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[Solar]

Urgh, why do people have to post like complete douche bags? So very tiresome.

[Reconite]

Sorry if this seems offensive Solar, but it seems you have a bad habit of giving out false information. Happened more than once.

I suggest you doublecheck things before officially confirming them on the forum.

Also I have been suggesting for maybe 2 years at least that this game should have the Fallout Tactics shotgun ammo types, this idea has been discussed in multiple threads in a signficantly positive manner among players and just gets ignored every time. What exactly is the problem with a couple of different shotgun shells? Slugs and Flechette, like AP ammo, but you can also keep the classic shells too I guess.

I don't know why an idea which makes so much sense just hasn't gone past the "idea" stage in the past two years.

[Smalltime]

I don't know why an idea which makes so much sense just hasn't gone past the "idea" stage in the past two years.

I'm going to stop you right there. Expecting new content, is expecting too much.

[Solar]

Using 2 BRD (+4) and BRoF and ignoring the critical hits - against CA  which does not suffer deterioration:

Jackhammer

lar: ok, Jackhammer
23:10:10 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:10:15 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:10:19 • JovankaB was hit for 73 hit points.
23:10:24 • JovankaB was hit for 82 hit points.
23:10:29 • JovankaB was critically hit for 168 hit points.
23:10:34 • JovankaB was critically hit for 191 hit points.
23:10:38 • JovankaB was critically hit for 201 hit points.
23:10:43 • JovankaB was critically hit for 207 hit points.
23:10:47 • JovankaB was hit for 66 hit points.
23:10:53 • JovankaB was critically hit for 204 hit points.
23:10:57 • JovankaB was critically hit for 209 hit points.
23:11:02 • JovankaB was hit for 77 hit points.
23:11:07 • JovankaB was hit for 73 hit points.
23:11:11 • JovankaB was critically hit for 267 hit points.
23:11:16 • JovankaB was critically hit for 160 hit points.
23:11:20 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:11:25 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:11:30 • JovankaB was hit for 84 hit points.
23:11:39 • Solar: weird sting of criticals :/

Average of 76.7, 5 AP shot is 15.34 per AP

Avenger

Solar: now avenger
23:11:54 • JovankaB was hit for 96 hit points.
23:11:59 • JovankaB was hit for 98 hit points.
23:12:05 • JovankaB was hit for 109 hit points.
23:12:10 • JovankaB was hit for 107 hit points.
23:12:16 • JovankaB was critically hit for 197 hit points.
23:12:21 • JovankaB was critically hit for 295 hit points.
23:12:27 • JovankaB was hit for 112 hit points.
23:12:29 • JovankaB: ap ammo?
23:12:32 • JovankaB was hit for 108 hit points.
23:12:38 • JovankaB was hit for 112 hit points.
23:12:40 • Solar: yeah
23:12:43 • JovankaB was hit for 109 hit points.
23:12:52 • JovankaB was hit for 93 hit points.
23:12:58 • JovankaB was hit for 103 hit points.
23:13:03 • JovankaB was hit for 112 hit points.

Average of 105.36, 17.56 per AP

17.56 / 15.34 = 1.14%

From the other thread where I had the expected +4 table:
Avenger AP    2.795314642
PID_PANCOR_JACKHAMMER    2.404258973

2.795 / 2.404 = 1.16%

I'd call that reasonable correlation between expected results and actual game results.

I say again, that table is correct.

Sorry if this seems offensive Solar, but it seems you have a bad habit of giving out false information. Happened more than once.

I think what you mean to say is I frequently have to prove what I am saying is correct when players get it wrong (as in this instance, or when all the TC players thought LSW > Avenger), or I find something is not right and fix it (in the instance of the xl70).

However I accept your apology. Brooce, I accept yours too. Pancor does the expected damage on the game. That damage is near the very top of the DPS table.

I'm going to stop you right there. Expecting new content, is expecting too much.

Yeah, nothing new at all. Damn us! Oh wait, unless you count the new stuff.


Advice to the 3 of you. If you're going to post in an offensive tone, make sure you're right.

You guys should try playing the game. Yawn. There's an hour less done on the game this evening :/

[Smalltime]

Yeah, nothing new at all. Damn us! Oh wait, unless you count the new stuff.

Like Militia? Thank you, based devs. The new town control system that encourages AFKing alts in towns? I apologize, for I probably could not live without it.

I actually do apologize, because I am coming off as a huge dick. It just sucks trying to enjoy a game that has so many balance issues and actual problems. And this lag that has been lurking under the guise of a debug script? I sincerely hope that whatever you're debugging, would have been a MUCH larger problem than an entire week ridden with unplayable lag spikes. I can't count, using both hands (unless I get fancy or innovative or something) how many stories I've heard over the past week of people dying due to a sudden lag spike. Example: being dragged into an encounter, and then killed while being unable to defend themselves.
And because I did bring up militia before, holy christ, do you have any idea how annoying they are? Town Control doesn't even feel like it is about PvP anymore. The only way to beat the militia is apparently to get into a room and let them come to you as you burst them when they come in the door. Or there is that whole thing that SoT did in the Den, something about camping in the Brotherhood bunker and making the brotherhood kill everything for them. That was reaaaal classy.

I love the game's formula. I love open world pvp. You guys have done an okay job getting this far. But, I can't help but be displeased when I hear friends quitting because of the constant bug-related deaths and other shenanigannery.
</end rant>

[Solar]

I actually do apologize, because I am coming off as a huge dick.

Quite, I think its best to leave that there.

As to the other things, we can see the problems just as you can. However, we go as fast as we can. All the raging in the world won't give us any more free time, so we progress at the only rate we can progress at.

[Paladin]

Right now is situation about shotguns dead .... Variety of ammo is nice idea something like in Fallout Tactisc should be nice I always loved electric ammo. But who will use shotgun now ? Answer is noone because if you want to shoot from Hi Tech shotgun like a Pancor you must find Blueprint (I dont count how many chests you must open how much time you kill with finding chests ....) and also you must have crafter or buy it if you are so lucky ... on other side if you want BG burster with avenger or minigun you can get this gun simplier than treasure hunting from chests because there are many encounters with these guns but there are no encounters for pancor for example. Another problem of shotgun is range diffrence betwen Pancor (16hex) and CAWS (14hex) ... imposible to reach. Ohter think hex bonus ... every bursting weapon has 3x damage from hex to target ... shotgun has nothing everybody knows that shotgun has highest power from closer distance even instakills everything. Maybe adding knock-down feature for Hi-Tech shotguns but now you have no chance you can only kill brahmins with shotgun ....

[Slaver Snipe]

Honestly I enjoy using the H&K, its burst damage is very near what the pancors is due to 1 extra bullet and it's range is very close to the same.  Also for that blueprint there's a simple quest, and shotgun ammo is always plentiful.

[farnak]

Using 2 BRD (+4) and BRoF and ignoring the critical hits - against CA  which does not suffer deterioration:

The difference between them lies in the fact that shotgun has 12-16 hex range, but avenger has 35 hex range.
Also at range=1 Avenger annihilates almost anybody with ONE burst, but shotgun still has it's funny damage.

[Solar]

The pancor is also craftable and can flay a guy in ca using ammo you can craft on a work bench / or you will be able to farm on easier encounters.

[avv]

Better, rare hq ammo would suit shotguns. High tier hq ammo would suit all guns, even .44 pistol, .45 guns and mauser. So even if those weapons could be considered troll gear, they could be loaded with devilish ammo and used in real action.

I'd call that reasonable correlation between expected results and actual game results.

But avenger has more range and does better spike damage. Spike and range is everything, damage per ap is nothing or else rocket launcher sucks because of statistics. I don't think anyone ingame thinks damage as per ap but per attack animation and how much you can do when unloading your max ap. Avenger can dish out 200 dmg with doubleburst from longer range than pancor, that's why it's better.

In addition players have more resistances than plain ca. They might have psycho and toughness. The more additional resists they have, the less damage pancor does because it has no armor piercing qualities, unlike ap ammo in avenger. Or lsw's 223 ammo.

But if anything, thanks for discussing this with us.

[JovankaB]

Maybe make all shotgun BPs guaranteed items obtainable with quests (if they aren't yet).
All 3 quests would have gradually increased PvE difficulty.

And 4th PvE quest giving special perk for shotgun users (available for people who can craft all shotguns).
No idea what it could be though.

Then it could be weapon for people who like crafting & quests

[Solar]

Well, I'm glad you made me go off and check what the effect would be, because now I'm sure the Perk to make DT not decrease would work

If you factor in Psycho, Beer and the Toughnesses then the Avenger AP does an extra 91% damage compared to a Jackhammer. If you then factor in a perk which would make DT not /3 from AP then the Jackhammer would do an extra 36%

[Brooce]

Well, I'm glad you made me go off and check what the effect would be, because now I'm sure the Perk to make DT not decrease would work

If you factor in Psycho, Beer and the Toughnesses then the Avenger AP does an extra 91% damage compared to a Jackhammer. If you then factor in a perk which would make DT not /3 from AP then the Jackhammer would do an extra 36%

OH so when you factor in normal resistance, the weapon which has no pierce and ammo with no AP mod, DOES LESS DAMAGE. My god, its almost as if this is what everyone has been saying the entire time. This is the sole reason why shotguns are broken, and why everyone has been begging for change. I wont wait for an apology tho....

I'm sorry if I sound smug, but the conversation is circular; which is tiring. I'm sure you can understand that. Simply put there needs to be more ammo types for the shotgun. It is the only gun (barring lasers/plasma) that has only one ammo type. I can't think of any reason to defend this mechanic.

[Imrinfected]

Well, I'm glad you made me go off and check what the effect would be, because now I'm sure the Perk to make DT not decrease would work

If you factor in Psycho, Beer and the Toughnesses then the Avenger AP does an extra 91% damage compared to a Jackhammer. If you then factor in a perk which would make DT not /3 from AP then the Jackhammer would do an extra 36%

So basically, the Pancor is not a viable PvP weapon, and is essentially an expensive and rare grinding tool, which is silly.

Really, if shotguns had some kind of armor piercing ammo, this would be solved. Slugs and Flechettes would be ideal.

Do you guys not know how to add ammo types? Now that I think of it, I've never actually seen that done in 2238.