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Randomness in Fonline 2238

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Johnny Nuclear:
Randomness is part of life, without it it would become a bit boring, don't you think ?
Same will happen with game, without randomness we could start playing fonline in Excel tables :/

Kilgore:
Merging skills, eliminating randomness..

..yeah. The future of this game is:
- removing SPECIAL and all skills because players will minmax/use alts anyway, so why not make all people using the same build (equality is a good thing),
- removing all traces of randomness because it's unfair and doesn't have anything in common with player's skill (fair play is a good thing).

Seriously: what a bullshit.


--- Quote ---So all our pvp players leave this game.
--- End quote ---
I don't know anyone who has left this game because of randomness, though I know many that are not playing this game anymore. Btw in earlier sessions "random criticals" were much more devastating, with relatively large chance to cause instakill, not to mention shooting eyes from every direction.. ;]

avv:

--- Quote from: RavenousRat on October 28, 2011, 04:13:22 PM ---Because it'll be the same as if you need to click needed bodypart on player's model to hit it, not choose on special created window for example. Of course RT mode kills alot at RPG, as player plays more role than needed in it, character with lower sequence can shoot you 1st, only because player has better reaction or internet connection, what isn't right in RPG.
--- End quote ---

You can never achieve credible rpg settings because players will always know things the character can't know. Player's skill and knowledge will always have effect how the character manages ingame.


--- Quote from: Surf on October 28, 2011, 04:21:05 PM ---In your previous comment you basically said all randomness is bad (wtf..), now you say there is good randomness and bad randomness. Revisionist much?
--- End quote ---

I've only been about randomness in pvp.


--- Quote ---Ah, so it's only good if it auto-fellates you and makes something "awesome", but losing something is a no-go?  ::)
--- End quote ---

Basically it's about not messing with other people. It doesn't hurt me if someone encounters a nice random encounter and it doesn't hurt my enemy if I encounter it. But if someone defeats me or I defeat him due to random occurance, it starts to matter. 


--- Quote from: Surf on October 28, 2011, 04:21:05 PM ---But that's just how it is - luck ofcourse plays a role. The same way you can fail pretty bad due to a bad die throw, you can score a critical success as well. Where's the problem?
--- End quote ---

Problem are over the top crit effects that can decide who dies or lives. Best crits are ridiculously strong compared to failed crits or weakest crits. It's mostly problem in small scale pvp because losing one man there matters more. In big scale fights strategy decides the winner.


--- Quote ---To simplify it even further, what would any boardgame look like if you take away the dices, or make it so the dices always land on the same number the player wants, like avv said? Would Monopoly be a better game if there'd be no dices at all?
--- End quote ---


Monopoly is designed around the dice, fonline pvp can do without it. We have enough factors and features to form interesting settings that player can apply for their benefit. For example sneaking is very interesting and fun and there's no randomness included. You don't randomly show up from either 20 or 10 hexes, but the visibility is fixed depending on skill% and enemy PE. This helps the sneaker make plans, execute those plans and get satisfying and expected results.

Johnnybravo:
Of course that randomness is not needed in competitive environment, but many people are not open for changes.

The biggest problem of a game without any random rolls is the fact player has to decide those now. Usually most players are not interested in trivial choices so they are ok with server or client pulling out random choice (like attack animations).
Also take note that only random factor caused by pseudogenerator can be removed. I cannot do anything with random factor caused by connection/weather/human factor, so the game will NEVER run in exactly same situations, no matter that it could happen every time, because there is no need to make a roll for it.

Another big challenge in Fonline is rather shallow combating, but this is something that is possible to be improved. I personally think that it should be possible to build on rather expanded rules (I want to have called shots for burst attacks as well, at least). Character creation is a little more complicated, because skills can no longer change any chances. For skills like doctor or first aid, this is not a problem, but for combat skills it completely changes their purpose. It really can't be just raw damage increase, but unlocking feature, and allowing to attack further without losing damage or something works correctly (eg. it should be possible to add requirements of 200 in skill to attack eyes).


--- Quote --- removing SPECIAL and all skills because players will minmax/use alts anyway, so why not make all people using the same build (equality is a good thing),
--- End quote ---
You can imagine that without anything random there is no way to have special anymore. Luck has to become something else (it can be for example Finesse - increasing limb damage, and bonus from called shots).
Another example is gamble, but that is unused already so no loss.


--- Quote ---It would, it would be fucking boring.
--- End quote ---
This is totally different thing. In Ice Hockey you don't gain a control over puck by tossing a coin either.


--- Quote ---Well, it would be definitely interesting to have your rules translated into test server for people to check this out.
--- End quote ---
Well the plan is to implement it to see how much can Fonline do :d.

T-888:
I read all posts , i see no point of discussing randomness in general and especially randomness in fonline:2238. Some things are just a matter of opinion , not everything is black and white and therefore cannot be one truth. I believe this is the case.

I can say this , there has to be a good mix of randomness , the game doesn't have to be completely without random factors for it to be enjoyable , competitive or even skill based in that matter. For example the most popular and competitive first person shooter game in the world , has some random factors for burst weapons but is still skill based , luck and randomness has it's place , yet it's counter strike. I know it's a different game , but you can't deny that some principles do apply.

I wish that fonline2238 would be less random , but i fear that eradicating randomness completely wouldn't be the right solution.

I have spoken , i may not talk again in this topic , don't even try to quote this post. I don't give a fuck alright. :)

This may be another 10 page topic , in witch i don't wish to participate.

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