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Total Members Voted: 96

[Nice_Boat]

It's not a gamble always if your know what your doing it's always considered how much the risk is of a frontal assault your speaking like you have never town controled maybe you haven't long enough so that you dont remember , large battles are more than just wasting AP and taking cover you don't want to see the teamplay aspect in big battles that is more complicated than in small , so your the narrow-minded child man big battles have everything that small battles have to offer and more , you just can't accept it.

Why am I talking to you again? You compare stuff you don't know anything about to stuff you know very little about, you keep calling people who don't share your ridiculous point of view names and you seem to believe you're the new incarnation of Napoleon with an understanding of tactics so deep the poor plebeians like me can't even begin to scratch the surface. The truth, however, is that you don't know brahmin shit about how good and tactical this game can get and prefer to keep your simplistic swarm crap in it despite the fact that the game obviously can't accomodate this number of people fighting on a single map.

Here, maneuver this:


... and there are two spheres this large on a single map. And the maps are often flat, without a lot of terrain to break the LOS. And you can't coordinate a lot of people as well as you could coordinate a few people, so the spheres are sluggish and are mostly incapable of complicated and/or immediate movement. And the movement is restricted because don't stand near grids lol. So you basically end up with boring, repetitive crap that's determined by who scores better hits and who brings more people to the party unless someone does something brilliant and the remaining 19 people don't mess it up, which happens like 2 times out of 50. If you compare it with how demanding and dynamic small scale combat is... there really is no comparison.

[Kilgore]

You are wasting time trying to explain simple things to some random pawn of a swarm. Totally pointless, whatever you say he keeps answering "this is not a strong argument for me", while he doesn't supply this thread with anything useful.

For me, swarm battles (or "large group battles" (c) T-888 hehe) are shitty because they happen not very frequently and there is too much of waiting involved: gathering people, planning, regrouping just for few minutes of fight (there were rarely battles that lasted more than several minutes). Small team pvp is always better because there is more action and it doesn't get boring after a couple of days.

Remember that whatever changes are made to TC, swarms will always have better chances (and it's logical), but there is absolutely no reason to support them any further (by making time windows, for example).

[JovankaB]

Scrap all Town Control mechanics, everything: militia, TC NPC, magic loot box, TC pipboys statuses, all of it.
It's not about real controlling town anyway in most cases.

Bring crafting features back to unguarded towns. Scrap external farming locations like waterworks and factories in bases.

External locations make sense if they are interesting. Farming chem components in waterworks isn't.
It's not really dangerous either. It's just nuisance.

Factories in bases are good for bots and boring. Only utility stuff like waterpipes and workbenches should be kept.

[dskpnk]

Here is my point of wiev about actual TC :

- Nerf militia

few suggestions:
- reduce maximum number of milita to [6-8], [4] after obtaining control.
- fix of bug with adding mercenaries to militia during timer.
- fix in 'gear check' - i can bet, every gang had a lot of problems with taking control with RL's and LSW's.

- TC timer to 10-15 min
- Reward every 30 min
- please no time window to take town, something like that seems cool :

How to fix current TC a bit:

1. Remove TC timer.
2. A faction can take the town anytime (gear/number check applies), but the control is changed to "None" after they leave the town. For example: 6 people needed to capture the town, but if at any given time there will be less than 2 of them present in the town, the control is lost. The check for faction members could happen each minute, not a big deal I guess;
3. When there is no controlling faction, the militia acts like typical NPCs in the town (hostile only if attacked). Militia doesn't attack the team that wants to capture the town,

if they don't attack NPC and have karma to enter the town


4. The reward is given more frequently (let's say, 15 or 30 minutes) but only when the town is controlled by a faction.
5. Remove TC zones. So, if some gang would be smart enough to capture the town and hide in a small room while waiting for the reward, you could come with your team and take the town back from them.

- TC zone only for TC timer, when faction control the city they can hide/RP everywhere in the city but they have to be at least minimum reqierement number of player/gear to keep control/rewards according to the requierement of cities.
- Make a no capture time after faction control the city, for example if the faction keep town 30min (15min timer + 30 min in the city) they have a no capture time of 15-30 min for the next time they will take the city. With a maximum no capture time of 45 min. During no capture time militia act just like normal npc (if u have bad karma they attack u, if you have good karma they protect you), after that no capture time militia won't protect players and just act like normals npc.
 - Increasing rewards

Seems good to me ! Because :

How to fix current TC a bit:

This way, we would have following issues fixed:
- the need of time windows, completely;
- small-squad runs taking all towns while other teams are sleeping; it would give them absolutely nothing;
- taking the town only for pipboy status and locker reward, as you would have to actually be present in the town;
- towns that are controlled by a faction but no one stays there;
- partially swarms; well, you could always swarm the controlling team, but remember that hardly anyone can keep a swarm present in the town for a longer time (as opposed to TC time windows);
- probably easier to implement, test and balance.

In my opinion it's stupid that the town can be controlled with no gang member present in the town, showing up only occasionally for the reward and when somebody starts pvp beacon (capturing).

Holy shit let's do this !
 

[LagMaster]

how about diplomacy, a speech char(or alt) must convince some people to join there couse to reduce the timer to maxumum 20 min(25 min from start) and if that pearson will think over it(otehr faction will come with speech char to talk) the timer will be increased and if the timer reaches back to 25 min the TC will be over and the past gang will still have the city
so, important NPCs will have to decide what they think of the new gang(3 choises: no opinion, for the atackers agains the atackers) and if they thing against the atackers, they can't have an opinion change, so it will be +0, -1min, +1 min
killing someone with lesser than TC gear rec outside TC zone will increas the timer by 1 min and killing someonhe with gear that is in the faction defending allready the town it will decreas the timer by 1 min

so if an atacking faction will atack the city, they need about 5 min to take it,


now if the defending faction do not send someone inside the TC zone, the town will be under no controll(the defenders don't come means they are not worthy for defending) and they can't controll it for 3 rl days
also if an atacking faction fails to take the town, they can't TC that town for 3 rl days

[SEGA_RUS]

i think this session is most balanced
we know how in BH kill ALL militia by 2 players
timer is necessary to protect the city from other gang, at least for try in this
about adding mercs\slaves - it's most expensive but very effective method to weed good militia from bad
about TC some towns in certain time - usa and russia is big country with big amount of timezones instead france(for example)
about TC with 8 militia - it's a chanсe for 3 people to take a town(with speacher of course)

[maszrum]

Now I'll post a bit different approach to TC, similar to what was in 2nd session but improved.

1. Remove TC timer.
2. A faction can take the town anytime (gear/number check applies), but the control is changed to "None" after they leave the town. For example: 6 people needed to capture the town, but if at any given time there will be less than 2 of them present in the town, the control is lost. The check for faction members could happen each minute, not a big deal I guess;
3. When there is no controlling faction, the militia acts like typical NPCs in the town (hostile only if attacked). Militia doesn't attack the team that wants to capture the town.
4. The reward is given more frequently (let's say, 15 or 30 minutes) but only when the town is controlled by a faction.
5. Remove TC zones. So, if some gang would be smart enough to capture the town and hide in a small room while waiting for the reward, you could come with your team and take the town back from them.

we still have beta testing phease and its seems not that hard to implement and nobody proposed anything better.. so why not?

i dont really like the "no timer idea" for two resons - attackers will have huge advantage and most of the gangs are not that active to refreshing pipboy all day long. some of players are in game some others doing their shit, when timer starting eveyrone is loging into the game. will be nice to have some notification, maybe even by radio (local scouts


another probem is reward. every gang is risking loss of equipment, so i sugest some small refund if gang succesed. i realize some players dont like the magical tcbox and stuff apearing form the sky but comeon its a comouter game that need to be funny and worth of risk.

maybe such model?
- growing number of caps in every city
- growing number of random ammo, depends of city [klamath - tier1, BH for tier3 for example]
- growing number of drugs, depends of city
- random item/s - i would like to see even a gauss pistol, but chances to get that pistol shoul be very small.


about timer. nobody like waits, especaily large gangs
5 players = 10minutes
with each additional player time decreases for example -30sec. smallest possible value - 5minutes

[dskpnk]

another probem is reward. every gang is risking loss of equipment, so i sugest some small refund if gang succesed. i realize some players dont like the magical tcbox and stuff apearing form the sky but comeon its a comouter game that need to be funny and worth of risk.

maybe such model?
- growing number of caps in every city
- growing number of random ammo, depends of city [klamath - tier1, BH for tier3 for example]
- growing number of drugs, depends of city
- random item/s - i would like to see even a gauss pistol, but chances to get that pistol shoul be very small.

Yes we need to see more "rare" stuff ! Bored to use sniper/avenger/lsw/rocket for 2 years !

[T-888]

You are wasting time trying to explain simple things to some random pawn of a swarm. Totally pointless, whatever you say he keeps answering "this is not a strong argument for me", while he doesn't supply this thread with anything useful.

For me, swarm battles (or "large group battles" (c) T-888 hehe) are shitty because they happen not very frequently and there is too much of waiting involved: gathering people, planning, regrouping just for few minutes of fight (there were rarely battles that lasted more than several minutes). Small team pvp is always better because there is more action and it doesn't get boring after a couple of days.

Remember that whatever changes are made to TC, swarms will always have better chances (and it's logical), but there is absolutely no reason to support them any further (by making time windows, for example).

So you think i should just blindly believe in your knowledge of the game if you don't actually tell me something that will change my mind ? It's a simple principle you don't understand

Small scale pvp has more action ? I think you forgot. See pic below.

The truth, however, is that you don't know brahmin shit about how good and tactical this game can get and prefer to keep your simplistic swarm crap in it despite the fact that the game obviously can't accomodate this number of people fighting on a single map.
Here, maneuver this:

Okay btw it's only killing militia but it takes some tactic to do it , especially when the town is guarded by enemy forces you think it's so simple always right ? You forget about some things like mercs spawning , reentering in a different town part to flank the enemy , splitting your team and then attacking , scouting , formations , much of that just doesn't exist in small scale pvp.



I guess you haven't been in reno in a while witch is like the only place to get small scale pvp and that is just simple fast skirmishes , that usually ends much more faster than big battles or most of the battle few survivers of both team's are buthuging a wall to wait for reinforcements that actually happens quite a lot in big battles , nothing more your trying to convince me of something that actually doesn't exist , you may theory craft the shit you want if it doesn't really happen in game.

You are talking to me because you have ignored much of what i have said.

... and there are two spheres this large on a single map. And the maps are often flat, without a lot of terrain to break the LOS. And you can't coordinate a lot of people as well as you could coordinate a few people, so the spheres are sluggish and are mostly incapable of complicated and/or immediate movement. And the movement is restricted because don't stand near grids lol. So you basically end up with boring, repetitive crap that's determined by who scores better hits and who brings more people to the party unless someone does something brilliant and the remaining 19 people don't mess it up, which happens like 2 times out of 50. If you compare it with how demanding and dynamic small scale combat is... there really is no comparison.

Why do you pull out scenarios ? We were actually talking in general didn't you notice that ?

And you can't coordinate a lot of people as well as you could coordinate a few people

We were talking about actual skill required and i told you that you can coordinate 20 as good as 5 people , that's why it is much much harder and takes skill but ofcourse you ignored that , so i will ignore your thoughts too

Man if you would actually read and answer me not only start talking about a different point of view of the same shit. Can you stop over exaggerating the complexity of small scale pvp , it's simple skirmishes omg.

Now i'm starting to talk in circles , it means you don't listen to me , pointless to discuss anything with you.

[Black Key]

I agree with the general approach of Killgore.

I am for a week without TC like Killgore, Sakin and others.

Otherwise, this is my approach that would, i think promote the RP without killing the TC, help those who wanna make something in the city after the TC time (I agree with Xaern among others) and those who are a little bit fan of diplomacy.

Timezone:
I am against it because it removes all suspense and it allows those who took control of the city from being present only for short periods during which they know they will be attacked. I'm also against it because we will also have to choose times zones during wich there will be more players online and those time zones are also the time that prefer those who would like to do some RP. And systematically, there will be battles...

Timer:
Dont suppress it but...
- I joined Berko on the idea of ​​adding weapons. Is a 223 pistol more impressive than a rocket launcher?
- If the sheriff is not impressed by the players who want to take control of the town, he attacks with the militia the players trying to take control of the town.

Keeping control of the town:
- I agree with the fact that a minimum number of players should be presents in the city during a minimum of time and daily to keep the control.
Advantages:
- The maximum number of town which could be controlled by a team would be directly dependent of the number of players in that team
- It would encourage teams to recruit players
- It would avoids the empty cities (I take control of the city, I forget it, but I empty the chest). It is not normal that a player who starts the game and goes in a city never meet a player from the team that controls it).

Militia. General idea: you want a good militia ? There's a price and you've got to protect/help it
- The militia uses the stuff put in the chest by the team that control the city
- The militia is paid with the caps present in the chest
- When a militien is killed, it can be looted
- The longer a militian remains alive, the longer he fights without dying, the more experienced he is but the more expensive he is. His incomes are growing with him.
- If there is no caps in the chest when it's time to pay the militia, the militia resigns
Advantages
- The type of militia that spawns depends on what's in the chest (you want a gauss militian ?)
Other:
- I like the idea of Berko for the functions of the militia (attack the thieves, warn the victim, draw weapon and radio warning of the players having the control of the city)

Awards. General idea: the more the city is prosperous and secure, the more the team controling it receives gifts
The incomes and the number of volunteers for the militia could depend of:
- The time spend in the city by players of the team having the control
- The number of NPCs killed (bankers, doctors, sheriff, children, etc.).
- The number of players killed in the city
- The amount of purchases and sales with the NPC merchants
- The number of interactions with the characters involve in quests
Others:
- GMs could provide additional rewards if the team controlling the city organizes events in the city to attract people (melee fightings, public auctions, etc.)
- Contents of boxes suitable for cities and quantity depending on what is happening. Example: Redding / BH, high quality minerals/irons but the number depends on the number of deaths in the mine. If the mine is unsafe, the NPCs do not exploit it (or less) and there is nothing (less) in the chest. It will encourage those who control the city to protect the mine.

General effects on TC and on the game:
- If one team takes the control and leaves, quickly, there is no more money in the chest, no more militia, and those who wish to take the control of the city and wish to do something in it will do it easily. It joins the idea of ​​RavenousRat.
- If the players are still in the city after taking the control of it, but kill everyone, same result.
- Players who are involved in diplomacy and get a peace treaty for their city will be rewarded

Other ideas:
- If the city incomes go below a certain level (lack of activity, too many deaths, etc.) for several days, the people could rebell and attack the team controlling the city and the team could lose the control (status none or a new rebel status). The next team who will try to take control of the city could have a bonus.
- The longer a team is controlling a city, the more the NPC and the militia are loyal, and the more difficult it is to take control of the town.

[Nice_Boat]

I guess you haven't been in reno in a while witch is like the only place to get small scale pvp and that is just simple fast skirmishes , that usually ends much more faster than big battles or most of the battle few survivers of both team's are buthuging a wall to wait for reinforcements that actually happens quite a lot in big battles , nothing more your trying to convince me of something that actually doesn't exist , you may theory craft the shit you want if it doesn't really happen in game.

Reno is different and always was like that due to lack of rewards and incentive for remaining inside and the mostly featureless terrain. You don't know what does or does not happen in the game with small scale TC because you're a newbie and you never played that. Your conceptions are unrealistic and wrong.

Why do you pull out scenarios ? We were actually talking in general didn't you notice that ?

And you can't coordinate a lot of people as well as you could coordinate a few people

And the space a swarm occupies is a general thing. The evidence is irrefutable, you can't maneuver with more than 15 people because there's not enough space on the F2 maps to do that. Even when you detach a squad for a specific task it often is impossible to surprise the enemy because the LOS of a swarm spans almost the entire length of the map. That's why practically every single swarm battle looks pretty much the same. It's like trying to play chess on a 4x4 board. To be honest I wouldn't have that much against swarms if those battles were to be fought on some new, much larger maps designed with that specific purpose in mind... I don't know, maybe the devs would consider making a domination mode map or two for 20-30 people per side? The only map that's big enough in terms of size seems to be Klamath, but it somehow still devolves into a frontal slugfest at trapper town due to the placement of its capture zone and some bottlenecks that make fighting there easier for the defenders.

We were talking about actual skill required and i told you that you can coordinate 20 as good as 5 people , that's why it is much much harder and takes skill but ofcourse you ignored that , so i will ignore your thoughts too

That just goes to show that you don't know anything about commanding people aside from "msh does it and he does it well". Well guess what, msh would be even better with commanding 5 or 8 people and would probably be absolutely stellar if he didn't have to deal with inexperienced arrogant people like you. Go ahead and ask him what he likes better... oh wait, you won't because you know you wouldn't like the answer and it would make you look stupid. Oh, and I know that because I did command teams of various sizes, from 5 to 35-45. All in all you're the one who is theorycrafting and even worse, your theories are all wrong.

Man if you would actually read and answer me not only start talking about a different point of view of the same shit.\

Now i'm starting to talk in circles , it means you don't listen to me , pointless to discuss anything with you.

Your point of view is simply wrong. I proved it wrong using a friggin' picture, among other things. There's no reason for anyone to listen to you and take you seriously if you ignore the most important arguments of your opponents in the discussion, really.

[seb910]

nice_boat, kilgore, t-888, dskpnk this is a topic for suggestions then stop fu..ing flooding it and shut your mouth. Nobody wants to read about your personal experience. Let the other people speak. Stop dominating it and favorite few ideas.

[Nice_Boat]

nice_boat, kilgore, t-888, dskpnk this is a topic for suggestions then stop fu..ing flooding it and shut your mouth. Nobody wants to read about your personal experience. Let the other people speak. Stop dominating it and favorite few ideas.

What's wrong with supporting your ideas with evidence, even anecdotal? Any discussion that tests people's views is better and more helpful than a bunch of random, unconnected suggestions being thrown around. Ghosthack wanted to know if people would like to change the current TC, it seems that a majority wants just that so the question is "how?" - that's what this discussion is all about.

[seb910]

You see? You are very easy to provoke. Maybe you are right but your were talking about who play longer this game like it makes any matter. After it I don`t know what your were talk about cuz I`ve stopped reading your posts. Do you think GMs wants to read it? That should be short, clear suggestion not huge discuss about shit. Don`t reply we need to avoid trolling .

[Kilgore]

....

Well, the more complicated idea is, less chance that devs will implement it and even lesser that it won't be bugged heavily. I'd vote for something simple so it won't be abused during next session - and we know that even small things introduced into the game resulted often in a major abuse (killing town controller with militia, adding mercs to militia etc., bluesuit runs through all of the towns).