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[JovankaB]

There are two ways to help the people with less time:
Either you have infinite time to prepare like now.
Or the ceiling of preparing is lower, meaning that high end stuff like gatlings, avengers, hard drugs, best armors and so on are deleted. So that you basically have a pvp set after killing a single unity patrol.

Loners will be loners. I think it's completely plausible that in 2238 world there are self-sufficient individuals. It doesn't matter that they farm alone because they will add to the game in their own way. But they can't do that if they can't get the stuff in first place.

The 2nd session lasted less than 3 months and the loners were just fine and I don't
remember anyone complaining that they can't farm hundreds of armors and don't
have 30 bases and 15 cars. Don't remember anyone complaining about wipe either.
Next 2 sessions were pretty short too.

You feel insecure about it, because you look at the game from present perspective,
where you have dozens of alts, 20+ bases, thousands of items, dozens of cars...
there is no reason to consider it "normal" or good that you have thousands of items
that you will most likely never use this session. If you just want to fight, fight, fight
not to think about anything else, there is Hinkly.

I see nothing wrong with it, if you would have to balance producing/farming and
fighting. It could be part of the game, especially that only the gangs who want
to win the session would have to think about it, nothing would change for anyone
else. It's not like loners have some winning condition now.

The biggest thing that would require tweaking IMO would be how easily BPs can be
found and maybe speed of regeneration of resources in mines. And perhaps the
gunrunners workbench should be removed or somehow made less secure (e.g. you
could have to go through unsecured area to get there).

[gr1m-]

Gr1m you won't convince yourself that you aren't yourself. I mean what the fuck? I remember you defending this opinion, precisely the same, with precisely the emphasis on certain words. Don't tell me it's a coincidence and your some new player or something, recently registered and talking like having played this whole session and even more. I can't discuss something with someone knowing he might be talking with me through multiple forum accounts, it's fucking retarded. I can't pretend I don't know.

Maybe because they keep blocking everytime I write one posts, its back to one account for one post becuase my fat man account got banned.

Look I understand soldiers of thunderstorm play good becuase you do everything together, you go everywhere with your friends and this has work well for you, you give advice how to prevent such things. If people work together and not screw eachother over they would have more gear than if they raped a base I get that. You guys are good becuase of this, but as somebody who didn't really play with a huge long time faction last session, who wasn't in any huge faction such as yours I had a hard time trying to find people to play with that wouldn't dick me over and people quit leave go seperate ways quit the game etc, and it has left me doing everything solo.

But most likely if the game goes in jovankas suggestion of 3 month wipes with highly competitive stat bored maybe the hawks might try working together like SoT then that would work I would do that with them But for most part when you start losing numbers try to recruit make alliances etc and sometimes you get the griefer kid who wants to steal stuff for lolz.

I agreed with your post what are you attacking me for? I think its the stupidest thing ever when a person goes lolz didn't read becuase its the size of page in a book. I mean my god I've read 1,000 page books for school and people are going to be stupid say oh its to long didn't read but... whatever

 I am getting a headache from the constant attacks and trolling. You wrote a wall of text people made stupid trollish comments, and I suggest writing paragraphs.

I liked jovankas idea, I am not out to troll and say mean things about everything a developer suggests... Some things just aggreviate me and I say harsh things, I get trolled get into a flame war then get banned its the same stupid thing over and over.

[T-888]

I hope you don't get banned automatically or something, I wouldn't want to talk to you on another forum account. Learn some moderation and don't get banned.

I think 3 month wipes and random changes here and there could work if the farming was easily done for everything. Like you farm drugs, caps and stuff by farming NPCs not tedius crafting and spending 5 months trying to find random blue prints to get that one that is truly needed.

If the logistics for FR based PvP would vanish ... that is the main problem of why so much grind is attached to this session. Other than that, I think it's easier than previous session, noting that blueprints were never meant to be gained like this. They were meant to be attached for quests, so generally most of them would be relatively easy to obtain, not sure whether developers still up to pursue this, now that they are attached to two dungeons.

A fast paced stat game on which gang does the best is a pretty good idea for those who are interested in the competition. But the thing that will always set this back and why people go solo like myself and AVV is because of base rapes. All it takes is 1 little new recruit who you think is some friendly guy to steal it all set you back another week, really I think this encourages more griefing and trolling, and gangs sabotage trolling eachother would make people quit not bring back players.

"normal" or good that you have thousands of items
that you will most likely never use this session

We've been talking about this before, find at least few guys who can trust each other and it is going to dramatically decrease the grind attached to the game. I've noticed from screens of individual players, that they usually have some sort of item surplus, it's more effectively used by a group of players, unless someone is too greedy and can't share.

This is of course only my opinion, though if I presume your absolutely right for a moment, what do you propose? Making stuff easy to obtain, so players have easier time of recovering from base rapes or easier time of not interacting with other players? Is there there a third option? Most likely not.

Remember this is a game of mixture of PvP and PvE players, so there needs to be rewards that fit the needs of both not just PvP or just PvE.

The main idea and focus is on player factions, the game once presumed a faction mod and factions consisting of players witch do player oriented activities, where the hell do you get vs environment? Sure it's part of the game, but it doesn't support the competitive side, witch is main point of all this, unless I understood it wrong?

[gr1m02]

I hope you don't get banned automatically or something, I wouldn't want to talk to you on another forum account. Learn some moderation and don't get banned.

The main idea and focus is on player factions, the game once presumed a faction mod and factions consisting of players witch do player oriented activities, where the hell do you get vs environment? Sure it's part of the game, but it doesn't support the competitive side, witch is main point of all this, unless I understood it wrong?

Yes this is getting really stupid I know, I cant even reply on PMs when they do this. This is the type of stupid shit I put up with all day long from these people.

Well some people aren't not big power gaming pvp apes like us, they play this game to meet in NCR go on hunts try to farm things on their own, play for crafting. Some people do not like PvP and just enjoy hunting unity or raiders for example and this is all they do. And why I suggest maybe some goofy stat awards like best base decoration and which faction base has the most caps would also appeal to these players. If you want to fix the drop numbers and keep interesting in the game you have to appeal to differnt play styles.

[T-888]

Not sure how a script would be able to determine esthetic values of some in game items orderly placed, it would be like telling a toaster to toast well looking bread with proper judgement.

The richest gang, I suppose it could be checked upon how much caps/resources distributed to the controlling faction through TC locker. Though as goofy, interesting it may sound for certain players, seems like a secondary thing witch can be expected to be of delayed implementation or ignored. There could be a statistic for the longest time of controlling faction for each city, but that would ultimately mean the faction witch has been in the most control, will have the most resources obtained. Having a separate statistic for that, is truly secondary.

[avv]

Look, there are players who don't add to the game at all, even with the infinitive time granted, they have the stuff, but there is no motivation to use it. There are the part of players, that have bases full of stuff, but yet they run around naked and troll other players, despite they had a year to farm that stuff. They aren't interested in blunt fighting, the activity by itself is boring for some, but if something more than that would be tied to it, in theory it could interest more players.

Trolling is still interacting and its cause is that death has no punishment.
Besides such people probably won't fit in any faction or are looking for something else than pvp only and won't participate no matter what as long as competing with other players is the requirement.

So, basically you want to make stuff easier to obtain, reasonable to achieve the necessary amount. Hey, it's already being done, for example, current change of armor system allows players to farm them instead of craft that requires blueprints and resources. If you'd count out the problems that FR provides, the game has been significantly eased since the Wipe, if you don't agree we could talk about that more. Besides, once you kill one unity patrol encounter, you get most of the set of needed equipment to fight, mediocre armor, weapon, ammunition and the rest you need is drugs witch can be obtained, traded by the extra items you gain from the encounter.

Too much work still. I'm dealing with new recruits in our faction and biggest issue they have is the amount of farming needed. It always goes like this:
Recruit: "Hey I leveled this, am I ready now?"
Me: "No, you need to level this, this, this and this and farm this and this"
After that we don't hear from him again or see him idling in ncr.

Increasing item availability decreases the value of the particular equipment eased to obtain. There has to be a line, otherwise we will find ourselves like in Fallout online tactics, I'm not aware if you played it for the short time it was active, but there was a valuable lesson to be learned. So, the deal was that you get free items from a terminal, the only restriction was that there was a fixed amount of time, no resources needed, no logistics, nothing. The only limit was a ticking clock, the effort to gain the equipment was so low, that players ran around with the equipment just as casually as they would do naked on 2238. The gear had so minimal worth, that players didn't even bother to pick it up after fighting, large part of the game just vanished away.

Doesn't have to be so extreme. Current situation could be helped in rather easy ways like I mentioned about the top tier items. Loot is always worth looting if you'd have to work for it otherwise.

Point is, when stuff is made easier to obtain, you have to be damn careful about it.

But if there are those achievements everyone is after, why is stuff so big deal? You can unlock those achievements only by dominating the wasteland with brute force which means victories in pvp.

The 2nd session lasted less than 3 months and the loners were just fine and I don't
remember anyone complaining that they can't farm hundreds of armors and don't
have 30 bases and 15 cars. Don't remember anyone complaining about wipe either.
Next 2 sessions were pretty short too.

That's because they didn't know how to play. There wasn't for example fonline character planner made by Opera that is incredibly helpful when designing builds.

You feel insecure about it, because you look at the game from present perspective

But big gangs and hardest turbofarmers will have those bases, items, cars, everything while those who farm slower, won't have.

If you just want to fight, fight, fight
not to think about anything else, there is Hinkly.

The game offers rather limited ways when it comes to convincing other players to peace. Asking nicely doesn't work because many players just want to act violent for the sake of it. 

The biggest thing that would require tweaking IMO would be how easily BPs can be
found and maybe speed of regeneration of resources in mines. And perhaps the
gunrunners workbench should be removed or somehow made less secure (e.g. you
could have to go through unsecured area to get there).

Not to mention the fact that best ways to do everything revolves around mutilogs, dual logs and one-task-alts.

[Tomowolf]

I don't want to interrupt in this great discussion, but lemme throw my 2 grosze:
As a loner i've learned playing by several sessions, so now it isn't any problem to farm/get anything in game - only problem is that you won't do tc alone, rest is good afaik loners should at least gather up in groups of 2 - 5 then they can play like small gangs, because all of them got skills to life by "themselves" so they farm fast, exp alts etc.
It is just easy for loners, and do not say that no - I've got 12 about leveled up alts, about 5 bases filled with farmed/crafted stuff, and some money (even If I didn't play for some time I go inside the game and check how is it, and it isn't changing really much in loner gameplay style).
I can only agree in several things both with avv and T-888, game features doesn't need to be changed each time they suck, but just upgrade them enough - easy, less work.

[Giftless]

Goals for TC sounds cool and all, but three month wipes on top of the grinding and "the wasteland is harsh" seems like a formula for reducing your playerbase to a handful of demo testers. Whether it's understood or not... bases, cars, and the ability to craft higher level gear are some of the ways an individual FOnline player can have a sense of accomplishment. It's the infrastructure that makes the game enjoyable and allows players to explore the world more easily.

[Giftless]

The biggest thing that would require tweaking IMO would be how easily BPs can be
found and maybe speed of regeneration of resources in mines. And perhaps the
gunrunners workbench should be removed or somehow made less secure (e.g. you
could have to go through unsecured area to get there).

But the products of the advanced workbench are already less secure whenever you get killed in combat and lose them. The only thing that insecure workbenches encourage are the camping of bottleneck chokepoints and the control of advanced crafting by large factions only.

It takes an infrastructure to do advanced crafting as it stands, whether the bench is safe or not safe. Already raw materials are won hard and lost easily. So all increasing the difficulty does at this point is give players a good reason not to play the game.

[Sarakin]

I believe every tc player knows which team dominates the wasteland.

You mean VSB ? If not, prove me wrong. There are no global statistics that say, who is the best, just general feeling which can be deceiving (and biased).

[gr1m aka warhead]

Not sure how a script would be able to determine esthetic values of some in game items orderly placed, it would be like telling a toaster to toast well looking bread with proper judgement.

Probably damn near impossible and too complicated was thinking of something like a manual imput and voted upon or have a group of judges. Then the GM adds the winner to the scoreboard or stat board whatever.

Just ideas off the top of my head, but just something unrelated to just town control would be a nice touch to this idea. Maybe something like most brahmins, or most fire gecko pelts make use of something totally useless while having stupid goofy competitive fun.

[T-888]

Trolling is still interacting and its cause is that death has no punishment.
Besides such people probably won't fit in any faction or are looking for something else than pvp only and won't participate no matter what as long as competing with other players is the requirement.

True, trolling or similar activities is an casual style of play. Nothing wrong with that as long as it stays in reasonable measures. Penalty of death shouldn't be linear, that was discussed on one of the update topics.

Invalid argument, it's wrong to presume that all of the players dislike competing, or dislike competing for the same reasons. Of course there is the part of players who really doesn't like to compete at all, but I think it is a very small percent. There is a difference, currently a lot of players aren't fit for any faction, because of what is tied to competitive style of play, not much and much at the same time. Looking at what logistics are necessary, alt amount, we all know the issues witch are necessary to work out for the greater good, so more players can enjoy competing without unreasonable amount of time consumption, grind respectively.

Point still stays, if there would be something more tied to TC, more players would be interested in participating in such activities.

Too much work still. I'm dealing with new recruits in our faction and biggest issue they have is the amount of farming needed. It always goes like this:
Recruit: "Hey I leveled this, am I ready now?"
Me: "No, you need to level this, this, this and this and farm this and this"
After that we don't hear from him again or see him idling in ncr.

Well ...

If you present all that to a new player like I think you do, no wonder why they don't see any point or goal for that. I hope you don't encourage them to start off with multiple combat alts just to participate somewhere. That is besides the point actually.

Point is, if you really are right and farming would be the major problem, the accessibility of equipment for common player in the 3 month period to enjoy the game properly, it would a matter of evaluating the problems and applying appropriate solutions to the shortened Wipe period. In other words testing. Much of what we talk is very plausible, it would be better if we see it in practice.

I'd say, will see.

Doesn't have to be so extreme. Current situation could be helped in rather easy ways like I mentioned about the top tier items. Loot is always worth looting if you'd have to work for it otherwise.

Sure, anything is welcomed for the common player to enjoy the game better, as long as the changes are in reasonable scales.
 

But if there are those achievements everyone is after, why is stuff so big deal? You can unlock those achievements only by dominating the wasteland with brute force which means victories in pvp.

Don't simplify things to just - victories. It's not only about victories, look at what is behind them, it's a struggle about resources, diplomacy, experience, organization, the ability to adapt and work together to achieve goals efficiently in hazardous environment, smart way of saying it's cool to dominate the harsh wasteland. The whole process is interesting. Something like that never gets old, if there is proper motivation for that and the initial suggestion is just an extra fuel for it. Statistics would allow factions to look at their own success, ranking in any game is fun and extra motivation to do better, an exact date of time to try again upon loss is even better for that. Something like that is common in other popular games.

That's because they didn't know how to play. There wasn't for example fonline character planner made by Opera that is incredibly helpful when designing builds.

Bad example. Look, after first few months of playing, I was making builds purely from memory and I didn't know shit about planner, everything happened through wiki, the character creation process is very simple once you get to know it. Character planner is just comfort, but that doesn't ultimately mean that players without it would be bad or something. Of course players back then were more inexperienced, but doesn't mean the game was suddenly a lot easier for them, quite the opposite.

But big gangs and hardest turbofarmers will have those bases, items, cars, everything while those who farm slower, won't have.

They will, just not as fast as others. It's all part of the wasteland domination theme. That is why some precautions of decreased resources for the strongest/fastest factions at start of Wipe can come in and decreased statistical advantage, so other players have better chance to catch up.

Turbofarmers will be turbofarmers, can't make features so guy doesn't sit near PC 24/7.

advanced workbench

I personally really like that I have to organize some protection to go craft some large amounts of something and it is always exciting to meet players at that moment(though that rarely ever happens). I'm from a large faction and we don't control any workbench, I'm sorry.

Though your right about infrastructure, that is required to do crafting without much hassle, for any new player/common player that is a lot more complicated, forcing him to not only travel around the wasteland to obtain the resources, characters, professions, blueprints and only then allowing to use the advanced workbenches and even then at the cost of risk. It is a bit overkill, to be honest. For what I care, the advanced workbenches might be in safe places too, not tied to some reputation restrictions and some unnecessary bullshit.

... group of judges. Then the GM adds the winner to the scoreboard or stat board whatever.

I'm like more than sure that something like that is not going to happen.

[gr1m baby]

I'm like more than sure that something like that is not going to happen.

Would be stupid and pointless to think they would just idea just speculating. Agian point being add in stupid funny fun you would be suprsied. You put up a title for something as stupid as the most brahmin collected. Womebody will collected those brahmins and fill the base until every last hex is filled. Agian fun stupid goofy things keep people around than the usual rage master bull shit game this is now which is drawing people away.

[T-888]

We already have all sort of individual statistics, best doctor, melee fighter and there is some silly stuff too, if you want more of them, that would need to be discussed separately as different suggestion as it barely touches factions or this subject to be honest. Though nothing wrong with your idea.

[gr1m is here]

We already have all sort of individual statistics, best doctor, melee fighter and there is some silly stuff too, if you want more of them, that would need to be discussed separately as different suggestion as it barely touches factions or this subject to be honest. Though nothing wrong with your idea.

But those are invidual statistics, I am mostly talking about something done as a group of players added to the same base. Need more things that are fun and a good laugh than the usual rage master fuck this game rage quit state that it is in. That is why people are quiting its a rage master game that needs some troll face for those who like to laugh and have sense of humor. But laughing and sense of humor annoys people who run this game so... I guess they enjoy all their players getting pissed off and quiting, and that is the issue of the dropped numbers. And they seem to be blind by what they mod for this game makes people angry and quit and get offended when people say "hey look the player numbers are dropping it was bigger back in 2010, 2011 because the game was better and more enjoyable then".