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Author Topic: Bring back old colourizing  (Read 23658 times)

Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2010, 08:50:23 am »

Old NC:
- too much additional time wasted to add new faction nicknames to it, enemies, other players, additional time wasted for making everyone download and use current list
- "I have never seen that dude but somehow magically, I know from which team he is! C'mon, I've just downloaded our latest NC!" <- it's stupid imo
- no way to make one list which always make all gang members coloured, without need to update it
- easy to make large alliances, just update one list and make everyone download it

New NC:
- you probably make one list and have all gang members coloured, without worrying about updating it
- you know who is who if you encountered the player before and remember his name, what he was doing etc.
- more difficult to make large alliances, as you need one base to add all chars or remember all nicknames of allied members (and hope that they remember you also)

"Namecolorizing" thing is just against fallout reality imo.

Izual

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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2010, 09:31:57 am »

To me, the fight against Namecolorizing is above all a fight for realism and equality in this game.

With Namecolorizing, bigger factions are given an advantage towards the smaller ones. Each member of a faction adds his own encountered players to the list. This means if everyone adds two characters to Namecolorizing per day, a faction with 50 members will have +100 names in his Namecolorizing per day and a faction with 10 players, +20 names. This is how some big factions looked like the CIA last wipe, and some others like nothing. It is as unfair and unfalloutish as having a daily income because you controlled a city once and put all the caps in your bank.

We are playing a multiplayer Fallout game, guys, not World Domination Corporation. This game should not be about getting as many caps as possible and as many colored guys as possible. In this topic I heard both "It prevents us from sparing lives in TC because now we have to shoot everybody" and "The lack of Namecolorizing is not at all a problem for bigger factions". Well, you know what. I think it's better like that. You "need" to shoot everyone during Town Control operations? You're trying to control a town using guns and shiny armors, lads, so don't start worrying about your poor collateral victims. The bigger your alliance will be, the more you will try to seize control of something - the more you will kill innocent people. This is not a problem. This doesn't need to be fixed. The argument about "innocent victims" - which is not a new one - is an invalid argument. There is always a possibility to chose not to kill; if you chose to kill, then it is because your goal - most of the times, TC - is more important than killing few innocent wanderers. And obviously, it is. You're a gang trying to seize control of a town thanks to pure strength, so don't whine about needed violence to achieve this goal. If Town Control is such a slaughter, then I suggest you stop doing it - reading the posts above mine, it looks like you won't need Namecolorizing anymore.

Now that was about the irrelevance of some of the arguments I heard; I will now try to explain what bothers me the most with Namecolorizing system. One of these things is, as stated in the first paragraph, that not all factions are equal with it. It's another thing that gives bigger gangs advantages towards smaller gangs, that have no Intelligence Department. The second thing, and I don't think it is an arguable point, is that Namecolorizing is shareable. You start in the game, here's a list of who's who, who is good and evil. You add a guy in your Namecolorizing, hey, the whole team will now shoot him or not shoot him.
I believe in players interactions. I want to have tagged only the people I know. This is why the current system is fine, by the way - maybe more colors would be good, I don't see a problem with adding more: you can only tag people that you met. And in this game, people you met are almost all the time people that you talked with or fought with. Lordus, you said that it's annoying to have to repeat to your team-mates "Don't shoot X, don't shoot Y, don't shoot Z". Well, this is what happens in real fights, you know. I don't want to have someone tagged green that I never met. Maybe you do. I don't want to have friends I never heard of, nor enemies I never heard of. Namecolorizing is a team-to-team vision, current system is based on individual relationships. And I think it fits Fallout better, as well as enhancing game experience. What is the most interesting - to download a huge home-made list of who to shoot and who not to shoot, or to meet people, to talk with them, to interact with them, and only then to tag them?

Yes, I'm only talking about tagging red and green. "That's not true! Namecolorizing.txt provides a lot of different colors". Wrong. Even if you use a lot of colors (one for each team, for example), orange, blue, grey, white, purple, all these colors can be put in two categories: "To shoot" and "Not to shoot". Red and green. This is a nonsense to talk about mid-evil people or mid-good people in this game; if you want to have cautious attitude with someone, leave him untagged or make a third color for "To be cautious with" characters.

Another of the used arguments is something like this: "Namecolorizing allows us to recognize teams". Yes, sure it does, I can't deny it. There's only one problem: this list of faction members is available to you even if you never heard of the faction. Also, it is a subjective list, made by your friends. I am in favor of "teams recognition", like with some kind of uniform for each faction or with Jack_FR's logos-in-nicks idea. It is different from Namecolorizing for two reasons: first, it is fair because everyone has the same information. Second, it is an objective information. No red, no green: Player X is member of team Y. I don't see any problem with this kind of information if there is no way to personalize it - one color/flag/uniform chosen randomly for each faction, I think this is fair. Everyone sees faction Y with blue and yellow stripes, everyone sees faction Z with black and white flag, that was given to them by the server. But as far as I know, developers don't want this kind of instant-recognition. By then, I prefer current system - you make your own, un-shareable records. A personal and subjective list of the people you met - the very same character diary that can be found in any good role-playing game.
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runboy93

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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2010, 09:59:33 am »

We are playing a multiplayer Fallout game, guys, not World Domination Corporation. This game should not be about getting as many caps as possible and as many colored guys as possible.
I know that you are played Fallout games much Izual.. and you should know that Fallout is nothing more than killing persons!
You maybe do it for good, but still.. you kill people and become great vault dweller.
And i remember i said sometime something about caps and power.
If you got caps you got everything

Kinkin

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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2010, 11:11:11 am »

You know Izual we talk about it yesterday on Mumble, from our point of view, different colors, even if it's a "dark" color doesnt mean we will shoot.

For example, before wipe, we used orange color for people "under investigation", this means we saw these people do bad things but they aren't considerated as outlaw, we just keep an eye on their actions to see how they really play, then we change their colors when we are sure.

Light pink color was used for people who were outlaw but don't want to be anymore outlaw, they are on reconciliation status to us... So we keep our atention on them, and if after a short time they proved their good actions, we exclude them from the list.

These examplesworks with Lawyers cases, but i'm sure that many other teams used it in that way.

There are :
- bad guys to shoot on sight
- Bad  guys to observe and judge
- Bad guys "trusted" (for example some usual TC ooponents but with who we can talk in peace when it's not TC)
- Random Bad Guy (shooted only if it's a threat)
- Neutral Guys
- Good Guys

So color on names doesn't means "automatic shoot". it depends on context.

"Indexing" wasteland is part of our roleplay, and this part doesn't really exist right now, because it's only red-white-green. We used to like doing massive taging and provide full list of one team or list of criminals ike our old LCR(Lawyer Criminal Record).



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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2010, 11:26:56 am »

A personal and subjective list of the people you met - the very same character diary that can be found in any good role-playing game.

Good role-playing games also have combat that doesn't rely so much on first strike, or you can atleast see when random player is going to attack you before you got a bullet in your skull.
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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2010, 11:41:52 am »

I know that you are played Fallout games much Izual.. and you should know that Fallout is nothing more than killing persons!
You maybe do it for good, but still.. you kill people and become great vault dweller.
And i remember i said sometime something about caps and power.
If you got caps you got everything

We're talking FOnline here, not Fallout single player.
Fallout 1 and 2 can be played without killing anyone.

As member of a small faction I have to agree to what Izual says as it makes sense.
However there should be a way to identify fellow faction members as such.
Perhaps a required peak in the faction terminal would do.
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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2010, 12:03:14 pm »

Namecolorising should be done by a game engine, not by hands. Here is what i mean:

All members of your faction should be green. All pk\blockers in town should be made red by a system.

You could introduce gang relations like Allience\war  -   people in same ally are green\blue, people at war are red.

Maybe even allow gangs at mutual war shoot each other no matter where.

Neutrals are always gray and lone PK's are always gray.

This is realistic as normally different factions do smth to look different (although game engine does not allow it yet) so you can clearly distinquish ally from an enemy.
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Ned Logan

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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2010, 12:28:10 pm »

Old NC:
- "I have never seen that dude but somehow magically, I know from which team he is! C'mon, I've just downloaded our latest NC!" <- it's stupid imo
(Izual saying something similar)

Let me quite myself as argument against that:
Namecolorizing should be percieved as nothing more then convenient abstraction of memorizing mugshot posters.
If you want more realism, remove server side colorizing, bring back client file-based colorizing and show only as much names colorized from the list as characters intelligence or something...
Mugshot posters fit Fallout reality 200% IMHO, there currently is nothing like it in game. Maybe you don't need it for your gameplay style, but lot of other people want it.

Anuri: Colorizing by game system is just as "great" as karma systems...
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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2010, 12:45:50 pm »

"Great" or not but you can always distinquish a raider from an NCR ranger - same here really.
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Lordus

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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2010, 02:41:16 pm »


Actually : you are good or evil or neutral.


 You are in alliance (green), or hostile (no colour) or turbo hostile (red), because there is not any way how to tag every hostile player red, because in the middle of the battle, players have to shoot, not tag enemy.

Old NC:
- "I have never seen that dude but somehow magically, I know from which team he is! C'mon, I've just downloaded our latest NC!" <- it's stupid imo


 For christ, imagine in real world, that you attacked police. Every police member in the country will get information about attacker. It is nonsense what are you telling. I have to repeat, for ANTI PK gangs it reduces the possibility of creating relations among gangs and players, because we could not asign them adequade colour and nocolour is reserved for both, hostile and neutrals.

To me, the fight against Namecolorizing is above all a fight for realism and equality in this game.

 And what is real at fact that you can survive 2 bursts from minigun? Game is always the mix of realism, abstraction, gameplay to make balance game.


With Namecolorizing, bigger factions are given an advantage towards the smaller ones. Each member of a faction adds his own encountered players to the list. This means if everyone adds two characters to Namecolorizing per day, a faction with 50 members will have +100 names in his Namecolorizing per day and a faction with 10 players, +20 names. This is how some big factions looked like the CIA last wipe, and some others like nothing. It is as unfair and unfalloutish as having a daily income because you controlled a city once and put all the caps in your bank.

 

 1) Nonsense, there is not faction with 50 members.
 2) Adding new names is not so often as you write here.
 3) PK gangs does not have intention to add neutral players into list, they have red (TTLA, VSB, Hawks, CS/Rogues) and green.

In this topic I heard both "It prevents us from sparing lives in TC because now we have to shoot everybody" and "The lack of Namecolorizing is not at all a problem for bigger factions". Well, you know what. I think it's better like that.
 

 It is not problem for PK gangs. They have red players and green.

  One story about how Hawks became alliance of VSB:

 Their original name was egoslayers. They were not on our mumble, even they were czech/slovak too. First regular contant with them was when they were looting stuff from our dead bodies after TC PvP. We tagged them red and told him on their forum that they are hostile to us. After some discussion and argumenting, we give them "orange colour", that means, Not kill them on sight, but if they will loot, PKilling, attacking us, spying us, there is not any restriction to kill them. After some time, they organized and equiped, so they were capturing cities. They tried to capture our city, so we went there prepared to fight, but because they were not pure hostile to us, we settle a deal, that we will help them to capture their own city. After this cooperation and few other fights, we gave them friend status and after we moved to our mumble, we allied with them. Nice story, isnt it? But true.

 Current NC does not allow us to do it same. They will still be neutral and they will still be shooted and possibility of make a relationn with them is ZERO. PK gangs, like Rogues and CS do not need this feauture, because they will kill them at first possibility. We need this. Thank you Izual, that you understand this, even you did not play in gang for whole existence of 2238.

Lordus, you said that it's annoying to have to repeat to your team-mates "Don't shoot X, don't shoot Y, don't shoot Z". Well, this is what happens in real fights, you know.
 

 In real fights (expect urban terrism), soldiers have UNIFORMS.


Even if you use a lot of colors (one for each team, for example), orange, blue, grey, white, purple, all these colors can be put in two categories: "To shoot" and "Not to shoot".

 Enemy = Red and possibility to recognize them because of different shades. It gave us to settle a temporary alliances with even hostile teams. No we could not do that.
 Caution = looters, spies, suicide bombers, Vedaras, ...  We dont have a duty to kill them on sight, but only if they want to repat their hostile behaviour. No we shoot them on sight.
 Neutral = new small faction that we met in wasteland. We dont know them, if they are PK or not PK, but we talked with them and there is possibility that we can make another agreement with them. Every our player is safe to talk with them and he is not to be aware of attack from their side
 Friendly team/player = team/player that is not in our alliance, but helps us, loot our stuff and then bring back to us, we often trade with them.
 Alliance = no need to explain this.

 Current system reduce all possible relations into: Alliance (green), and hostile (no coulour). Red is not used, because we have no possibility to tag red enemy (even Rogues or CS only) player with this colour.

 Proof? what gangs were trying to TC this era? CS, Rogues (BH hunters = alts of Rogues), TTTLA, VSB, Hawks.. There were 2 other teams, but they were killed, because we just simply dont know, who are they.


Another of the used arguments is something like this: "Namecolorizing allows us to recognize teams". Yes, sure it does, I can't deny it. There's only one problem: this list of faction members is available to you even if you never heard of the faction. Also, it is a subjective list, made by your friends.

 Warsavian pakt forces invade Czechoslovakia in 1968. There were Soviet soldires from ural, and officers told them, that they have to strike because of war here.  No war was in Czechoslovakia, only kind of relasing pressure from state, more liberty in medias... But those Soldires striked, they had order. Nothing unusual in real world.

 In opposite, we have our forum, we are often in guarded cities and everyone, who thinks that is on our black list by mistake, has chance to notice us.

 Also, gangs are not changing information about neutral players among them, mostly about temates and pure enemies. So even neutral player could create relationship. And non green players means that we dont have any reason why to attack him and we can talk with him...

 
yesterday i have been thinking about namecolorising and other issues with running big organisation
and i vote no for NC, ofcourse when developers remove one feature - lossing control by killing tc controler

 Yes, because you are PK gang and you need to recognize only your mates and thats all. current NC is satisfiyng for you. But not for ANTI PK gangs. We need more possibilities than shoot on sight/teamate
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 02:50:24 pm by Lordus »
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maszrum

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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2010, 02:47:38 pm »

yesterday i have been thinking about namecolorising and other issues with running big organisation
and i vote no for NC, ofcourse when developers remove one feature - lossing control by killing tc controler
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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2010, 03:15:46 pm »

For christ, imagine in real world, that you attacked police. Every police member in the country will get information about attacker. It is nonsense what are you telling. I have to repeat, for ANTI PK gangs it reduces the possibility of creating relations among gangs and players, because we could not asign them adequade colour and nocolour is reserved for both, hostile and neutrals.
For christ, this is not real world and there is no global police in fallout (even if you want to be part of one).
Also, this is not quake where you have different teams coloured up nicely.

I don't know what common have colours with relations, I have positive relations with some players of other factions (yes, your allies too) and I don't need any colours for that, only nicknames which I know from game, forum, irc etc.

Although this I liked a lot:

Quote
Proof? what gangs were trying to TC this era? CS, Rogues (BH hunters = alts of Rogues), TTTLA, VSB, Hawks.. There were 2 other teams, but they were killed, because we just simply dont know, who are they.

BHH are alts of Rogues, right.. so Hawks are alts of VSB? :) Well nevermind that bullshit propaganda, you just admit that you killed some teams with people you completely don't know, just because... they tried town control? :)

Izual

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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2010, 03:21:40 pm »

Quote
For christ, this is not real world and there is no global police in fallout (even if you want to be part of one).
I have to second this.

As I wrote in this topic, I'm against implementing NC again because some APK factions absolutely need these shiny colors in order to stop shooting at random people. I respect the APK stuff, but now this is getting too far.
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Lordus

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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2010, 03:31:21 pm »

For christ, this is not real world and there is no global police in fallout (even if you want to be part of one).
Also, this is not quake where you have different teams coloured up nicely.

 It is not real world and it is not game? What are you talking about. I wrote you dozens of reasons why we need NC back to improve gameplay of non PK gang.
I don't know what common have colours with relations, I have positive relations with some players of other factions (yes, your allies too) and I don't need any colours for that, only nicknames which I know from game, forum, irc etc.


 Read again my previous post. How you can manage relationship among 15 player with one individual, if every one blusuit is possible enemy scout (and in fact, majority is).


BHH are alts of Rogues, right.. so Hawks are alts of VSB? :) Well nevermind that bullshit propaganda, you just admit that you killed some teams with people you completely don't know, just because... they tried town control? :)

 Back to topic. It is not about relation among you and BHH.


 So Izual, do you agree that without NC creating relation among ANTI PK gangs (Rogues and CS dont need it), is impossible because of facts i wrote? Or you still think that gangs with 15 plus players could make stable relations with each single player without this feauture?
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Re: Bring back old colourizing
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2010, 03:36:20 pm »

If there is a shootout every sane blueshirt would run away from town, so it's ok if gangs fighting for TC assume neutrals as enemies.I would for sure, since they are probably here to loot and spy.
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