Other > Suggestions

Town Control

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avv:

--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on February 06, 2011, 06:45:11 PM ---I dont believe that it is the players that are to share view of NPCs, its more that the NPCs should share the view of players
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But this would mean that we'd have for example vault city randomly killing players in their own city, or camping unguarded mines.

Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: Lexx on February 06, 2011, 05:39:24 PM ---GM controlled factions are planned since the very first day. So far it has not been possible due to the lack of various other prerequisites.

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GM controlled/supported factions is a concept, not a game mechanic. If you talk about missing prerequisites, you're in my opinion missing the point. The point being that such factions could (and probably should) be more or less very much like the current gangs, but with some designated themes, prerequisites for candidates and rewards for members. You could implement it right now in a matter of minutes, you could've done that 6 months ago - adding the "NCR Rangers" or "Enclave Squadron Alpha" gang name and a faction terminal in an existing location isn't exactly rocket science, same with selecting talented individuals to make it work. Adding another layer of PvP mechanics like zone control or whatever you're working on is not going to change the basic fact that the GM team lacks people capable of successful leadership and well-meaning interaction with the entire playerbase, or even construing believable conflicts/scenarios inside the gameworld framework.

To make this critique a bit more constructive, the closest you ever got to achieving something meaningful was Izual's effort at creating the NCR Army, but there were obvious mistakes that made the project ultimately flop:
- the faction had no persistent impact on the game world; it was more of a player driven special encounter than a group with actual goal
- since there was no persistent impact, there was no long-term reward for participating, hence not enough experienced recruits
- heavy handed handling when it comes to supplies and character stats - while having everything supplied to you by ther army may be realistic, it's not a good game mechanic when everyone else has to work for his stuff; this contributed heavily to the general perception of the Army being that it's an abuse of the game world - hence even less experienced recruits
- heavy handed handling when it comes to player discipline - again, while having people parade on the base square and go through basic drills and chores may be realistic, it is not enjoyable gameplay - even less people willing to join
- as much as this may hurt, it's a fact - generally incompetent handling during combat situations which combined with "cheated" stats and equipment led to the Army having a rather terrible reputation among normal gangs - they were either the bringers of sudden death or free loot supply, ang given their lack of persistent and predictable goals they couldn't be interacted with on a meaningful level by other factions (you couldn't ambush them, you couldn't fight them over something important or prestiguous - as I've said, just a really weird random encounter)

Successful GM-driven, NPC based factions should share the following qualities:
- be allowed to take part in TC to create meaningful, persistent interaction with both gangs and other NPC factions
- have clearly defined, openly stated goals and boundaries in which they operate
- take active, roleplay-based actions in the server's faction diplomacy environment to pursue the aforementioned goals; this means being active on IRC, forums and the server itself to actually be competitive when going against player based gangs; leaders behaving out of character in this context (no matter where - IRC, forums or server) would be completely unacceptable
- perhaps publish a monthly "faction review" with immediate goals stated, to make their behaviour transparent and predictable and to reflect their more "open" nature (this could exclude the more in-depth intrigues and secret alliances, which could be revealed after they stop being relevant) - this would have an additional effect of creating a persistent server history and improving the general immersion
- faction members should generally get their exp, stats, supplies etc. on their own; important members would get faction-specific hi-tech hardware in extremely limited quantities (like, 1 or 2 PAs monthly for 5 guys or something like that, a bit more weapons - make it more of a sacred relic than everyday occurence on the battlefield, just like Gauss Pistols right now or CA a few wipes ago when it was uncraftable) - the rules for getting supplies should be public, dynamic and generally subject to constant playerbase review and discussions to keep it all balanced
- while important member and faction leader in-game discipline as far playing "in-character" should be maintained, normal members should be allowed to act more or less at will with some very basic constraints not to scare people away; a normal NPC faction member should be encouraged to roleplay by good leadership embodied in giving a good example and the leader maintaining the faction-specific mood, not forced by an arbitrary set of rules or some specific code of conduct
- in combat situations, good leadership and proper tactics would be a must to maintain the credibility of the faction and the spirit of competition among its members; this means using voice communication software, creating a members-only forum and doing all the things that normal gangs do; this is an absolute must or else such factions would just share NCR Army's fate in being considered extremely cheap and/or incompetent when it comes to solving tactical situations.

As you can see, all of the conditions can be fulfilled with the game mechanics we have right now, this very moment. All that is needed is a few good, competent men willing to make it happen. Heck, even placing the faction terminals inside the faction-specific WM locations wouldn't be required - it could just as well be normal basecamps with the only server-related prerequisite being the devs providing faction names for these groups.

To sum things up, FOnline 2238 is more or less a roleplaying game. A good roleplaying game session is not created by a good rulebook and rolling 2 dice instead of 6. It is created, first and foremost, by good gamemasters coming up with good stories. Consequently, introducing new functions into the 2238 server world is not going to improve the overall experience - allowing a few dedicated and competent people prove themselves at demanding jobs of leading NPC factions and writing the overall narrative of this gameworld, a narrative that can be heavily impacted by actions of gangs and perhaps even single individuals is going to work wonders.

To sum it up, it really is all about design philosophy, not about going into specifics and creating more and more complicated code while losing sight of the bigger picture. Countless examples, both pen-and paper and online prove that human-oriented approach is more effective and flexible than leaving it all to mechanics and calculations. The devs will of course choose as they please and the players will judge them on their choices. I think that the ever-diminishing server population and the rise of other FOnline projects are clearly a sign that some change is necessary.

Also, wall of text critically hits you for 3243262 points of damage.

Okram:

--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on January 20, 2011, 06:38:59 PM ---Well, in my opinion, there should be few ways to control city. I will start with 2 ideas of alternatives:

1. The town is to be captured (just like now) and is to be invested in, it will generate very little income at the beggining if any. The faction in control have to build it up, like bank, stores, crafting house, pub. Those investments will each generate the income of the town. Those things should take some time, and to reach a steady income should take maybe 4 days. The Cost of investment should return itself after lets say 5 days.

2. Town could be raided, in a way of killing all traders, bankers and who ever represents the upgraded buildings. The money gained (looted from the corpses) will be represented with lets say 2 days of income (that NPC is killed and it will take him 3 days to respawn (more days then money gained of) and start generating money towards the controlling faction again). Destroying buildings and its upgrades doesint give anything (exept maybe rep drop, if the reputation would work correctly, otherwise no point).

The idea is to allow raider factions to do what they do, instead of taking control of the town they dont really want. Allowing them to take the money, without having to take the control of the town (like raiders suppose to do). Also, the town maybe would need some supplies now and then, which would ensure that the faction that controls the town, really wants the town (maybe repairs on buildings? or killing rats in the mine would give some boost towards this and that, in other words, things that you only do if you care about the town other then just income).

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And if raiders are too weak they will always die and lose all their stuff.
And if raiders are too strong they will take over the control of town.

kttdestroyer:

--- Quote from: Surf Solar on February 06, 2011, 06:49:15 PM ---I don't care what random gang XY does an alliance with gang ABC to fight alliance 123 again. The same happened before, just under different names. Gangs aren't rooted in the Fallout universe, some atleast try it, majority is here to pwn, to random PvP. That's why you won't see GMs helping with TC stuff and the general negative attitude towards it, it's like throwing pearls before swine, even if it's a pity for the small amount of people who really want more then just the usual combat. And yeah, now you really hurt me that my "endeavours" as a GM weren't as popular in the pr0 player base as some random non fallout gangs fighting. :(
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This is an Online game, so ofcourse it will be player infuenced and in my opinion thats the beuty of it. What is the diffrence between fallout 2 Khans and North Bandits? What is the diffrence between the Lawyers and Sherrif in Redding attitude in fallout 2? How are those 2 factions not fallout universe factions when they could easly be ones as well? Its too bad both of those have to act same in the game, becouse the engine is not responsive towards factions. Its like saying, only fallout 1 and 2 factions should exist... That would leave us a lot creative options indeed. And, if you ask me, i would not play such game personally, what i love with Fonline, is the faction system (and some other things that are not often seen in other games).



--- Quote from: Surf Solar on February 06, 2011, 06:49:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on February 06, 2011, 06:45:11 PM ---I dont believe that it is the players that are to share view of NPCs, its more that the NPCs should share the view of players
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lol'd.

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? Care to be more "expainful"?


--- Quote from: Okram on February 06, 2011, 07:02:16 PM ---And if raiders are too weak they will always die and lose all their stuff.
And if raiders are too strong they will take over the control of town.

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Yes, everybody risk loosing stuff in this game mate.
Maybe they would, but they might loose cash on it, meaning, the raiding should be more risky and profitiable (raiding should be easier and quick money making, like constructing a house is easier then burning it down). What raiders dont really should have is support of the people (either NPC or Players).


--- Quote from: avv on February 06, 2011, 06:58:18 PM ---But this would mean that we'd have for example vault city randomly killing players in their own city, or camping unguarded mines.

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That is possible, thats why there must be rules of which every memeber of NPC faction has to apply to. If a Vault City member kills a Non-Ghaul / Non-Raider then he should get a minus indeed and eventually throwed out of Vault City, if he kills random players in VC then he should be throwed out straight away, either by VC leader, or by the game system...

Badger:

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