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Total Members Voted: 96

[seb910]

Wichura play setlers or some other economic game.

[T-888]

THIS. One hundred times THIS. Also, it'd make those gay 15 person+ swarms go away and actually reward skillful play instead of skillful IRC diplomacy.

This is kinda awkward , do you realize you just called most of the server players gay because they like pvp in large groups ?

Another thing , you clearly don't know anything about " skill " if that's what you call it , why the fuck do you even post here if you don't participate in TC enough so that someone could actually believe you have a viable point why TC should be changed like that , " gay 15+ person swarms " is not a reason , it's a miserable cry.

Friendly advice , shut up garbage.

Now there's a chance you gonna suck up my given information or try to be even more useless in this discussion.

Neither I am.Toilet Control? :>

But regular Tree Control looks and means, that bunch of d00dz swarms at city being ... erm ... "ultimate battlefield" or "solid warzone" to shoot militia and/or another swarm, making "Fallout" nothing more than just a word in game's name. Cheaters are welcomed, as more = better. Funny thing is that factions actually able to participate are like 5? 10?

Do you really think your clever if you quote me ?

The funny thing war , battlefields , warzones etc. etc. is a part of fallout , hence " war , war never changes " do i really have to repeat myself in all the discussions , like fallout tactics pure combat or you gonna start mumbling that " it isn't original fallout " then you should really go stick your head in a toilet , flush it and control the stream.

Is it so hard to realize that not everyone is into roleplaying and there are other aspects of the game that may seem not so important to you but like half of the server or even more players play fonline2238 because of it's unique feature to actually battle others in this fonline2238 world like requiem has most of the players hardcore pvp'ers.Then again some may like fallout for it's unique roleplay aspect and the story itself or a good mix of both like tttla is a major fighting party in the wasteland with roleplay touch and don't start giving me crap about how good their RP is , they like it and enjoy it.

About proxies heh , when devs make a game that doesn't promote cheating , well you won't see cheaters anymore.

Talking about the version of TC when you actually don't control it unless you have some men sitting in the town , are you all blind or what ? I just imagine how people will leave fully armed powerbuilds in the city sitting all day on a proxy , what's the point that will just make the game unnecessary annoying and " cheaters " benefit.

The idea about timewindows still stay the most viable option right now.

Like those windows should be at least 2 hours long and  there shouldn't be a cap how much times you can take the city , just 2 hours of pure action and no restrictions.

[Nice_Boat]

This is kinda awkward , do you realize you just called most of the server players gay because they like pvp in large groups ?

Another thing , you clearly don't know anything about " skill " if that's what you call it , why the fuck do you even post here if you don't participate in TC enough so that someone could actually believe you have a viable point why TC should be changed like that , " gay 15+ person swarms " is not a reason , it's a miserable cry.

Friendly advice , shut up garbage.

Now there's a chance you gonna suck up my given information or try to be even more useless in this discussion.

You're being aggressive for no reason. Small PvP (let's say below 10v10) is more demanding in terms of skill than swarm battles which are too often resolved on IRC even before they start. Small scale PvP gives you more action due to simpler logistics etc. so arguably you get more bang for your buck. Besides, I never said large scale PvP is not enjoyable (heck, NA vs DA was fun while it lasted), but it involves a lot of waiting and when the numbers are close the luck factor is just too large. Anyone with some experience will tell you just that. And in terms of skill... well, my gang totally dominated the wastes back in 2009 which resulted in the first large alliance ever being formed just to counter us and I was in the team that won the Ares tournament (didn't see you around back then, lol) and I've been playing PvP with just a few months of break since then, so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about when I mention "skill". You're free to think otherwise, but you're going to sound funny when you put it like that.

[Kilgore]

Yawn.

Dear T-888, unfortunately it seems that you have never seen any other TC setting (there were several of them) so all your smartness isn't based on anything else than current TC setting. Speaking about leaving powerbuild guarding the town, haha, are you able to handle playing 2 powerbuilds simultaneously without getting killed every fucking time? I doubt it, to be honest I saw such action only once and it was still far from being effective enough.

If you played before, you would know that any possible pvp action happened always in the last few minutes of each TC window, not 2 hours, and it's based on gameplay experience from 3rd session and not mine or your imagination. Speaking about 2 hours of pure action is ridiculous for anyone who played more than one session. Speaking about Nice Boat's TC experience you're still missing critically, as he participated in much more TC fights than you, my dear. So before you continue your theorycrafting, maybe let post those people who are/were playing this game more than you :>

[Pozzo]

What about let the militia system as it is while the town is not possible to be taken and remove militia while town is in a timewindows. That way TC will happen without PVE but factions handling the town can still organize events or whatever RP outside from the timewindows without the need of 10 BAs players to protect the town. There is also bugs to solve like militia killing each other and adding militia while timer is on.

I agree with that guy. Milicians are mercenaries employed by the faction controling the town. When the job is done, milicians come back home.
So let's say the town stay secured and untakable for 1 day when controled by a faction. When the time is over, the town become neutral and the milicians go away. So the faction will have to defend the town by itself.
When the timer is running, milicians protect the town and become secured as NCR is for now (so people can come in town to mine and trade). I think that will offer some good battles for PvP and other players will enjoy to come safely in northern cities.

So everyone is happy 

[T-888]

You're being aggressive for no reason. Small PvP (let's say below 10v10) is more demanding in terms of skill than swarm battles which are too often resolved on IRC even before they start.Small scale PvP gives you more action due to simpler logistics etc. so arguably you get more bang for your buck. Besides, I never said large scale PvP is not enjoyable (heck, NA vs DA was fun while it lasted), but it involves a lot of waiting and when the numbers are close the luck factor is just too large.

Small scale pvp is no way more skill demanding than large scale , the same principles apply in large scale pvp , i have had a lot pvp since i started to play this game and i can say this by observation , i can make mistakes in small scale pvp and get away with them not get vaporized in a second due to a simple fact that i face less opponents and my mistakes are not so costly as in large scale pvp.

In big battles , just one mistake , just one bad decision where are you standing , gonna stand , run or shoot every single bit counts whether you survive and it is more intensive due to less chance of survival as an individual not as a team if i think about it it's almost the same. I have experienced this many times , the difference itself.

Anyone with some experience will tell you just that. And in terms of skill... well, my gang totally dominated the wastes back in 2009 which led to the first large alliance and I was in the team that won the Ares tournament (didn't see you around back then, lol) and I've been playing PvP with just a few months of break since then, so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about when I mention "skill". You're free to think otherwise, but you're going to sound funny when you put it like that.

That was in 2009 each season pvp changes in this server , different principles apply.

Yawn.
Dear T-888, unfortunately it seems that you have never seen any other TC setting (there were several of them) so all your smartness isn't based on anything else than current TC setting. Speaking about leaving powerbuild guarding the town, haha, are you able to handle playing 2 powerbuilds simultaneously without getting killed every fucking time? I doubt it, to be honest I saw such action only once and it was still far from being effective enough.

You didn't get the point , you leave a powerbuild in the city just to control it and be ready to defend it when someone comes ASAP , you don't need to control 2 powerbuilds simultaneously , just one in case someone comes. Get it now ?

Well you are right i haven't experienced other tc settings , but it doesn't answer my argument.

If you played before, you would know that any possible pvp action happened always in the last few minutes of each TC window, not 2 hours, and it's based on gameplay experience from 3rd session and not mine or your imagination. Speaking about 2 hours of pure action is ridiculous for anyone who played more than one session.

I think my idea is a bit different didn't point that out , for 2 hours you can take or retake the city countless times.


ehmm.... Yawn

btw my " smartness " is based on logic too not only some flat facts.

and i don't care how much you have played the game if i don't see any strong arguments from your side , you can change my mind if you actually tell me something other than " i have been here longer than you "

[Nice_Boat]

Small scale pvp is no way more skill demanding than large scale , the same principles apply in large scale pvp , i have had a lot pvp since i started to play this game and i can say this by observation , i can make mistakes in small scale pvp and get away with them not get vaporized in a second due to a simple fact that i face less opponents and my mistakes are not so costly as in large scale pvp.

In big battles , just one mistake , just one bad decision where are you standing , gonna stand , run or shoot every single bit counts whether you survive and it is more intensive due to less chance of survival as an individual not as a team if i think about it it's almost the same. I have experienced this many times , the difference itself.

In large scale PvP there are situations when you face odds that you can't overcome no matter how well you play. In small scale PvP when you die, it's entirely your fault. That's why I said small scale PvP demands more skill and allows for more tactical finesse (no matter how well the commander does his job, you can't maneuvre with 20 people as well as you can with 5). And if you say you can make mistakes in small scale PvP you obviously haven't seen too many well executed room takedowns or flanking moves. Combat used to be more lethal before all the damage nerfs, but it still is pretty hardcore even when you're fighting 2v2.

That was in 2009 each season pvp changes in this server , different principles apply.

Not really, no. You still use the same techniques for movement and engagement you used back in 2009, the only "new" thing was the introduction of formations like sniper lines or BG lines which became necessary when you fought 20 vs 20, but that was way back in 2010. I'd say I still have way more experience than you - it's just a fact, nothing to get angry about. Besides how can you compare the current TC with what was in 2009 if you haven't even played back in 2009?

[wreese2u]

Remove millita.

Domination mode.

As mazrum said, 15 - 30 minutes for reward.

Make more TC-able places.

Game is fun once more

[T-888]

In large scale PvP there are situations when you face odds that you can't overcome no matter how well you play. In small scale PvP when you die, it's entirely your fault.

If you face odds you can't overcome it is you made a mistake or the team made a mistake. In small scale pvp when you die it's entirely your fault and in big battles you make excuse " oh noes they were more than me " right ? I mean man your so wrong off the track.

That's why I said small scale PvP demands more skill and allows for more tactical finesse (no matter how well the commander does his job, you can't maneuvre with 20 people as well as you can with 5).

It's actually a challenge to maneuver with 20 people as good as 5 people that's why it takes more skill , goddammit. I think you haven't played with msh.

And if you say you can make mistakes in small scale PvP you obviously haven't seen too many well executed room takedowns or flanking moves. Combat used to be more lethal before all the damage nerfs, but it still is pretty hardcore even when you're fighting 2v2.

I haven't seen what ? You know you haven't seen me 1 vs 4 guys , i'm basicly starting to talk like you. None of that is a viable argument.

Not really, no. You still use the same techniques for movement and engagement you used back in 2009, the only "new" thing was the introduction of formations like sniper lines or BG lines which became necessary when you fought 20 vs 20, but that was way back in 2010. I'd say I still have way more experience than you - it's just a fact, nothing to get angry about.

Combat used to be more lethal before all the damage nerfs, but it still is pretty hardcore even when you're fighting 2v2.

I quoted you to answer you. The same techniques for movement and engagement , the pvp was different overall people had a completly different experience , your are in denial with your own arguments man.

btw i watched some very old videos of pvp the whole pvp was so weird and allien to what it is now. I remember some screenshots of powerbuilds in 2009/2010 , like every build was some kind of tank , how can the same techniques apply ?

Still i don't see any strong arguments , don't care man how experienced you are then.

[Johnnybravo]

but it involves a lot of waiting

So go find another game. This is no "hurr durr I click you first, me better!!1!!" (no offense, but the combat itself is rather simple). There is much more possibilities with every new player included, if you can imagine only that the more they are, the better they can rush, it's a little sad. On contrary with just few people around it's more about random generator, regrouping from respawn, etc. Clearly artificial limitations and not "skill". Though would you really butcher the game combat system to make it faster? It's almost unique to have game where combat is based on positioning and not egos.

Anyway it's not just about the quality of optimal matchup. TC should more importantly think about server population. I don't think it's cool if every guy can get few friends and go TC, but it shouldn't just result in everyone working together to gain massive advantages.
I think that optimally there should be artificially balanced (somewhat helping to eliminate gear/manpower advantage) warzones yielding nice enough rewards, while Town controls being relatively long term and more social/minigame based. Taking over a town should then be result of long preparations and every one of them being memorable event. This should make sure that there is enough of ego action going on as well, because more people will use those warzones than attempt to TC. This should be good, if you ever want town control to play some social role. Though there should be some way to eliminate or reduce the profit from TC that would make rich richer.

Still, there is a need to discourage players from banding all together to completely outtake minorities from the system. This will probably work good by making several cities easier to take over, and more rewarding for "weaker" groups.
Right now if some small force gets Klamath, they either get facerolled by bored people, or they will lose it in matter of very few days - essentially killing any economic and social profit from the control.

I would really like to see the control being longer term status, and social part of it being more important than economic boost. But nothing to be achieved without other massive changes, as there is little to do than to kill or craft, and it's much more profitable to just kill everyone you can.

Remember this is just my opinion, so you might not agree with it. But just say, why would you really play just TC if there was more balanced and more complicated (like announced landmines and stuff), while also not killing of social part of the game, even though most of pvpers do not care about it anymore.

[seb910]

I agree with that guy. Milicians are mercenaries employed by the faction controling the town. When the job is done, milicians come back home.
So let's say the town stay secured and untakable for 1 day when controled by a faction. When the time is over, the town become neutral and the milicians go away. So the faction will have to defend the town by itself.
When the timer is running, milicians protect the town and become secured as NCR is for now (so people can come in town to mine and trade). I think that will offer some good battles for PvP and other players will enjoy to come safely in northern cities.

So everyone is happy 

NO PLEASE NOOOO!!! I don`t want happy talkers, they can happy talk on irc. No militia! North is north.

[Nice_Boat]

If you face odds you can't overcome it is you made a mistake or the team made a mistake. In small scale pvp when you die it's entirely your fault and in big battles you make excuse " oh noes they were more than me " right ? I mean man your so wrong off the track.

That's bullshit and you know it. Every frontal assault with swarms is a gamble. Every. Single. One. You don't need mad skills to run up to the enemy, spend your AP and if you're alive heal and do that again. There's a multitude of scenarios like that and every single thing that demands player skills in large battle is an element that comes from small battles. The only thing large battles add is formations (which are bullshit and encourage camping) and that random factor I was talking about (lots and lots of frontal clashes that are won by people who have more luck in terms of damage).

It's actually a challenge to maneuver with 20 people as good as 5 people that's why it takes more skill , goddammit. I think you haven't played with msh.

I think msh would be amused if he heard that. Also msh doesn't really like swarms, just ask him why.

I haven't seen what ? You know you haven't seen me 1 vs 4 guys , i'm basicly starting to talk like you. None of that is a viable argument.

You're sounding like a little kid that feels threatened somebody just might take those swarms away. Newsflash, there's hardly a player that really likes this style of play, you're a (very vocal I admit) minority.

I quoted you to answer you. The same techniques for movement and engagement , the pvp was different overall people had a completly different experience , your are in denial with your own arguments man.

And you know how it was and felt because...?

Still i don't see any strong arguments , don't care man how experienced you are then.

To be honest the results of that poll you can see at the top of this page are a pretty strong argument.

So go find another game. This is no "hurr durr I click you first, me better!!1!!" (no offense, but the combat itself is rather simple). There is much more possibilities with every new player included, if you can imagine only that the more they are, the better they can rush, it's a little sad. On contrary with just few people around it's more about random generator, regrouping from respawn, etc. Clearly artificial limitations and not "skill". Though would you really butcher the game combat system to make it faster? It's almost unique to have game where combat is based on positioning and not egos.

Combat is not simple, it's pretty realistic when you think about it in terms of lethality and the very real impact of morale and coordination on the outcome. Heck, I talked about it with the lieutenant in the armed forces and he said it emulates every single facet of the real thing (scouting, logistics, mopping up, communications, procedures, even how the engagement flows). The problem is that what is lethal for single players is not enough to stop a swarm. That's why in small scale PvP you get modern tactics (delicious and pretty friggin' complicated) and in large scale PvP you get musket-era tactics with them sniper rifles being muskets and bazookas being some hilariously underpowered grenades. Besides the maps are what they are and while they can accomodate complicated maneuvres executed by two squads of 5-10 people, they become a "little" crowded when we're talking 20-30ish. That's why with swarm battles you more often than not end up with two masses of people mindlessly bashing at each other until one of them is dead or flees. I don't really understand your hurr-durring about combat being based on positioning and not egos, nobody's calling for making it more like Quake 3, it's just that very large swarms don't really work that well in gameplay terms for reasons outlined above. If we had better anti-crowd weapons (like C4 or those Avengers from session 2 that could kill 4 people in 2 bursts) it wouldn't be as bad as it is right now, but I don't think the devs like having weapons that lethal around.

[Xaern]

Here's my idea.

Have every town have a safe period for an in-game week after being captured, during which militia will respawn every five minutes or so and the town control clock will be longer if you decide to take it during the safe period, because folks just don't appreciate so many people wrestling for control of their town.

After said safe period the militia will no longer respawn and the TC clock will be normal again, the only benefit of the lessened security is increasingly better rewards the longer you manage to hold the town.

For fans of roleplay I suggest a town tolerance system. Simply put, the town will compare the amount of players killed by gang members without provocation to the amount of players who trade, talk to NPCs, and just generally hang out.

If the amount of players killed by gang members without provocation is higher than the amount of players allowed to go about their business then the town will become unhappy, and the town control counter will be shortened for the next gang that decides to take the town, perhaps the militia will receive penalties due to the unhappy town.

A happy town however, (Frequent player activity and less unprovoked deaths) will have a somewhat extended TC counter and the Militia will do their jobs better.

I am assuming that militia will be nerfed severely and not drop loot, otherwise this suggestion is foolish.

Anyways I'm sure we can take my idea and everyone else's and come up with something exciting, but less overpowered.

[T-888]

That's bullshit and you know it. Every frontal assault with swarms is a gamble. Every. Single. One. You don't need mad skills to run up to the enemy, spend your AP and if you're alive heal and do that again. There's a multitude of scenarios like that and every single thing that demands player skills in large battle is an element that comes from small battles. The only thing large battles add is formations (which are bullshit and encourage camping) and that random factor I was talking about (lots and lots of frontal clashes that are won by people who have more luck in terms of damage).

It's not a gamble always if your know what your doing it's always considered how much the risk is of a frontal assault your speaking like you have never town controled maybe you haven't long enough so that you dont remember , large battles are more than just wasting AP and taking cover you don't want to see the teamplay aspect in big battles that is more complicated and intesnive than in small and again i repeat myself do you actually listen ? So your the narrow-minded child man big battles have everything that small battles have to offer and more , you just can't accept it.
 

I think msh would be amused if he heard that. Also msh doesn't really like swarms, just ask him why.

Yes he would be amused , but since he likes challenges i think he would agree maybe he will add his 2 cents. Btw were talking about 10-20 people it's not really a swarm for me just usual TC , such amount of players is possible to control and make tactics and all if the leader is good and if most of the players know what they have to do , but hey there is where the actual skill comes and is needed , i think you don't understand that too.

You're sounding like a little kid that feels threatened somebody just might take those swarms away. Newsflash, there's hardly a player that really likes this style of play, you're a (very vocal I admit) minority.

You ignore many of my arguments , newsflash with people like you it's actually impossible to discuss anything. There are plenty of people that likes big battles , like everyone who participates in them and hey i think it's almost half the server if not more still i told this before but yeah you ignored that and start to talk in circles.

And you know how it was and felt because...?
To be honest the results of that poll you can see at the top of this page are a pretty strong argument.

Now you don't make any sense man , you will most probably start talking complete garbage now

[Sarakin]

If you played before, you would know that any possible pvp action happened always in the last few minutes of each TC window, not 2 hours, and it's based on gameplay experience from 3rd session and not mine or your imagination. Speaking about 2 hours of pure action is ridiculous for anyone who played more than one session.

This is true and it could be fixed by few adjustments:
-if someone starts the timer and defend it, the TC window will end
-if attackers are killed while defending, the town owners can expect more attacks until the end of TC window

Problem was mostly with taking town and going on world map, which shouldnt be problem anymore. With the former mechanic, it was common to see that timer stretched even an hour after the end of TC window due to constant retaking of the city.