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[Crazy]

There is definitely something wrong on your math: since wipe, I have NEVER deal 100 damage on a BA with an avenger without crits (and I have BRD)
Also, an avenger which supposed to be highiest tier in this game, with highest cost for weapon and ammo, which deal less damage than LSW because no appropriate perk... Beuargh.

[Hololasima]

I have 2x BRD and 25 critic chance.

Critical Hit for 69 damage to BA from Avenger     and    Critical Hit for 145 damage to BA from LSW


As Crazy, i never had damage arroud 100 with Avenger.


There is something wrong with your math. Also you have "tested" it on paper and i have tested it in combat.

[Sir Hubert]

in this wipe avenger sux. We tested it with solar in our base 1 hour average with lsw in 10 hits was 88.9 dmg from avanger was 82 dmg

[Solar]

I think you're misremembering that

Avenger was averaging higher than the LSW, as it should, even in that test.

I've just finished testing them both vs Bob who had BA stats, set to not deteriorate. To quote the log:

BRDx2: ok, ill try 20 shots, discounting any crits
11:46:35 • Gorlak was hit for 40 hit points.
11:46:37 • Gorlak was hit for 84 hit points.
11:46:41 • Gorlak was hit for 67 hit points.
11:46:45 • Gorlak was hit for 58 hit points.
11:46:48 • Gorlak was hit for 94 hit points.
11:46:52 • Gorlak was hit for 96 hit points.
11:46:55 • Gorlak was hit for 93 hit points.
11:46:59 • Gorlak was hit for 88 hit points.
11:47:03 • Gorlak was hit for 76 hit points.
11:47:06 • Gorlak was hit for 98 hit points.
11:47:10 • Gorlak was hit for 61 hit points.
11:47:14 • Gorlak was hit for 85 hit points.
11:47:17 • Gorlak was hit for 96 hit points.
11:47:21 • Gorlak was hit for 64 hit points.
11:47:25 • Gorlak was hit for 54 hit points.
11:47:28 • Gorlak was hit for 94 hit points.
11:47:32 • Gorlak was hit for 74 hit points.
11:47:36 • Gorlak was hit for 92 hit points.
11:47:39 • Gorlak was hit for 93 hit points.
11:47:43 • Gorlak was hit for 94 hit points.
11:47:47 • BRDx2: ok, theres 20
11:47:50 • BRDx2: now LSW
11:47:55 • Gorlak: wait
11:47:55 • Gorlak was hit for 90 hit points.
11:47:59 • Gorlak was hit for 40 hit points.
11:48:01 • Gorlak was hit for 104 hit points.
11:48:05 • Gorlak: maniac
11:48:05 • Gorlak was hit for 85 hit points.
11:48:08 • Gorlak was hit for 73 hit points.
11:48:12 • Gorlak was hit for 60 hit points.
11:48:16 • Gorlak was hit for 72 hit points.
11:48:19 • Gorlak was hit for 80 hit points.
11:48:23 • Gorlak was hit for 72 hit points.
11:48:27 • Gorlak was hit for 78 hit points.
11:48:31 • Gorlak was hit for 93 hit points.
11:48:34 • Gorlak was hit for 84 hit points.
11:48:38 • Gorlak was hit for 80 hit points.
11:48:41 • Gorlak was hit for 89 hit points.
11:48:45 • Gorlak was hit for 82 hit points.
11:48:49 • Gorlak was hit for 92 hit points.
11:48:52 • Gorlak was hit for 23 hit points.
11:48:56 • Gorlak was hit for 93 hit points.
11:49:00 • Gorlak was hit for 25 hit points.
11:49:03 • Gorlak was hit for 75 hit points.
11:49:06 • BRDx2: ok, 20

To save you having to add them up - Avenger total of 20 shots 1601 (Average of 80) LSW total 1400 (Average of 70)

Meaning the avenger is doing an average of 15% more damage, even in this test. I would actually expect the avenger to pull even further ahead as the sample increased

[RavenousRat]

There is definitely something wrong on your math: since wipe, I have NEVER deal 100 damage on a BA with an avenger without crits (and I have BRD)
Also, an avenger which supposed to be highiest tier in this game, with highest cost for weapon and ammo, which deal less damage than LSW because no appropriate perk... Beuargh.

I have 2x BRD and 25 critic chance.

Critical Hit for 69 damage to BA from Avenger     and    Critical Hit for 145 damage to BA from LSW


As Crazy, i never had damage arroud 100 with Avenger.


There is something wrong with your math. Also you have "tested" it on paper and i have tested it in combat.

Well I don't know bullets from burst to hit %, so probably avenger deals less damage, because atleast 40th (14th in central hex) bullet will miss, if each bullet has penalty from 95%, not from your skill (for example you have 150% to hit, and every bullet will give penalty X% to 150%, so you'll have 95%, 95%, 95% etc for few fist bullets, then you need really high skill), if it gives penalty to 95%, then you need skill only to have 95% on the first bullet and then damage will be affected only by real life luck, because sometimes all 14 can hit, sometimes only half of them, sometimes only 1 or 2 bullets. While for LSW it's only 10 bullets, 10 much less than 40, so you have much more % that all bullets will hit, you need only 4 for central hex, so LSW requires less real life luck or... less BG skill, if each bullet gives penalty to it, not to 95%.
Probably you know better ToHit% for bursting weapon, and you know how much % removed from each next bullet in burst, then you can calculate it yourself.
All I can say with my math, that I think not all 14 bullets hits your target, try to test it in point blank, I think it's harder to miss all 40 bullets and all 10 bullets... may be, as I said I don't know from what to reduce % and how much.
For example every bullet gives -4% to hit from your skill or base ToHit% before setting it to 95%.
Then you need 4x40=160% skill only to have all bullets from avenger hit with 95%.
+95% for 95% for first bullet.
+4% per hex between you and target.
-8% for every PE higher than 2.
So with 7 PE, it's 5x8=40%.
For example at range of 10 it negates 7 PE bonus, because of 40-40=0.
so it's 160+95=255% BG skill to 0 AC target.
And if target has like 30 AC, it's 285% BG skill.
*Again it was an example, if each bullet reduces ToHit on 4%, it can be 2% or 5%, I don't know, also if it reduces from 95%, then you don't need to high skill, but you need your real life luck, so 2nd bullet will have 91%, 3rd 87%, etc. so you may hit only with first few bullets, again, depending on how much % each bullet reduces.

[Crazy]

Try calculating the DPS with 2*more crit instead of 2*BRD (crits counting)?
Also the only shot above 100 is from LSW.
And to finish, from my experience, when you deal low damage (+/- 40 for avenger, 20-40 for LSW) it's equal to a "miss" for big gun, These numbers shouldn't be counted, as you have only 5% chance to miss and is dependant of your real luck while making the test.
Conclusion: forget BRD and take crit perks + LSW.



PS; what i guess for burst: 1/6 of bullets try to hit your primary target (only one roll for this 1/6), 1/6 try to hit separately every target on the road. For avenger, it mean that there is 7 bullets which can hit or not separately dependant on you RL luck, while with LSW it's 2, so better chance to no miss any bullet.
Only guesses tough.

[Solar]

• BRDx2: ok
12:45:17 • BRDx2: got 25% crit rate
12:45:21 • BRDx2: no better crits
12:45:25 • BRDx2: lsw vs ba
12:45:32 • BRDx2: 20 shots
12:45:39 • Gorlak was hit for 66 hit points.
12:45:41 • Gorlak was hit for 74 hit points.
12:45:45 • Gorlak was hit for 14 hit points.
12:45:49 • Gorlak was hit for 84 hit points.
12:45:52 • Gorlak was hit for 83 hit points.
12:45:56 • Gorlak was critically hit for 114 hit points.
12:46:00 • Gorlak was hit for 72 hit points.
12:46:03 • Gorlak was hit for 78 hit points.
12:46:07 • Gorlak was hit for 14 hit points.
12:46:10 • Gorlak was hit for 30 hit points.
12:46:14 • Gorlak was hit for 62 hit points.
12:46:17 • Gorlak was hit for 73 hit points.
12:46:21 • Gorlak was hit for 77 hit points.
12:46:25 • Gorlak was critically hit for 117 hit points.
12:46:32 • Gorlak was hit for 69 hit points.
12:46:34 • Gorlak was critically hit for 114 hit points.
12:46:38 • Gorlak was hit for 32 hit points.
12:46:41 • Gorlak was critically hit for 126 hit points.
12:46:54 • Gorlak was hit for 58 hit points.
12:46:56 • Gorlak was hit for 66 hit points.

Total of 1423, average 71.15. 4 extra points in luck, 3 perks used instead of 2 ... + 1.15 damage per shot. As I say, BRD is better. Also, I'll repeat it again, Avenger is the best burst weapon.

Other interesting ones:
Plasma Rifle 75% crits gave an average of 84.19
M60 was 62.25
Minigun was 50.45 (This seems a little low and had a high proportion of low results - bigger sample should see this increase)
Super Sledge 44
Super Prod 35

(Remember none of the above have been adjusted for different AP requirements, so they arent really fair 1:1 comparisons - aprt from where AP requirements are the same)

[Crazy]

Well, definitely need better crit, what are these multiplicator? oO only *1.5?

[Solar]

Better crit will only marginally help a BG build and take up a 4th perk spot - where really only 2*BRD is needed. You're using the uncalled table, its not amazing (hense the small damage multipliers)

Quite funny that everyone I see says LSW is better than Avenger. Now we have empirical evidence to add to the theoretical evidence showing the contrary.

[Menthat]

What about new encounter "small bunker hidden in wastelands...", we found one. Interesting, what chance to find it again? And what about perks "Explorer" and "Ranger"?

[Hayabusa]

As Crazy, i never had damage arroud 100 with Avenger.

same

Very often you must burst 4 times to kill 1 sniper guy, and in fight it looks like you must go like rambo this 15-20 hexes (and hope for no knock outs, critical hits hits over 100 and insta kills) and start shooting.. sometimes for 50 sometimes sometimes for 70 (shooting from max range). I would say bigguns are only good from 1 hex ;] (~ 200 dmg ).

Whats funny without 2x BRD perk, big guns (mostly avengers and miniguns) would be like toys ;] Make a big guns more useful, cause they are most expensive than other weapons but in my opinion not worth it ;] Its needed to craft like 400-500 5mm AP ammo for 1 fight when mfc is available from many encounters (when 5mm AP ammo only from BoS patrol and enclava ). Anyway plazma rifle needs 2-3 mfc  to kill 1 guy ;] I think you made this unbalanced ;]

[Surf]

What about new encounter "small bunker hidden in wastelands...", we found one. Interesting, what chance to find it again? And what about perks "Explorer" and "Ranger"?

The chance to find it is completely random. No perk nor stat does influence the chance.

[Bulldog]

same

Very often you must burst 4 times to kill 1 sniper guy, and in fight it looks like you must go like rambo this 15-20 hexes (and hope for no knock outs, critical hits hits over 100 and insta kills) and start shooting.. sometimes for 50 sometimes sometimes for 70 (shooting from max range). I would say bigguns are only good from 1 hex ;] (~ 200 dmg ).

Whats funny without 2x BRD perk, big guns (mostly avengers and miniguns) would be like toys ;] Make a big guns more useful, cause they are most expensive than other weapons but in my opinion not worth it ;] Its needed to craft like 400-500 5mm AP ammo for 1 fight when mfc is available from many encounters (when 5mm AP ammo only from BoS patrol and enclava ). Anyway plazma rifle needs 2-3 mfc  to kill 1 guy ;] I think you made this unbalanced ;]

The hell, why do you make BG builds that need 15-20 hexes to be efficient? I play BG right now and they are good enough if built right.

[Michaelh139]

The hell, why do you make BG builds that need 15-20 hexes to be efficient? I play BG right now and they are good enough if built right.

Basicaly this wipe you gotta make de Tank and 1hex burst all the time, instead of erratic crazy stupid ass run and gun build hitting 2047234707098 at 40 hex....

[Hayabusa]

And here is average hit from plasma rifle

The hell, why do you make BG builds that need 15-20 hexes to be efficient? I play BG right now and they are good enough if built right.

then write me you great bg build with at least 9 PE and (if i understand well its needed over 220 bg skill to all bullets shoot the target from max range). Its not sniper dude ;]