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[maszrum]

heh its funny to read that lordus, you are just pk like most of your team
last, true antipk are old orphans. so you really need this nc


udpate: sorry izual i wont, this disscusion is not about pk and antipk - btw still dont get pk thing, its fucking wasteland

[Izual]

So Izual, do you agree that without NC creating relation among ANTI PK gangs (Rogues and CS dont need it), is impossible because of facts i wrote?

No, I disagree. I don't think you absolutely need NC to create relations, my own opinion is that Namecolorizing is precisely the opposite of creating relationships - same as uniforms prevent oneself from being asked questions about his background.

Or you still think that gangs with 15 plus players could make stable relations with each single player without this feature?

I think it is not a problem to make stable relations with lone players, regardless of the numbers of players you have in your team. I also think that, for an APK gang, being involved in TC is very difficult - if not impossible.

But you said yourself that the only ones to need Namecolorizing are 15+ members APK gangs. I can only agree, and be against the implementation of such a powerful tool just because you need it to stop killing innocent people during TC. My two cents.

Edit: MSH, use valuable arguments please. This is (was) a serious discussion.

[Kilgore]

Edit: MSH, use valuable arguments please. This is (was) a serious discussion.

Yeah maybe it was supposed to, but right now every reply of Lordus is
- read my post again, maybe it will finally convince you
or
- you rogues you don't need NC you bad blah blah

Really boring so I stop here, I've already said what I had to say on the topic, I'm sure devs are going to read nice stories about uniforms and 1968 intervention, thanks.

[Lordus]

The real problem, Izual, is that me and you play different Fonline. For you it is idea of single player with few friends he made in wasteland or during chat in NCR bazaar. Your single player is challenging wasteland with its own dangers, exploring the unknown world. Yes, i played this before too in first era, where there was no voice comm and everyhing was new.

 But now, i am playing as a member of gang with more than 15 players, we choose the hardest way, not to PK for stuff, like Rogues and CS do from first day after wipe (and because of this, they dont need to craft, they just parasite on basic crafters work) and then they rush their TC expansion. If we want to suceed, we need to create relationship with similar, smaller gangs (Hawks, TTTLA,...), we need to show to bluesuits, if someone like this still exist in fonline, that even we are gang, we play different role as a gang.

 But absence of NC is de facto eliminating this team gameplay for us.

 Another example. I create relation with some player, noob, give him some basic stuff for start (i already did it with my second alt, that was broadcasting from NCR, until Jovanka B decided, that this dual log is threat for balanced gameplay of Fonline (how funny if you compare it to current FOCD, fast relog during combat abusing) and he jailed me and de facto ruined RP of that kind).  Back to topic, i created relation with many players, talked with them, they offers me better prices for resources, even they player few hexes away offered him double price. It was okay, he was neutral, no colour, and few players upgraded to friend colours in our NC.

 But now? I described why we use only Green one and rest (no colour, red colour) are deserved for hostile players becase there is not NC. It is not my problem, it is problem of all. No coulour means hostile, if you dont want to be killed.



 You say: NC causes compartmentalization into GOOD (not shoot) and EVIL (shoot on sight)

 I say: NC allow us to recognize our enemy and friends and gives a SPACE to create relation with others than previous two groups and possibility to give them kind of status that could be underscored by other colours

[Dark Angel]

I see loootss of   post about that suggestion..



Old colorzing should back or reworked by that way :
- You see faction member in random color automatically (Faction member color should be changed in confing or NC)
- You can add friend to your colorzing ONLY by tagged them green ( and his nick should be green on all your alts.)
- Same ass friend you can add enemy by tagged them red.

[Lordus]

I see loootss of   post about that suggestion..



Old colorzing should back or reworked by that way :
- You see faction member in random color automatically (Faction member color should be changed in confing or NC)
- You can add friend to your colorzing ONLY by tagged them green ( and his nick should be green on all your alts.)
- Same ass friend you can add enemy by tagged them red.

And if someone has tagged player red and other teammeber  green (coindidence, or just he was PK one player, another knows him)... it does not solve the problem that whole gang makes a policy among other gangs and rest players.

 All you everyone tried to invent here, by adding new regulation and limitation, will not solve the problem that Maszrum will first day after wipe kill players in tanker with his new alt and i will not be possible to tag player for whole gang by friend colour.

 Did you ever though about situation, that player marked by some friend colour, even they did not meet them, will have special reason to in game talk.

"Hey dude,  your name is in gang friend colour, but i dont know you, who are you?"  
 "I am Jovanka B, no gang, are you from VSB?"
 "Yes, do you know someone from our gang?"
 "Yes, Lordus, he is a good boy, he helped me witch catching dual loggers, while i was Game Master."
 "Realy, who did you caught, JovankaB?"
 "Lordus's alts"

 Do you see that possibilities? ))

 

[Doctor Eex]

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

redirected by Izual , lol
wonder, why Izual just did not merge threads
And btw, Iz, we had a poll in the tread!

2 Killgore from here http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15219.msg124449#msg124449

what about any good reasons to bring it back? Or you gonna troll here all the way?

You started trolling, not me
And this is quite good reason:

Yes    40 (83.3%)
No    8 (16.7%)

[vedaras]

i vote yes, for player tagging system to be more convenient no matter in which way it will be made, cause now it sucks as your tagged people on one account, are neutral on another.

[Cryofluid]

Actually, it seems to me that you are the one pvp-only-oriented, as you need colors to recognise people by gang. For me, it's more logical to remember some names of those "bloody bastards" than just downloading *.txt. But yeah, having all people colored (red-bastard gang, green-carebear gang, yellow-dunno) does need less thinking and lets you take a decision quickly, instead of thinking "Who the fuck was the guy XYZ and why his name is looking familiar". If you don't have any problems with your memory, you should be able to remember who's who if you had any interaction with that player before or if you have anyone that can tell you something about him. And if all that it takes for you to decide who's bad and who's not is some funny list coloring automatically people, then again, where is your non-PvP activity? Gone?

That is the point you don't understand.

I will try to explain it to you again:

1- In post-apo stories, there are gangs.

2- These gangs can be recognized at distance without having any discussions with them BECAUSE OF THEIR WEARS/HAIRSTYLES

3- In fonline, we haven't got the ability to put specific wears for specific gangs BUT thankfully we have colors.

Clear now?

[Izual]

3- In fonline, we haven't got the ability to put specific wears for specific gangs

Yet! 3D will bring more character customization.

And this is quite good reason:
<poll stuff>

Most people whined when rocket crafting was nerfed, yet now it happens to be a good thing. Quality of an idea can't be seen with some forum poll results. I can read, understand and argue with opposite side's arguments, but the ones about popularity are just meaningless.

[Doctor Eex]

Yet! 3D will bring more character customization.

Most people whined when rocket crafting was nerfed, yet now it happens to be a good thing. Quality of an idea can't be seen with some forum poll results. I can read, understand and argue with opposite side's arguments, but the ones about popularity are just meaningless.

I doubt there will be enough 3d details any soon to determine who is which gang.
However about reasons.
As far as i can see the only reason against - is "boo! metagaming!"

But everybody metaplays fonline with a little exception. Personally me don't have crafting alts or taxi alts ...
But still i have more then 10 chars. i like diversity.

Other then this, not having  NC is somebody's evil will. Not sure whose.

"Faction mod" without ability to identify factions... Yep, strange thing...

"Poll stuff" ignored because it indicates most of people desire which quite opposite to will of some developer (s)?
Nice move to lock the thread!
However any reasonable person admits that it's up to him - to play or not to play.
Now for me "it's not to play" . And yes, I know obvious thing -  developers are free to do whatever they want to their game.

[Izual]

As far as i can see the only reason against - is "boo! metagaming!"

Countless reasons against Namecolorizing were given - a lot of reasons for its return were also given, indeed.

If you want to see more arguments against the implementation of a tool that makes everyone the slave of a .txt file, and increases the gap between huge factions and loners/small gangs, I suggest you read my post in 3rd page, this one:

To me, the fight against Namecolorizing is above all a fight for realism and equality in this game.

With Namecolorizing, bigger factions are given an advantage towards the smaller ones. Each member of a faction adds his own encountered players to the list. This means if everyone adds two characters to Namecolorizing per day, a faction with 50 members will have +100 names in his Namecolorizing per day and a faction with 10 players, +20 names. This is how some big factions looked like the CIA last wipe, and some others like nothing. It is as unfair and unfalloutish as having a daily income because you controlled a city once and put all the caps in your bank.

We are playing a multiplayer Fallout game, guys, not World Domination Corporation. This game should not be about getting as many caps as possible and as many colored guys as possible. In this topic I heard both "It prevents us from sparing lives in TC because now we have to shoot everybody" and "The lack of Namecolorizing is not at all a problem for bigger factions". Well, you know what. I think it's better like that. You "need" to shoot everyone during Town Control operations? You're trying to control a town using guns and shiny armors, lads, so don't start worrying about your poor collateral victims. The bigger your alliance will be, the more you will try to seize control of something - the more you will kill innocent people. This is not a problem. This doesn't need to be fixed. The argument about "innocent victims" - which is not a new one - is an invalid argument. There is always a possibility to chose not to kill; if you chose to kill, then it is because your goal - most of the times, TC - is more important than killing few innocent wanderers. And obviously, it is. You're a gang trying to seize control of a town thanks to pure strength, so don't whine about needed violence to achieve this goal. If Town Control is such a slaughter, then I suggest you stop doing it - reading the posts above mine, it looks like you won't need Namecolorizing anymore.

Now that was about the irrelevance of some of the arguments I heard; I will now try to explain what bothers me the most with Namecolorizing system. One of these things is, as stated in the first paragraph, that not all factions are equal with it. It's another thing that gives bigger gangs advantages towards smaller gangs, that have no Intelligence Department. The second thing, and I don't think it is an arguable point, is that Namecolorizing is shareable. You start in the game, here's a list of who's who, who is good and evil. You add a guy in your Namecolorizing, hey, the whole team will now shoot him or not shoot him.
I believe in players interactions. I want to have tagged only the people I know. This is why the current system is fine, by the way - maybe more colors would be good, I don't see a problem with adding more: you can only tag people that you met. And in this game, people you met are almost all the time people that you talked with or fought with. Lordus, you said that it's annoying to have to repeat to your team-mates "Don't shoot X, don't shoot Y, don't shoot Z". Well, this is what happens in real fights, you know. I don't want to have someone tagged green that I never met. Maybe you do. I don't want to have friends I never heard of, nor enemies I never heard of. Namecolorizing is a team-to-team vision, current system is based on individual relationships. And I think it fits Fallout better, as well as enhancing game experience. What is the most interesting - to download a huge home-made list of who to shoot and who not to shoot, or to meet people, to talk with them, to interact with them, and only then to tag them?

Yes, I'm only talking about tagging red and green. "That's not true! Namecolorizing.txt provides a lot of different colors". Wrong. Even if you use a lot of colors (one for each team, for example), orange, blue, grey, white, purple, all these colors can be put in two categories: "To shoot" and "Not to shoot". Red and green. This is a nonsense to talk about mid-evil people or mid-good people in this game; if you want to have cautious attitude with someone, leave him untagged or make a third color for "To be cautious with" characters.

Another of the used arguments is something like this: "Namecolorizing allows us to recognize teams". Yes, sure it does, I can't deny it. There's only one problem: this list of faction members is available to you even if you never heard of the faction. Also, it is a subjective list, made by your friends. I am in favor of "teams recognition", like with some kind of uniform for each faction or with Jack_FR's logos-in-nicks idea. It is different from Namecolorizing for two reasons: first, it is fair because everyone has the same information. Second, it is an objective information. No red, no green: Player X is member of team Y. I don't see any problem with this kind of information if there is no way to personalize it - one color/flag/uniform chosen randomly for each faction, I think this is fair. Everyone sees faction Y with blue and yellow stripes, everyone sees faction Z with black and white flag, that was given to them by the server. But as far as I know, developers don't want this kind of instant-recognition. By then, I prefer current system - you make your own, un-shareable records. A personal and subjective list of the people you met - the very same character diary that can be found in any good role-playing game.

Namecolorizing.txt is indeed a difficult matter and its existence is an uneasy question.

[Hololasima]

So people, you which dont want old colorizing back, tell me.         Why not ?


Before we had good working system of recognization. You could use it, or also you didnt have to use it, choice was on you. But, it was deleted, because one or two people said "Its bad because reason 1,2,3". Noone cares that it was uselfull feature.


What we have now ? Bad working system of tagging, which sometimes not working when you try to tag someone. Everyone know that current system dont work well, even those which are against old colorizing. But these people who are against, didnt bring ANY better solution. So some people was for simplest solution, as bring OLD colorizing system back. But noooo, people which was against it before are against also now, and still dont bring any better solution. So in count we have: Shitty system of colorizing and taging people and if someone(90% which are interested) want it back, nothing happen.

Most people whined when rocket crafting was nerfed, yet now it happens to be a good thing. Quality of an idea can't be seen with some forum poll results. I can read, understand and argue with opposite side's arguments, but the ones about popularity are just meaningless.

Its not a same. Before rockets were nerfed, noone know what feedback will be. Of course there was feedback, as "omg what youve done ?" but after some time, noone care, its not problem to craft rockets.
But we HAD and use colorizing for one whole season. Then it was deleted, something changed. Feeback was big, noone understand why it was deleted because it was realy uselfull thing. After some time this feedback is still here(what a surprise), noone understand why it is disabled because its so uselfull thing. Its not a same



BTW, when colorizing will be in game, NOONE force you to use it. Best solution will be if you will keep current system of taging(red/green) and bring old colorizing back. Then NOONE will force you to be "slave of .txt" and youll be happy because you will be able to tag others in game without any out game activities.

BTW number 2, why you, people which dont want colorizing, force us to be without it ? You said something about recognization. Someone who is PK and killing people just for fun STILL will be PK which killing people just for fun. People which are not killing everyone on sight, will not killing everyone on sight with or without colorizing. Its just HELPFUL thing which is disabled.

[Kilgore]

1- In post-apo stories, there are gangs.

O really? Tell us more about it. When you've found your first gang?

2- These gangs can be recognized at distance without having any discussions with them BECAUSE OF THEIR WEARS/HAIRSTYLES
3- In fonline, we haven't got the ability to put specific wears for specific gangs BUT thankfully we have colors.
Clear now?

Your logic is failed, mister, because with Namecolorizing you can distinguish people who don't have to wear something different/have different hairstyle. Same like you would threw a red jacket at someone from *.txt list and somehow, that red jacket would be magically placed on him/her. You don't decide what clothes/hairstyle someone has put on - he decides. So, you just download a list and people "start wearing" some special clothes?

Again, interact more with players rather than just giving them a tag or a colour. Then, problems "who the fuck is that guy" or "dude why did I shoot you" or "why I called you an idiot, you are on wrong list" will be gone. At least if you can recognise nicknames and don't have to see any pictures/colors attached to them.

While playing FOnline, namecolorizing was useful for me only when in some pvp fight (pure example: hinkley), when you have to take decisions "friendly or foe" quickly or you'll just die. In every other situation than that (trading / chatting / event / meeting someone new somewhere / guarding a town) all that counts is his nickname, not a colour. And it doesn't matter if the guy was "very important dude in Redding" or some random dude, if I know him, then I know what I can expect. If I don't know him, then why the hell would I know who is he and what is he doing? (yes it seems so obvious but not for all followers of the namecolorizing) You want namecolorizing list to make thinking part for you.

Some people seem to be tied to silly lists all the time. Namecolorizing lists, PK lists, antiPK lists, outlaws lists, carebears lists, suspects lists, a god-damned-rat-on-a-stake lists...  What the fuck? Start playing game in game, not in notepad.

[Doctor Eex]

Namecolorizing.txt is indeed a difficult matter and its existence is an uneasy question.

and increases the gap between huge factions and loners/small gangs

Now it is a gap between people registered at 1 base and the rest fonline 2238 world.

Honestly since wipe I played as Doctor Eex. I met people, hunted together, traveled together.
Tagged them

But I bet I killed some of them with my EW|BG|Sniper char.

Because 1)don't remember all chars I ever met
2)in most cases you don't have time to remmber

2 Kilgore nice logic for those who will attack anyway.
Only PKers don't need NC, because only with NC PKing may have some consequences...