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Whaa- ... i don't recognize such a monster. Leave me out of this.

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Total Members Voted: 81

[T-888]

There can be much done to shove crit-bursters in the ground, that's the problem. Simply trying too hard, too much to change at once can just ruin them completely, i advise simple changes at first, then observe the results.

My " wild " guess is to cut down existing damage multipliers for about 1/5( if 90-80 roll 4x multiplier, then set it to 3.2x, if 80-70 roll 3.5x, change it to 2,8x, this is not only going to make the overall damage of critical hits lower, but make their damage a little bit more consistent?, instead of 0.5x difference between rolls, it's gonna be 0.4x ) well obvious, nerf the damage. Isn't RL doing some mad 200 criticals already? If that's so, with the AOE ability it wouldn't be bad to nerf a bit.

Then the bypass problem, it's not game breaking for a sniper to do regular bypasses due to their mechanics, how they work, flaws, advantages etc. etc. their well balanced, skill based. Though for a big gunner, i don't think they should be possible to do regular bypasses, currently even against 5 luck characters it results roughly for about 30+% chance to score a bypass, that's god awful too much if you ask me. Cut down it by at least 1/3 for sure, instead of 60% on 1 luck, that's gonna be 40%, dooh.

Perks, armor, frequency of critical hits, weapons, nothing else is not touched at all.

After this, we could " test " and provide some feedback and insight, maybe something else will need to be attacked, maybe this will do the trick.

[Spotty]

Then the bypass problem, it's not game breaking for a sniper to do regular bypasses due to their mechanics, how they work, flaws, advantages etc. etc. their well balanced, skill based. Though for a big gunner, i don't think they should be possible to do regular bypasses, currently even against 5 luck characters it results roughly for about 30+% chance to score a bypass, that's god awful too much if you ask me. Cut down it by at least 1/3 for sure, instead of 60% on 1 luck, that's gonna be 40%, dooh.

Perhaps only allow bypasses from aimed shots and splash damage?

[Nice_Boat]

Even with 200 damage critburst would still mostly mean death because most critbursts are doubleshotters. So it's about 270 damage in short time.

Think about it like this: critburst needs to be equally good as plasma build because their gear costs pretty much the same and work within the same area of combat. Both are hard hitters but slightly differend way.
How I see it is that critburst needs to have better average damage, but worse peak damage and effects (ko, kd, criple). I honestly don't know how good are best plasma crits, but they sure as hell aren't 250, hardly ever even 200.

Most critbursters aren't 2-burst builds and if they are they have extremely low HP (not 250-ish, more like 200-ish), so given the fact 270 damage doesn't kill a max HP build (and they really are popular) they simply need it. If it's not real 2 bursts, you can stim or duck behind cover between shots, so there's nothing wrong with that as most hits aren't crits anyway. What I'm saying is if you get hit by a burster with a critical, you should have a very narrow window of escape, not just shrug it off and keep on fighting like a baws. The problems start when there is no escape because you're 1HKO'd, but being able to survive it while remaining combat effective and not on the brink of death would be even worse as it'd basically remove those builds from the game.

As far as comparing critbursts to torso with eyeshots, that's just wrong. First of all, most critburster attacks aren't critical hits while on the other hand most Plasma Rifle hits are critical hits. It's like 25% to 75%, basically when you fire a burst weapon you don't expect the crit and when you fire a Plasma Rifle you expect and rely on landing a crit. That's why drawing a direct comparison between the damage both do is just wrong, especially since eyeshots KO, KD etc. and you sort of hope for that effect as much as a burster hopes for a crit... and do keep in mind that KD up close is often effectively an instakill. The problem with Plasma builds being trash is that Plasma Rifle has low range and the new perk system keeps those builds from having high HP while being effective at dealing damage. You basically can't have a 1.5-shot (not to mention 2-shot) Plasma build that will have max HP (which it needs) and crit perks/rbte (which make it a Plasma build in the first place).

Perhaps only allow bypasses from aimed shots and splash damage?

Splash never crits.


Also, for balancing purposes, it'd be nice if the devs created some way of submitting top tier PvP builds without them being visible for other players. Obviously nobody's going to post their builds in public and the devs should have access to best builds and use them as a reference point. That way they could simply disregard the opinions of people who haven't leveled up their game enough to talk endgame mechanics - and keep in mind such people pushing their agenda have hurt the balancing of 2238 a lot in the past. Oh, and if you decide to run along with this idea, please make it credible and don't leak the builds you collect, I bet my ass it'd keep a lot of people from sending them in.

[Spotty]

Splash never crits.

Was talking about rockets here. Anyhow, idea was snipers do crit bypasses since they aim, while rockets do bypasses due to shrapnel finding a way in.

[Kilgore]

Before, we had 1.5x up to 2x multipliers with no chance to bypass but on rare occasion, you could KD or KO your opponent. Why dont we go this path when it was somewhat balanced after all ?

Yeah, this was fine.

[JovankaB]

Perhaps only allow bypasses from aimed shots and splash damage?

Or make only several bullets from burst bypass armor.
I think it doesn't make much sense to have all bullets to bypass anyway (they don't hit the same spot).

[Nice_Boat]

Why would you even want to follow real world logic when dealing with this stuff? I mean it's good when the two go hand in hand (as much as the abstract HP system allows), but I think when it comes to PvP-viable gear it should be modified with team PvP balance in mind.

[Sarakin]

Plasma rifle is so shitty nowadays compared to laser rifle, that unless we nerf LR or buff PR, theres really no point in using one.
I dont think RL should be anything but support weapon, splash and knockback is enough.
Every critburster I know has 11/12 AP because its really easy to squeeze it in, just 10 AGI and jet. Add 10 END ,pick 2 lifegivers and you got 250+ hp 2 burster with 6 free perks.

[JovankaB]

Why would you even want to follow real world logic when dealing with this stuff?

I don't, it just happens to be logical in real world terms as well (or seems that way to me), which doesn't hurt at all.

[T-888]

Or make only several bullets from burst bypass armor.
I think it doesn't make much sense to have all bullets to bypass anyway (they don't hit the same spot).

This could balance out bypasses without changing their frequency. That would be very nice, altering the burst spread formula instead of critical tables, never thought of that.

[Kelin]

Every critburster I know has 11/12 AP because its really easy to squeeze it in, just 10 AGI and jet. Add 10 END ,pick 2 lifegivers and you got 250+ hp 2 burster with 6 free perks.

Exactly.

[T-888]

http://clip2net.com/s/25U8y

Balanced critical build for avenger, i have no idea how much damage it would do with more ranged damage(+3 damage per bullet), can do without brof, add either more health, or bonus ranged damage. -15 DR from jet doesn't work on armors if you don't have bonuses like psycho, toughness, that should be clear.

On drugs already in screen, small frame , jet/buff/cigs/nuka ....

[Tree]

I don't think its so much the critical multiplier it also takes into effect of 3brd. Lets say you shoot a target with no damage resists, you hit them for 100-120 on mamk2 you do a roll for a multiplier of x2 damage, that is still 200-240 damage crit. And a x2 damage mutiplier isn't consider a high crit roll. Supposively this was reworked but it seems more so for snipers and knockouts than being balanced for big guns.

Why not just rework spray n pray to work like sniper perk in fallout2 where it criticals based off of your luck. This could be reworked for balance, a character with 1 luck well not benefit but a character with 10 luck benefits but at the same time sacrificing special points, and the only thing this well do max is a x2 damage crit and a chance of knock down with better critical for higher crit rolls, but highest crit is a x2 damage multiplier.

With crit bursting luck is not as important when compared to eye/head/limb shooters for example. I think a rework of critical math for the spray n pray perk would be a suggestion of mine for a solution to this pvp balance crisis.

Or... Rework man of steel for counter measure? I think a good balance would be man of steel to work like iron grip, tree trunk thys etc... for torso. We already have bonehead and double the crit resist with helmets, there needs to be some torso protection perk. Bonehead + man of steel is also a bad balance the way it is because it makes these big gun crit bursters even more powerful becuase now snipers can't get a decent crit shooting them in the eyes or head. This has put pvp out of balance for snipers and laser alike. This whole crit burst thing pretty much just turned pvp into a bg crit burst fest. Man of steel should give torso crit resists not resist to all, kind of ridulous when you put into helmets into perspective, man of steel +10 crit resist and another +10resist with bonehead to head and eyes. So with a combat helmet that is +30 critical resist to head and eyes while torso has 0 because of spray n pray.

Or another idea is spray n pray should be reworked to be something more like more bullets hit target. For example at 35 hexes instead of 4 bullets hitting with an lsw its 8 when taking this perk (if this is even possible to modify).

[Nice_Boat]

http://clip2net.com/s/25U8y

Balanced critical build for avenger, i have no idea how much damage it would do with more ranged damage(+3 damage per bullet), can do without brof, add either more health, or bonus ranged damage. -15 DR from jet doesn't work on armors if you don't have bonuses like psycho, toughness, that should be clear.

On drugs already in screen, small frame , jet/buff/cigs/nuka ....

This build is crap for a critburster, it doesn't even have max crit chance or max HP. You have to burst 3 times to have 48% for a crit (kill) while a normal 10-11AP critburster has to burst 2 times for 44%. But yeah, I sort of expected people rolling on obsolete shit the moment I've read about 12AP BG builds, lol.

[T-888]

Usually only new players think that maximum of something is the only way to go, that build bursts faster though with lower chance to crit, it doesn't matter if you have a higher chance, if i am the one that shoots twice when you shoot once, compare the chances then. You forget that AP is not only just a tool to measure DPS, it's how fast you can eat SS, reload your weapon, open some focking doors when you need to.

11 AP vs 12 AP means having 5% crit chance difference? What sort of bullshit is this? Unless your running around with LSW/gatling that relies only on bypasses.

Avenger doesn't need bypasses to do shit tons of damage.