Author Topic: Armors and clothing  (Read 275284 times)

Offline Surf

  • Moderator
  • это моё.
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #585 on: September 14, 2011, 05:44:10 am »
Create an account on the wiki and we can give the needed editing rights.

Please give him local (for the 3d subforum I mean) mod rights aswell.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #586 on: September 17, 2011, 02:31:52 pm »
A number of hats :

(200% Zoom)
From Left to Right : Welding Mask (HaraldX); Hockey Mask, Top Hat with Skull, Top Hat America, Spiked Helmet (White Tiger)

Some of them may need moving / resizing / adjusting etc - for example, the hockey mask looks in the wrong place from this angle, so maybe needs moving higher up to compensate (it's actually directly in front of the face, although it doesn't look that way). I've not added an extra specular layer on any of them - they're all "as is" for now.

[edit]
Files zipped and uploaded here :
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=I367K2B0
Also in Graf's 3D repo in source file folders.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 02:37:48 pm by Luther Blissett »

Offline Graf

  • Moderator
  • "Next Day" developer
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #587 on: September 17, 2011, 04:33:02 pm »
This looks even better than I expected. Great work.

P.S. I'm going to upload some latest misc. items today to the repo as well. It will be good, if you could test it in the game, at least to estimate how much time is required for each model.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 04:35:14 pm by Graf »

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #588 on: September 17, 2011, 07:10:43 pm »
I'm not yet sure how the misc items work in game - I think I could get one "in hand", but couldn't test a floor / inventory thing until I understand how the game objects are linked to the model objects etc (or some other way of placing a model in game). Don't know if anyone's had a look at this stuff yet or not.

If there's an example one in there already somewhere, I'd be able to test things by swapping the files over or looking at the rigging. If not, it may be a case of letting Karpov implement one hand/floor object first, then I can look at what he's done and learn from there (mostly by copying & pasting everything and changing the bits needed).

Offline Haraldx

  • This forum... The memories... The history...
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #589 on: September 18, 2011, 01:50:28 am »
Woah, my welding mask looks even better than I thought it would look!

Oh, and, yes, I'm still working on my school projects (just 2 more to go) about after the 26th I will be available to do something useful for this project's sake.
I still can be reached over e-mail if you somehow need anything from me. Don't see a reason why you would, but if you do, e-mail remains the safest bet, as I do not visit this forum reliably anymore.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #590 on: September 18, 2011, 03:04:44 am »
Woah, my welding mask looks even better than I thought it would look!

It looks even better when combined with a more attractive looking armour :)

Anyway, hats are actually surprisingly easy to rig : Move it to right place, shift, resize, then attach ALL the vertices to the "head bone" = done. Unfortunately, some of the armours aren't quite so straightforward - the worst ones seeming to be those long coats that some idiot (me) decided to make :P

Duster Fail

This is using the extra skeleton from the NCR Combat Ranger guy - though it's proved to be quite difficult to get right. If you look on the images above, you should notice :
- Shoulders from main body "popping through" (shirt is white, so it's very clear).
- Big black patches in the folds of the coat
- Other bits sticking out all over the place
- Rogue shadows
- I completely forgot to attach the boots
- The upper section of cloth over the shoulders doesn't fold right

A fair bit of this is due to the original model (so it's still my fault :) ). Firstly,  though I might be able to fix the shoulder bit with adjusting the rigging, it might be better to just move the faces a tiny bit further away from the main body. Alternately, as the arms are completely covered, I could "disable the subsets" on the arm, meaning that the arms on the main hero body are made invisible - so they won't stick through the coat.

The black patches are model related. The inside surface of the coat is too low poly - it doesn't "bend" in enough places - so when the outer surface bends round, the inner surface is unable to bend in the middle, and ends up sticking through, inside out. This should be quite easy to fix, but is a good lesson in how not to do low-poly modelling :)

Other bits will mostly need fixing in a similar manner to the shoulder - though the "extra material" on the shoulders may need remodelling quite a bit, or adding over the top as a separate object. One thing notable is that the "coat blowing" animation currently only covers idle, walk and run - in all other animations, there is no extra animation for the tails. This means they basically "stay still" during punch, shoot, fall over etc, because they're not rigged to any bones on the normal skeleton. Unfortunately this means that they will often end up clashing with the legs in some of these animations. There's no easy solution to this, other than to add the "tail modification" to a lot of the rest of the animations. Also, the texture will need quite a bit of work to look right in game - it heavily uses "painted shadows", and these are a little obsolete now that the engine shadows are working much better.

Hooded Rags partial Win

This one's a very similar model, except it's a lot more closed round the front, so I've treated it a bit more like a robe, and kept the bottom half attached to the legs i.e. rather than rigging it to the extra coat tails, I simply rigged it to the main skeleton. After a lot of messing around with the vertex weights on the legs, it's nearly there. There's a couple of minor clashes in the run animation, but I think I can solve this by changing the balance between how some of the vertices are weighted. There's also a slight problem with the arms slipping out of the sleeves, but again, that's quite easy to fix.

Obviously, it doesn't have the coolness of the coat tails flying back when running, or blowing in the wind, but it's almost usable. As with the previous, the texture needs quite a lot of work to blend in better. Certainly needs to be a lot brighter overall.

Offline Lexx

  • Rotator
  • Mexican Apple Thief
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #591 on: September 18, 2011, 09:48:18 am »
Question is, if it's so hard to have a cool flying coat, etc. maybe this shouldn't be done so much yet? At least I personally would be fine with the robe-version, especially if it speeds up the rest of the progress. Can't look worse than original 2D robe animations. :p

Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #592 on: September 18, 2011, 01:56:02 pm »
Wow! Hooded rags and hats looks awesome! Duster coat is also great, but it needs some serious work you have mentioned. I think we might postpone it after everything else would be done. And by everything else I mean - things which are crucial to reach the "playable" milestone.
Don't call me your brother
'cause I ain't your fucking brother.
We fell from different cunts,
and your skins an ugly color!

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #593 on: September 18, 2011, 05:00:11 pm »
Yeah, agreed. If I can get the robelike one to work, I'll do the same with the duster for the time being. We can have a "slightly odd looking, but usable" one for now, then an improved one at a later date.

Incidentally, I think the coat tails one would be much easier to rig once the model is set up correctly - but the extra animations needed are pretty low priority when compared to some of the other stuff that needs doing. I think a lot of the problems with the rigging can be solved by increasing the number of polys in the lower half of the original model - basically making sure it has enough places to bend. Most of the problems with "bits sticking through other bits" is because the bones want to bend the polygon faces in the middle - but because they can only bend at polygon edges, you get this "intersection" (like shown in diagram below).

Of course, trying the more difficult ones is part of the learning - for example, before trying this, I'd never bothered about the "inside" of the coats - they're just a few very large triangles, but obviously that can cause problems like shown in this diagram. If I can get these working, then everything else will be much easier, and I'll be better at spotting (and if necessary, correcting) potential problems with models. Additionally, it should be just enough understanding to start putting the basic rigging tutorials together. There's still some major gaps in my knowledge in this area though - but I suppose that as with improving the models, the tutorials can be improved in future as well.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #594 on: September 20, 2011, 05:41:39 am »
Apologies for double post - different subject (but still related to armours / clothing).

No major update with those coats yet, but a few screenies from some unrelated test stuff. Been having a bit of a mess around with texture colours. These are just minor colour tweaking from SmartCheetah's textures (using the new lighting setup with Karpov's skin specular), then shrank to 128x128px and with a bit of noise added.

I had to make them a lot more orange to look closer to the game sprites. The actual skin texture file looks like a really bad "orange fake tan", but it seems to look about right in game (on my monitor, at least).


Female in Leather Jacket; Tribal


Tribals walking

It's obviously not quite right yet - but it doesn't stick out so obviously. I don't think we're quite able to play "Where's Wally / Waldo / Walter" with the 3D models yet, but I think we're hopefully past the stage where people think the 3D work is "disgusting" i.e. :

[...]and the 3D is just disgusting, and u will never match the sprites 3d with 2d it's just illogical. Most of people just don't want 3d because the game will loose the climate and many others[...]

The coat fixes will be a little bit yet, because I have to make some changes on the original models to get them working right. I know what needs doing though - and it's next on my 'list', but it just won't be too quick. After those are done, I'll start putting info up on the Wiki, to make it easier for others to help out.

[edit]
Test skin texture uploaded here. You'll see what I mean about the orangeness.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 09:24:40 am by Luther Blissett »

Offline Surf

  • Moderator
  • это моё.
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #595 on: September 20, 2011, 05:47:12 am »
Wow, that really looks good already. It took quite a moment to see the actual 3d model of the leather girl in the bar. Nice! Can't wait for that dither/pixelisation filter.  ;D

Offline Lexx

  • Rotator
  • Mexican Apple Thief
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #596 on: September 20, 2011, 09:22:27 am »
That's a really big step, imo. Needed a few seconds too until I've noticed the 3D models-- mainly due to them being not as pixelated as the original graphics. Especially the female in leather jacket looks very fitting already.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #597 on: September 20, 2011, 09:46:22 am »
A few seconds is good. We'll try and double that next month :P

As said, if we can get a filter to do the noise / pixel / palette stuff, I think we're on the way to making something that is close enough to not upset anyone's eyes. It may never be perfect, but I genuinely think we can get near enough to let the 3D models walk around next to the sprites and look close enough to maintain the "in universe graphic style".

What is really nice is knowing that once a couple of hair models have been implemented, we could switch that female leather armour character between the green mohawk, red ponytail or the bob hairstyle in a second. With an extra texture or two, that could just as easily be a green ponytail or red mohawk - or beyond that, we could switch the underclothes for an "Ian style" blue jeans and white shirt underneath "just like that".

I have, of course picked two of the more straightforward ones in this example - and they're only on "two seconds good enough" for now, but between everyone here, I'm sure we can get "four seconds good enough" and eventually "eight seconds good enough" :)

Getting things such as the metal armour to the same state will be quite a task, but I'm also certain it is possible.

Offline LagMaster

  • No. 1 Topic Starter
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #598 on: September 20, 2011, 01:24:45 pm »
may i suggest to add in the texture the six-pack of the tribal

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Armors and clothing
« Reply #599 on: September 20, 2011, 01:31:11 pm »
Yeah - there's quite a few bits of fine detail like that which would need doing at some point. Same for muscles on neck, shoulder and chest. Not sure whether such things are better done with normal / specular maps (letting the engine shadow / highlight deal with it) or whether they should be painted onto the texture.