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[HertogJan]

But then the abusers would just peek in your inventory without taking anything. This would have the same effect as current abuse.

Pretending to use steal is exactly what the problem is.
Besides, they might be using the repair skill simply to scare you away from the trader.
Note that shoot & loot teams do use steal skill to check inventories.

By having a method to keep an eye on someone and certainly catch him if he tries to steal. How would that differ from running anyway? You can't steal from someone if keeps an eye on you in both cases. The only real difference would be that your char gets caught and unprotected which is only fair.

Nerving a skill to a state which makes it unusable is unfair.
There are too many people in the interesting areas to make it possible to steal.

That's another problem entirely.

Are you sure? A good shoot & loot team uses the steal skill to check inventories.

How can you say it's not about items if you are after items while stealing? You want the item, the victim wants to keep it.
The victim loses time also, maybe he was going to finish a deal with npc or player but he had to run away.
Still the victim has to be on his toes all the time, he gets no peace even if he knows who thief is. 
In addition the victory conditions aren't fair. The victim cannot put preissure on the thief the same way the thief can do to the victim. Thief can be after you forever but you can't be after him.

I said winning or losing is not about items or killing.
With a failed steal attempt the thief also loses time.
Once again, you can't stop people from grieving or abusing a skill. Why nerve a skill when people who don't put points in it choose to abuse it?

How's that any differend? You cause them troubble, that's all what counts.

Losing items counts as troubble.

It doesn't matter what you do in the end, because there are other thieves with differend motives. By pointing out that you steal from your enemies I tried to explain that stealing is like pvp. You use it to cause troubble to your enemies so it's pvp. And because it is pvp, same rules must apply to it aswell. If you can cause them troubble, they must be allowed to cause troubble to you in the same scenario at the same volume.

Using a skill like steal against someone is grieving to me.
Using it on someone to do with that skill what it's supposed to be used for is fine.
If the victim walks away, he's aware of me. No need to try again.
It's not harassment, grieving or whatever. It's making proper use of a skill.

Stealing is not pvp, that you perceive it that way is up to you.

It's not up to you to state how things are.

I stated a fact. People paying attention walk away.

Fighting or competition. That's usually how games solve things to keep everyone happy.

It's not an MMOFPS, it's an MMORPG.
There's more than 1 way to solve a problem.
You can finish both FO1 an FO2 without killing anyone.

[avv]

Nerving a skill to a state which makes it unusable is unfair.
There are too many people in the interesting areas to make it possible to steal.

It depends on how the system turns out. I don't really care what are the specifics of such system where players could catch thieves with their ingame actions. All that matters is that they can do it if they play well. I call it fair if both sides (thief & victim) can affect their chances with their actions.

Are you sure? A good shoot & loot team uses the steal skill to check inventories.

Doesn't matter what they do. Shoot'n'loot is just exploit.

I said winning or losing is not about items or killing.

In fonline it is. Killing someone you want dead when they don't want to die or taking someone's items when they don't want to lose them is regarded as victory for you and defeat to the target.

With a failed steal attempt the thief also loses time.

Failed steal attempt has nothing to do with neither player's actions. It's just a random occurance. The victim didn't cause the fail so it cannot be regarded as victory to him. It's just an accident for the thief. If the victim could somehow intentionally cause the thief to be caught, it could be called a victory for him.

Once again, you can't stop people from grieving or abusing a skill. Why nerve a skill when people who don't put points in it choose to abuse it?

Sure you can stop them from abusing. If there was a method to catch a thief with clever gameplay, fake steal abusers couldn't do anything to a smart player. If they used fake steal, they'd get nothing and the victim could just relax knowing they're just abusing because they didn't get caught. If they were trying to just peek in his inventory, they'd be caught and shot.

Stealing is not pvp, that you perceive it that way is up to you.

Then what it is? Players aren't cabinets you take items from for free. There are living guys behind every char with their own plans. If you step in and mess with their plans by taking items from them, you're messing with players. When you're messing with players and doing things to them they don't want and they are trying to prevent you it is pvp. They are struggling not to get stolen from and you are struggling to steal from them. Effort against effort.

In combat pvp there are 2 players trying to kill each other. Same thing: effort vs effort. Every time when there's a situation where 2 players have crossed desires and they compete against each other to achieve their goals it's pvp. It doesn't matter what the scenario is as long as there's crossed desires, a way to gain upper hand and enforce your opponent. 

There's even pvp in shopping: who gets the freshly spawned caps and items.

I stated a fact. People paying attention walk away.

That's just how it is now. We're discussing if it's okay and what could be instead of it. Stating obviousnesses doesn't get us anywhere.

It's not an MMOFPS, it's an MMORPG.
There's more than 1 way to solve a problem.
You can finish both FO1 an FO2 without killing anyone.

The point was that mmo games have to do with players competing against each other.

[ronillon]

Successfull steal attempt should be needed even for checking the inventory. They do not steal items, but they mess with you (stealing info about your inventory).

When someone is using a skill on you, the game should let you know in the chat/log. (Player XY used a First Aid on you. You gain 20HP.), (Player XY used a Science on you. That does nothing.) But successfull steal attempt, would cause no message to the victim.
(Different animations would be better, but i guess we will have to wait untill 3D.)

May be change the steal formula a bit so: Victim (PE+Steal) vs. Thief (Steal).

It seems more real and fair to me. Less abuse, thieves are fine.

And i think, that when a thiev fails to steal from the member of guards faction, he should be heavily punnished (unless the guard is bribed). Big reputation loss / death / jail.

[Wobbles84]

Thieves should not be allowed to steal from other players... I cant even log in because some idiot with a massive gun is taking what little I have. I've only started playing the game and have lost everything but my caps which are in the bank. Why should it be allowed to happen if you cant even store your gear in the bank?! Oh and it's not pvp at all if you cant defend yourself in a heavily guarded town. Its harassment...

Edit: It would be better and realistic if the npc guards see someone pickpocketing as an attack.

[Reginmund]

Thieves should not be allowed to steal from other players... I cant even log in because some idiot with a massive gun is taking what little I have. I've only started playing the game and have lost everything but my caps which are in the bank. Why should it be allowed to happen if you cant even store your gear in the bank?! Oh and it's not pvp at all if you cant defend yourself in a heavily guarded town. Its harassment...

1. obtain 10 brahmin hides ( beg, buy, strike a deal with another player or plain just steal, its up to you)
2. construct tent
3. ??
4. Profit!

All part of the game, you can rage and keep going at it or rage quit. It helps that you lose stuff very early on if you are new since you should be expecting not to be able to get the stuff back. This way you can accept the loss of better stuff in the future.

I recall TLA had item storage some time back but i don't know if that's changed as i haven't been to that server in quite a long time. Only thing is you cant hang around in there for long (about 30s or so iirc) or you get killed by the guards and you lose your stuff.

[Wobbles84]

1. obtain 10 brahmin hides ( beg, buy, strike a deal with another player or plain just steal, its up to you)
2. construct tent
3. ??
4. Profit!

All part of the game, you can rage and keep going at it or rage quit. It helps that you lose stuff very early on if you are new since you should be expecting not to be able to get the stuff back. This way you can accept the loss of better stuff in the future.

I recall TLA had item storage some time back but i don't know if that's changed as i haven't been to that server in quite a long time. Only thing is you cant hang around in there for long (about 30s or so iirc) or you get killed by the guards and you lose your stuff.

I just read about the tents on the wiki. The idea of not having a safe storage place (like the bank) in town ruins the game for me. I love this game what I've seen so far and it feels to me like the proper fallout 3. I mean no offense to the developers, but both the tagging and pickpocketing system is ridiculous at the minute.  As said before in this thread there should be a spot skill (perception should be the same thing) for some kind of defence. Police also shouldn't stand about watching people break their town laws. And players should not be allowed to tag without the other players consent.

[Reginmund]

I love this game what I've seen so far and it feels to me like the proper fallout 3.

Set between fallout 1 & 2........ disregarding van buren..... ok i won't drag this on.

As said before in this thread there should be a spot skill (perception should be the same thing) for some kind of defence. Police also shouldn't stand about watching people break their town laws. And players should not be allowed to tag without the other players consent.

I wonder if guards can just shoot an offender to unconscious and anyone who tries to steal off said offender (recognised as another offender?) and just jail them. 5 ~ 10 minute timeout (higher timer? you decide) which must be completed to gain freedom or to fully log off and allow you to log into another char.

Repeat offenders either get a higher timeout or made to do work for the guarded town in a separate map (teleported there) where you gain no exp but have to collect resources or transport goods ( like the box quest but without the benefits so watch out small frame).

Possibility of being bailed with a speech check and/or gambling (bribery???) with increasing difficulty and price for repeat offenses. i suppose the solution is multi thief alts but that's if you are committed enough to level them all up.

[avv]

made to do work for the guarded town in a separate map (teleported there) where you gain no exp but have to collect resources or transport goods ( like the box quest but without the benefits so watch out small frame).

Hah this would be great.

But the problem is that players themselves can't affect the robbers chances of getting caught. So as long as the robber has not been noticed by guards, other players just have to run away from him. All kinds of passive SPECIAl related checks just encourage thieves to minmax. Thief can freely minmax his steal skills but ordinary town-goers can't afford that. That's why the way to catch thieves has to be up to players and their situational awerness.

[Reginmund]

Hah this would be great.

But the problem is that players themselves can't affect the robbers chances of getting caught. So as long as the robber has not been noticed by guards, other players just have to run away from him. All kinds of passive SPECIAl related checks just encourage thieves to minmax. Thief can freely minmax his steal skills but ordinary town-goers can't afford that. That's why the way to catch thieves has to be up to players and their situational awerness.

Yeah i didn't have it fully thought through but just put it forth as another idea given a lot of players complaining about thieves and their lack of punishment when spotted by guards or otherwise.

[Wobbles84]

All of them approaches would make sense. If the towns look protect the people that are trading in them, they will gain more profit and don't have stand back and watch as a few thieves get rich without even trading at others expense. As far as I can tell, that guy that was stealing all my gear didnt care about the money and just wanted to cause grief. That's fair enough. if I was out in the wastes, I'd deserve it. But not in the middle of the Hub!

[Who Killed Bambi]

Steal is most important skill in all rpg i think so i dunno wai most of people dont like thieves, i think every player steal smthn in fallout and in other games where thiefs possible

[Wobbles84]

In any rpgs I usually make thief character, so I believe stealing is a big part of a game. But it has to happen within reason. If you're in a large trading center and your buying something or putting money in the bank and theres multiple guards watching your every move. Then stealing should be close to impossible. Unless the guards / police have all been lobotomised that is. In a gameplay aspect, where is the thrill of being caught stealing if you know that you are untouchable because the guards have your back and the victim cant do a thing to you. Sure if your a hacker / cheater / griefer or you just like exploiting game engines you'll get a cheap thrill and a hard on possibly...
What about the vanilla fallout games. If you picked someones pocket in public or stole something from a bench in plain view and got caught you where gunned  down (by everyone) on the spot! It's a vanilla game rule, why does it even need to suggested...

[avv]

In any rpgs I usually make thief character, so I believe stealing is a big part of a game. But it has to happen within reason. If you're in a large trading center and your buying something or putting money in the bank and theres multiple guards watching your every move. Then stealing should be close to impossible.

The guards are there to maintain general order, not babysit players. Surely certain areas could be very hard for pickpocketeers to operate due to guards (banks, shops) but they gotta make their living too. It must be up to players to watch their pockets and deal wasteland justice to harmdoers of their home town. When player steals from another player, it's a conflict between the two of them so they should solve it without massive npc intervention. Let the better player be rewarded.

[Wobbles84]

The guards are there to maintain general order, not babysit players. Surely certain areas could be very hard for pickpocketeers to operate due to guards (banks, shops) but they gotta make their living too. It must be up to players to watch their pockets and deal wasteland justice to harmdoers of their home town. When player steals from another player, it's a conflict between the two of them so they should solve it without massive npc intervention. Let the better player be rewarded.

The guards dont do anything to pickpocketers that are stealing from other players in banks and shops. Well not in the hub they don't. Even the bank tellers got a gun and he dosn't do anything. It's irritating as hell if you trying to quickly put caps in the bank and when you close the menu you realise someones just made off with your gun. How can you deal wasteland justice if you have fight the pickpocket and every guard thats seen you attacking them. For high level players its probably not a problem, if you can kill the pickpocket and every guard that comes near you.
I've resorted to carrying nothing but caps I've made from missions that I run to the bank with.
I'll say it again. if you where caught stealing by any npc in 1, 2, 3, tactics and probably NV (haven't played NV yet) you get shot.

Also what makes a thief the better player if they can do what they want and get away with? Theres no challenge in stealing from level 1 players, or anyone else that cant fight back because of the guards / police. As far as Ive seen in FOnline (and from reading the wiki / forums) is the better players are ones making an honest living.
Thats the last thing I'm saying on it.

[Slaver Snipe]

Here's some advice, put any caps you have into your hands (doesnt have to be active hand) and if you ever see another player get close run. This is an mmorpg based on social phobia. It may be ironic but for the most part it's true.