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[Sephiroth-sama]

Exactly. Getting 21st level must be something really really hard. Because if you got max. of something, that means you ended this game, so everyone start to create alts, so they'll have alot 21st lvled alts. If you want to get 21st level, you must focus on your the only character and (when it'll be in non-beta stage) get your 21st level not in month, or even faster, you must get it in like a year or something. Because you must always have something to achieve, getting 21st level = you don't have anything to achieve.

Lol, that's the dumbest thing I ever heard from you.

So the game is all about leveling? Of course not. Leveling plays little part on every fun game. Offline games are for the story, but online games shouldn't be about leveling. There must be late-game content that you can only do exactly when you're level capped, so you just get max level to do those things (I could use as an example here TC, Gangs and Factions, since there are not instanced dungeons or something, and quests are mostly for leveling or getting titles).

[Wichura]

so play like you want and stop pissing me off by trying to show us YOUR way!

Funny, exactly the same thing I could say to all these "OMFG i cant play meh game cuz im too lazy/lame/stupid/it's much harder to achieve 21 hax0r lvl in one day DO SOMETHGIN !!!111oneone". Actually it is not funny, it is terrifying - how experienced and game-educated people can behave when they can loose with bunch of no-lifers. Guess what - you will always loose with no-lifer, because he spends much more time playing than regular player having work, school, family and so on. I know exactly what I'm talking about, my char is on 7th level since Tuesday, because I had to work and earn real money instead of playing some computer game and earning virtual caps.

I don't know if any of "so much waiting" guys tried to dig something without using bot - it is really much more faster now. And yeah, you have to risk to get better materials and stuff, and you can't left bot with brahmin at Gecko's mine. Same rules for everyone - what is wrong with that?

This wipe brought some major changes and suddenly there is 500-600 players at rush hours, before there was 300-400. All these are alts/bots?

"My PvP char has 1 CH and he can't do quests" - so what? It was your choice to make supah-powah-snipah with awesome combat skill, but ugly as ghoul and completely retarded while wandering through Wastes (who the hell needs Outdoorsman anyway?). Charisma doesn't mean shit in Fallout? Try to play 1 CH char in F1/F2 and share this amazing experience. My char has 1 LK, he is constantly falling on the ground in combat because of this - but no-one ordered me to do this char, moreover some friends told me I'm making a big mistake.

I'm not sure if dividing players for "northern-pvp only" and "southern-ncr bin only" is properly. I know some, you could say, "northern butchers" who had a lot of serious fun from RP-like noobish stuff, and also some "ncr-bin lovers" who shoots before asking questions. It is not black and white as you want to see it.

[Sius]

Exactly. Getting 21st level must be something really really hard. Because if you got max. of something, that means you ended this game, so everyone start to create alts, so they'll have alot 21st lvled alts. If you want to get 21st level, you must focus on your the only character and (when it'll be in non-beta stage) get your 21st level not in month, or even faster, you must get it in like a year or something. Because you must always have something to achieve, getting 21st level = you don't have anything to achieve.

1st of all mmo has no ending. Its about endgame activities and leveling up should be just a small part of a fun that awaits at the max lvl. But FOnline is beta and as such it lacks content on both leveling and endgame part of the game. I agree that leveling should be slow and step by step but not when there is nothing to do while you level up. You all think that we are whiners but you see it just from your point of the view and you refuse to imagine yourselves in our position. When I suggest something then I always try to be as much objective as I can but you are not even trying to do that.
Two main sources of exp are absolutely not accessible for PvP chars. You see they can't craft and they can't do quests because somewhere at season 2 when floater/centaur killing was like rocket lvling someone suggested that quest should be CH based so powerbuild would have disadvantage. Back then it was not a real deal since there were like 5 quests and you didn't get much reward from them. But now they matter and we are completely cut from them. Its like we would not allow crafters to use guns until they take weapon handling perk or better criticals. Absolute nonsense that only limit game content for certain group of players. So we are left with hunting NPCs and killing them over and over again until we reach max lvl. Thats long and boring run and I'm asking WHY ON EARTH do we have to spend so much time ingame repeating boring stuff when we could be doing something we enjoy without spending 24/7 ingame just to reach it?
Its beta and there is missing content so why do you make gap between players and content (competitive PvP and TC) bigger with every patch and you don't fill up empty space with anything else we could do while we level up. Thats what changed significantly about FOnline and thats what making current season the most boring season I played. Before you just registered your char, stayed ingame for 1/2 hours a day and you could enjoy gang wars in one week. Now its more like you get ingame, you work for 5 hours just to have enough bullets to level up next 4 levels and then you go hunting some stalkers or something with few people. Its not whining, its simple statement that you made this game boring for many people and you did not provide anything how to enjoy that enormous time we have to spend ingame to reach our goals and finally get some fun out of the game. Thats what this is about!  

"My PvP char has 1 CH and he can't do quests" - so what? It was your choice to make supah-powah-snipah with awesome combat skill, but ugly as ghoul and completely retarded while wandering through Wastes (who the hell needs Outdoorsman anyway?). Charisma doesn't mean shit in Fallout? Try to play 1 CH char in F1/F2 and share this amazing experience. My char has 1 LK, he is constantly falling on the ground in combat because of this - but no-one ordered me to do this char, moreover some friends told me I'm making a big mistake.

And here you are completely wrong my friend. If we spend some points in charisma we get weakened by it. We have to reduce that weakening with drugs or just settle with that we will have simply average and no longer PvP build. But here is the problem: some guys don't care about it and they still make 1ch char and thanks to that they will own our asses. So as answer to their build we have to create new chars and fight their way so we can compete with them. Thats simple and natural escalation that should never be discriminated. Take example from almost every other mmo that exists out there. If you want to PvP they you will play the game differently than PvE guy but you can't just say because you are different and you enjoy something else you will have to suffer or change your preferences and start as "average" guy. Game should support both PvE and PvP in its own way and players should be allowed to do what they enjoy and not forced to work to get their entertainment.

[Wichura]

Its not whining, its simple statement that you made this game boring for many people and you did not provide anything how to enjoy that enormous time we have to spend ingame to reach our goals and finally get some fun out of the game. Thats what this is about! 

I don't get it - you cannot make PvP below 21 level? Why?

[RavenousRat]

I don't get it - you cannot make PvP below 21 level? Why?

Because his character build is "accounted" (poor english, sorry) on 21st level. ;p
And he saying something about "leveling isn't the main in mmorpgs", or it's not him?

[Sephiroth-sama]

1st of all mmo has no ending. Its about endgame activities and leveling up should be just a small part of a fun that awaits at the max lvl. But FOnline is beta and as such it lacks content on both leveling and endgame part of the game. I agree that leveling should be slow and step by step but not when there is nothing to do while you level up. You all think that we are whiners but you see it just from your point of the view and you refuse to imagine yourselves in our position. When I suggest something then I always try to be as much objective as I can but you are not even trying to do that.
Two main sources of exp are absolutely not accessible for PvP chars. You see they can't craft and they can't do quests because somewhere at season 2 when floater/centaur killing was like rocket lvling someone suggested that quest should be CH based so powerbuild would have disadvantage. Back then it was not a real deal since there were like 5 quests and you didn't get much reward from them. But now they matter and we are completely cut from them. Its like we would not allow crafters to use guns until they take weapon handling perk or better criticals. Absolute nonsense that only limit game content for certain group of players. So we are left with hunting NPCs and killing them over and over again until we reach max lvl. Thats long and boring run and I'm asking WHY ON EARTH do we have to spend so much time ingame repeating boring stuff when we could be doing something we enjoy without spending 24/7 ingame just to reach it?
Its beta and there is missing content so why do you make gap between players and content (competitive PvP and TC) bigger with every patch and you don't fill up empty space with anything else we could do while we level up. Thats what changed significantly about FOnline and thats what making current season the most boring season I played. Before you just registered your char, stayed ingame for 1/2 hours a day and you could enjoy gang wars in one week. Now its more like you get ingame, you work for 5 hours just to have enough bullets to level up next 4 levels and then you go hunting some stalkers or something with few people. Its not whining, its simple statement that you made this game boring for many people and you did not provide anything how to enjoy that enormous time we have to spend ingame to reach our goals and finally get some fun out of the game. Thats what this is about!  

You're not wrong, although not right. If this CH restriction didn't exist, CH would just have no meaning. Your character is the same thing apparently, CH isn't even an attribute in MMOs, but since this is a Fallout mod then it were already there and mods decided to put it into use, then it MUST have some use. What would be the point of having a completely useless atribute? If they take this restriction off, they should just take the atribute completely, which I disagree.
CH 3 isn't so bad anyway. Yeah, 2 points are important, but they won't be groundbreaking in any build.


@RavenousRat

That be me. I said that leveling plays little part on MMOs.

[Sius]

I don't get it - you cannot make PvP below 21 level? Why?

Maybe because builds are pretty much useless until certain level is reached? Also you don't stand a chance against higher lvl guys. So only at 21 lvl chances are the same and the real competitive PvP can begin. Sure there are even low level skirmishes but they can never be as fun as real high lvl battle.

You're not wrong, although not right. If this CH restriction didn't exist, CH would just have no meaning. Your character is the same thing apparently, CH isn't even an attribute in MMOs, but since this is a Fallout mod then it were already there and mods decided to put it into use, then it MUST have some use. What would be the point of having a completely useless atribute? If they take this restriction off, they should just take the atribute completely, which I disagree.
CH 3 isn't so bad anyway. Yeah, 2 points are important, but they won't be groundbreaking in any build.

I've always thought its better to gain bonuses for being better than restrict and limit for being worse.

[Sephiroth-sama]

Maybe because builds are pretty much useless until certain level is reached? Also you don't stand a chance against higher lvl guys. So only at 21 lvl chances are the same and the real competitive PvP can begin. Sure there are even low level skirmishes but they can never be as fun as real high lvl battle.

I've always thought its better to gain bonuses for being better than restrict and limit for being worse.

Those bonuses are impossible.
Not for fallout, on fallout they are good enough, but for a MMO they are impossible. What would you get? More quests? More NPCs? Few care for NPCs anyway. The most thing you could care is some brahmins or so, but you're always better on your own. Discounts don't count.

What I mean is that there are possible bonuses, but they would be little bonuses if compared on what those points could do. Plus, if you're using CH 1, you're COMPLETELY disregarding this atribute, it's just unfair you can do anything that anyone with little charisma can. CH 1 is the extreme.

[Wichura]

Maybe because builds are pretty much useless until certain level is reached? Also you don't stand a chance against higher lvl guys.

I always thought that advantage in battle depends on skill, scouting and knowledge about your enemy, not HP. Oh stupid me.

[Sephiroth-sama]

I always thought that advantage in battle depends on skill, scouting and knowledge about your enemy, not HP. Oh stupid me.

Still, level do play a big part.

[Sius]

Those bonuses are impossible.
Not for fallout, on fallout they are good enough, but for a MMO they are impossible. What would you get? More quests? More NPCs? Few care for NPCs anyway. The most thing you could care is some brahmins or so, but you're always better on your own. Discounts don't count.

What I mean is that there are possible bonuses, but they would be little bonuses if compared on what those points could do. Plus, if you're using CH 1, you're COMPLETELY disregarding this atribute, it's just unfair you can do anything that anyone with little charisma can. CH 1 is the extreme.

And what about other attributes? 2 ST is common thing and its is also extreme. Low EN, LK, AG at crafter builds is the same thing. They should shape your character but not limit his access to game content and especially not when it comes to such critical stuff like quests.

I always thought that advantage in battle depends on skill, scouting and knowledge about your enemy, not HP. Oh stupid me.

You can have all the intelligence about enemy you want but this is not Sparta. We don't yell "Hooray!" and run at our enemies hoping that surprise element will do the trick. Its the same lack of content when it comes to PvE or PvP. And right now its pretty much just about your char, tactics and number of players and even 10 hp can help you to stay alive just a little longer to be able to use that superstimp.

[Sius]

Anyway my initial questions still apply:  How do you enjoy playing FOnline? What are you doing ingame? Are you rather PvP or PvE person? Would you like FOnline to change or are you satisfied with current way of development? And the most important how would FOnline look like if you were the boos?

So for me I just love competing with others and I love developing my avatar (which is now pretty too much single player like right now). Since its beta and a lot of stuff is missing or is broken and useless I just collect stuff for my main to prepare him for leveling and finally join some real PvP since from my point of view PvP is only entertaining endgame activity right now. So when it comes to enjoying FOnline then this season is for me pretty boring compared to s1/2 (i did not played during s3). I would love that devs would change their way of seeing FOnline and look at it bit more like its completely new mmo rather than Fallout offspring which has to strictly follow its mechanics/structure.

[Heckler Spray]

Dear Sius,
I'll try to explain you my point of view.
First of all, me and my mates are playing since the beginning of this open beta, in august '09. We used to be some nasty player killers (the Hawks) during the 1st session. For the 2d session, we decided to change our way of playing and we became the Orphans, the guys who led the Den for months. We were traders, moslty, but we tried to defend our town with our allies, the Regulators and the Repo Men. For the 3d session, We realised that BBS were the main threat of the server, so we joined the North Alliance, with Cajuns, Red Dot, VSB... You know the story. So we've been forced to become PvP players. Honestly, it wasn't the best part of my game experience, sometimes fun, sometimes really boring (too long to explain why).
 For this session, we want to change again, cause most of us don't want to play like we did during the last session, we all like to do various things (barter, PvE, PvP, Role Playing [yeah, it still exists !!!]...). And we think the new features brought many new possibilities to enjoy the game.
In my opinion, Fallout, the game we all like,  is not a shoot game, it's more a Role Playing game in the first place. For now, FOnline is not a MMORPG nor a CSS-like. But the last features tend to create more "interactions" between players (mines, trains,...), and it's what I like in this game. My goal is not to rule the Wasteland, it's just to have fun with my friends.
Guys, this game is in beta version, there will be a lot more contents, a lot of things to do, you just have to be patient... I know it's hard for PvP Players, cause they only have fun in fighting each others, and I will not try to convince them to change, but, come on, this game will never be PvP only, you have to accept the "rules" and deal with PvE/Role Players. I'm pretty sure it's not that complicated.
For the record, I really don't care about the restrictions (cooldowns, Xp...), it's part of game, maybe some of them have to be balanced, but it's ok.
In my opinion, the game needs a sort of "main goal", a reason for the factions to fight each other. Town Control is not enough. But it's an other story...

[Kilgore]

Cool story, bro, anyway I don't really know what's your point. Saying " this game is in beta version, there will be a lot more contents, a lot of things to do, you just have to be patient" is ridiculous, since we are not angry because of lack of features, but the constant NERFING (devs call it BALANCING) of everything your worst enemies - PvP players of 2238, those bad guys without brain  but with 21 lvl chars - like doing in this game. It seems that you want to erase everything you don't like from the game - like it was with thieves, bombers and others. Due to your constant whining about 12yo old kids with miniguns and rocket launchers, this game is slowly becoming flat, it's becoming some sort of a big mine/factory, nothing else.

So, I don't want you to stop roleplaying, doing PvE (in fact, I want it to be more interesting because I do it from time to time), trading, but you - players who don't like PvP - just can't stop attempts to make PvP less interesting and more frustrating. It's kinda pathetic and I don't know when you are gonna realise it. If you can't/don't like PvPing, you just should try to not do it - it's your choice, after all. Remember that it's not hello-kitty but fallout, full of raiders, killers, thugs and thieves (well, maybe no thieves, due to previous "balancing").

[Hololasima]

Exactly