be really, really bad, because no one will care if they are half bad, half good. (even if you try to make fair fight free PK, you will still be considered equal than someone who gridcamp, steal, base rape or troll)
More colors is better for APK AND PK.
I want more than 3 colours.
(don't care if it's automatic or manual, for one character, or all)
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Lots of colors set manually per-character seems really correct.
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do i get u right Izual ? ur proposing no namecolorising and just addition of few pitty colors to current green and red ?
u really think that anyone gonna manually (for god sake!) mark hundreds of alts ?
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It may be linked with someone's idea to have lists in Pipboy.
So you wont have to tag the head of the guy to have him on your list.
One problem will remain.
You should share your own list with you others own characters.
(more risk of abuse, but an huge comfort for player)
Maybe an encrypted namecolorizing, than can be used only by ten characters. (seems fair for a number of alts)
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u really think that anyone gonna manually (for god sake!) mark hundreds of alts ?
But my dear, you're already doing that 8)
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ofcooz im not my love , im not using that crappy system, i use crippled/retarded namecolorising (txt file linked with faction member list)
it works horrible, but even then its ten times better that point and click manually crappy green tagging
answer me that Izual:
Why u dont want for PvP players (who are soil of this server) to have good working feature (full namecolorising system) , when all other players (RP,loners,etc) just DONT HAVE TO USE namecolorising. It doesnt make any differance for them! Not a bit! U can make ur manually point and click/ with even 10 colors for them if u want.
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answer me that Izual:
Why u dont want for PvP players (who are soil of this server) to have good working feature (full namecolorising system) , when all other players (RP,loners,etc) just DONT HAVE TO USE namecolorising. It doesnt make any differance for them! Not a bit! U can make ur manually point and click/ with even 10 colors for them if u want.
He just don't like PvP players and want them to suffer as much as possible. No other reason.
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None of your posts make sense, I think I'm going to do just like everybody else, stop replying :-\
Edit, @Rascal: If you want answers to your questions, read this (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=11015.msg91895#msg91895) keeping in mind 2238 is not a game based on PvP.
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Edit, @Rascal: If you want answers to your questions, read this (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=11015.msg91895#msg91895) keeping in mind 2238 is not a game based on PvP.
Damn i don't see any other things in 2238 right now that pvp, because roleplay is dead, questless ( we need more dungeons instances much harder). Oh sorry yea other than pvp, trolling people in towns... damn sad
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Even for roleplayer this is a very usefull feature. I bet WWP would have loved to have this feature to recognize troublemaker, allies, random but nice guys... it just add something to the game, it allow a whole "political" and deep diplomatic relations, allow to some peoples who don't shoot on sight to be a bit less stressed...
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Yes, it allows for indepth metagaming. It further undermines that people aren't even trying to "roleplay" when each of their alts just magically knows all the players friends/foes, instead that the character makes up his own enemies or friends. It's breaking the forth wall. It also leeches unique interaction between players, as the aformentionend examples already showed. "lol I've never seen this guy but he is green so he must be a p. cool guy/oh noez he is red, we must shoot him (never heard that name before btw). It degrades interaction between players even further into just some binary crap - "cool guy" "pretty cool guy" "friend" "kill on sight" etc.
But it's not that we've had these discussions already during the course of this thread and several threads of the same nature before. It's gone, deal with it.
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Yes, it allows for indepth metagaming. It further undermines that people aren't even trying to "roleplay" when each of their alts just magically knows all the players friends/foes, instead that the character makes up his own enemies or friends. It's breaking the forth wall. It also leeches unique interaction between players, as the aformentionend examples already showed. "lol I've never seen this guy but he is green so he must be a p. cool guy/oh noez he is red, we must shoot him (never heard that name before btw). It degrades interaction between players even further into just some binary crap - "cool guy" "pretty cool guy" "friend" "kill on sight" etc.
But it's not that we've had these discussions already during the course of this thread and several threads of the same nature before. It's gone, deal with it.
Hell yea, u saw on wall somebody is wanted, you meet him and u just ask if he is that guy *burst in face* its so true... Damn Surf your argument do antyrealism :D If somebody say this guys is cool you dont need to meet him before because somebody said it. Colorising is something like that
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How about that a faction reputation system gets implemented like this.
A and B are players A belongs to player faction X, B belongs to nobody. B meets A and kill him he gets -100 toward player faction X. Then be kills two more guy from Faction X now he is at -300 so from now on all member of Faction X sees him as enemy but if time passed the rep goes down like in npc factions now to make it more interesting lets say Faction X members ambush San Francisco Caravans and kill a lot of them the Faction X gets a -10 rep from each kill any member does against SF now then this minus rep gets added to the rep of each members. To make up with SF faction X decides that try to help out San Francisco the members of the faction help San Fransico's interest either by healing their caravan guards or killing their enemies this way for each rep gain the faction get lets say +5 and this gets to count in the reputation of all faction members.
About the name colorizer I have nothing against it haven't been around when it was around so I don't know how things were at that time and I'm not that bad with names as long as they are not like this 3L00rD or written in cyrillic letters but the mercenaries and followers could use an in game kill em list or don't harm them list. Also having more color to add to players would be better as long as its happens in game like typing it inside the pipboy and that list would be used for the followers too.
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I think more color (far more than ten) is worth to try. (manual)
But yes, most of us miss the namecolorising. (who doesn't ?)
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How about that a faction reputation system gets implemented like this.
A and B are players A belongs to player faction X, B belongs to nobody. B meets A and kill him he gets -100 toward player faction X. Then be kills two more guy from Faction X now he is at -300 so from now on all member of Faction X sees him as enemy but if time passed the rep goes down like in npc factions now to make it more interesting lets say Faction X members ambush San Francisco Caravans and kill a lot of them the Faction X gets a -10 rep from each kill any member does against SF now then this minus rep gets added to the rep of each members. To make up with SF faction X decides that try to help out San Francisco the members of the faction help San Fransico's interest either by healing their caravan guards or killing their enemies this way for each rep gain the faction get lets say +5 and this gets to count in the reputation of all faction members.
About the name colorizer I have nothing against it haven't been around when it was around so I don't know how things were at that time and I'm not that bad with names as long as they are not like this 3L00rD or written in cyrillic letters but the mercenaries and followers could use an in game kill em list or don't harm them list. Also having more color to add to players would be better as long as its happens in game like typing it inside the pipboy and that list would be used for the followers too.
makes sense to me, a faction is a faction.
The fact is that A LOT of people already shoot on sight any way (role playing? hard to do if your dead) . If your not the kind of person who shoots on sight you have no chance because you are knocked out or crippled while trying to type 'hello'.
Now as a person who likes to RP I would be in favour of an active PvP karma system. I mean if your the kind of guy who enjoys trolling the waste killing anyone and everyone for a few caps then from an RP perspective wouldn't you want some tangible street-cred? How about you kill a loner blue-suite and spit on his dying face, his last act is to tag you red which gives you a bit of global negative karma. The more negative global karma you get the redder your name gets for non-affiliated chars, and vice-versa for positive actions.
This doesn't cancel out RP, it just adds the dimension of reputation which is something that happens naturally in any real society. People who have polarized reputations get preceded by them. That's the way it worked in medieval society, thats the way it worked in the ol'west, thats the way it works these days and thats the way it will work on martian colonies in 2140.
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NPC store it in their memory, being a virtual one that is. Players don't have brains to store informations in?
and another great post from the admins that later ask for our donations
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which isn't even the point, i have better things to do than make up mnemonic devices to remember names like DumAzzzz3458372
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Players don't have brains to store informations in?
Seriously... its really a bad joke ! ^^
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Against. I like it how I meet unknown guys in the wasteland and give them a chance, instead of having them instantly recognized by a database I downloaded on my faction's website.
Namecolorizing's gone and I like it like that. Yeah. :P
x2
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hell yeah, just bring it back!!!!!
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Something that may worth trying.
The namecolorizing file, but on a website.
You register an account (with login and password) on the website to have access to your own namecolorizing.
You add a limited number of fonline characters, that will use this namecolorizing. (with login and passwords) So, this namecolorizing will work with more than one characters. (ten characters, for one player, seems quite fair)
Then, you add the list of characters that you want to give the various colors. You can't copy-paste and entire list, in one row, but you add your friends, ennemies and others, one by one. (like a faction computer)
Then, you save.
This namecolorizing will work on your ten characters.
The advantages :
- The names are added manually
- You gain various colors
- You don't have to tag all player, with all of your characters.
- This namecolorizing will be used by multiple characters of your own.
- You still can have various namecolorizing, depending of the type of your characters. (when you log a pk, you wouldn't automatically keep an apk namecolorizing.
- It couldn't be used by a whole faction.
- It couldn't be massivelly shared.
- New players wouldn't automatically have a list of ennemies, when they first log.
- Everyone would be happy.
The unconvenients:
- We use an external application
- The dev must admit that we all have multiple characters. (which is not a secret for anyone, and even normal for a beta-test)
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...
Much work... For what? For a pain in the ass system which will be filled by bots (cause entering each name one by one is too annoying to be done manually, it's already why nobody use faction terminal) and which will give the very exact same result (seriously you really think it won't be shared?) than the good old namecolorizing, which was easy to use, effective, and very useful.
All arguments are bulls...
- The names are added manually
In what is it an advantage?
- You still can have various namecolorizing, depending of the type of your characters. (when you log a pk, you wouldn't automatically keep an apk namecolorizing.
Just have 2 NC and rename it when you need... Or add an option to give different NC to different char with the old NC.
- It couldn't be used by a whole faction.
It will be. Easy to have a list, and little prog which enter everyone.
- It couldn't be massivelly shared.
It will be. See above.
- New players wouldn't automatically have a list of ennemies, when they first log.
They wouldn't anyway. You have to go to forum, understand what faction is what, choose the NC of one faction who published it and that you think you can trust, and download it. What kind of new player do that?
- Everyone would be happy.
No.
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Currently NC is great. 2 line of text and all my gang mates are colored. It is just great.
In old one I needed to add every nick one by one. It was pure wasting of time.
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Currently NC is great. 2 line of text and all my gang mates are colored. It is just great.
In old one I needed to add every nick one by one. It was pure wasting of time.
Only your nothing more
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Currently NC is great. 2 line of text and all my gang mates are colored. It is just great.
In old one I needed to add every nick one by one. It was pure wasting of time.
If this is sarcasm, then +1 for nice trolling.
If you're serious, then you're idiot
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Crazy >
- Adding the names manually
So the anti-namecolorizing league would be happy too.
And the namecolorizing will come back.
- For the bot.
There must be a way, of preventing that. (For instance, a system that force you to tape the letters showed on a picture, every x characters you entered)
- For limiting the manual pain in the ass thing
The namecolorizing would work for a defined number of characters (10 for instance)
So the pain in the ass would happen only one time per player.
Plus, only those who really care about namecolorising will use it.
- The actual team namecolorizing.
There must be a way that the new one doesn't override the team one...
- A new system
We are beta tester. Why wouldn't we try it and see what happens ?
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If this is sarcasm, then +1 for nice trolling.
If you're serious, then you're idiot
The fact he does not share your opinion does not make him idiot, however the fact you post this makes you one.
It'd be much easier for people who uses these board to acutally improve their game to have them clear as much as possible.
Anyway as for my opinion on colors - as green/red are low level private personal ratings, and you have option to choose your own colors for people in your faction (which is unfortunately the only of two ways to see who is in your faction), I think it'd be nice to have it completed by faction database - option to rate or even color other people prepared by faction officers.
Eg. if we go for earlier - you might still tag red/green and 2 more color types like light green/red for faction friends and enemies. Your faction would get another color.
While this would reduce your options even more (one could imagine you could've tag tanks other color than rest of your teammates or anything), you will not share data outside game and factions would make a little more sense than just being for storages and TC.
Namecolorizing could then work as a configuration file for existing colors, so you can pick your own taste (which is very useful since green/red is not always that fortunate and some might want to use other combinations)
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Just make colorizing to possible add other factions color like our faction nickname color is purple that for example TTTLA will be blue
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Can't get your idea Johnnybravo (text is confuse)
I think the dev doesn't want that an entire faction has the same namecolorizing, or that other faction has a color.
Personnally i think it doesn't matter.
What i think, is that we lack of level of diplomacy with individual player, because of the loss of name colorizing.
So, if we could have a way to bring back namecolorizing, without the faction part, it would be fine with me.
One other possibility is to have the old namecolorizing, but only working in TC towns, during the timer, and 15 minutes after. (but i prefer the website possibility)
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[...]my gang mates[...]
Only your nothing more
I know peoples which prefer old NC system but for me current is much better. I am not supporter of alliances and I don't want to colour all nicks. Ofc old one was also good, but it was almost impossible to have valid NC. It was always outdated. The new doesn't need any update. It's great for me and my playing style.
If this is sarcasm, then +1 for nice trolling.
If you're serious, then you're idiot
Yeah, I can say the same about your post. So:
If this is sarcasm, then +1 for nice trolling.
If you're serious, then you're idiot
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Most people are still assuming that name colorizing is only valid for TC, but I'm pretty sure it's just as valid for loners.
As the game only has one server (which I enjoy) we need to remember that there are a lot of names in one language (or even alphabet) which makes it difficult for a player speaking another language to simply remember every name that has wronged him.
Most people who play for the first time get killed a lot in the beginning by PK's, only to realize an error in their build causing them to create a new character who is now open to getting killed by many of the same people. This is very frustrating for them and I have spoken with a few.
Since we are in a beta test which has such a high drop out rate when it comes to keeping new players in the game I don't see how we can truly progress the test without throwing the new guys a bone. Who knows what will happen to the game when a couple more hundred people decide they like to play it? but I think I might know what will happen if they all decide they don't.
sure they need to get use to PK's roaming the waste, thats a fact of life, but why frustrate them unnecessarily simply because they don't understand a foreign alphabet? or because some people play with ridiculously un-memorable names?
The people I'm talking about aren't even part of this conversation because they either don't yet know the forum exists or they have already walked away from the game all together
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Is there any proposal that seems fair to be implemented ? ::)
A lot of us want some colors. We just disagree of which.
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I liked your idea of it being customizable on an individual basis
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NC should be brought back. It works like karma
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removing of namecolorizing was futile step backward
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The new name colourizing should get some advantages from the old one.
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removing of namecolorizing was futile step backward
Agree. And still nobody can understand WHY???!!!! namecolorize was killed. Except developers - but the explanation is .... far from reasonable reasons ;) , IMO
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Agree. And still nobody can understand WHY???!!!! namecolorize was killed. Except developers - but the explanation is .... far from reasonable reasons ;) , IMO
I'm pretty sure they have said that they "didn't like it" and at the end of the day that was probably all the reasoning it needed.
I'm also pretty sure they aren't listening to us anymore regarding this topic...
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I remember times when there was no NC or red/green tagging , and everyone was happy.
There was no zerg alliances .
I suggest to delete namecolourizing completly from the game .
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I remember times when there was no NC or red/green tagging , and everyone was happy.
RDA/Cajuns/VSB alliance started before NC. Now it is resticted and didn't prevent any alliance either. It doesn't change much, just handy when you do it.
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No one never asked to have nc , and there was no problem to rp and other shit .
Now players cry to bring it back , is it so hard to remember your friends nicknames?
BTW. I personally don't use it , i use my brain, which most of the players don't use.
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The new name colourizing should get some advantages from the old one.
No changes regarding the NC are planned.
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Well its sad news but no prob I haven't used the old system so I'm not that unhappy though would have been interesting to try something like that. Anyway I hope some kind of faction to faction rep will get implemented in a similar way I wrote previously here or in a better one.
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Dev>
I may ask too much, but could you give your opinion about ajustements proposals ?
Most of us (if not all) want namecolorizing to come back. The only blame Izual gave was the automatic stuff, for new players. There are some good ways to avoid this. If you don't like them, please say why. So we can propose new solutions.
Om3n>
No offense, but if your gamestyle is pvp only agains't everyone but my few mates, then nc isn't needed.
But if you want to increase the level of relationship with EVERY wastelanders, (even those names SGKKSGK, Kazuza, Kazazu, Azaku, Azacu.. and Azazu), then you need a better tagging system.
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You can increase relationships with other people just fine, without colors above their heads.
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Surf, if nothing's gonna happen with the namecolorizing anyway, why don't you just lock this thread and shut everyone up?
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As you wish then.