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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: Sius on May 11, 2010, 09:24:10 pm
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I have to give credit for this to Johnny Nuclear since its his idea and I believe its worth trying. So here we go:
Item description:
Needler Pistol
You suspect this Bringham needler pistol was once used for scientific field studies. It uses small hard-plastic hypodermic darts as ammo.
HN Needler Cartridge
Ammunition. This cartridge appears to be ammo for the HN Needler Pistol. Each 'bullet' is a small hypodermic designed to inject a target with its contents upon impact.
As the ammo description says, needler pistol is basically shooting small hypodermics. The idea is to fill these hypodermics with same content as the regular stimpak has and use the gun to deliver healing shots over long distances. With 4 APs required to shoot at 24 hexes range this could be a way how to introduce medics into the game in both PvP and PvE, since current medic=crafter and its useless character when it comes to combat (I'm not questioning his ability to deal dmg but his ability to support others with his doc/fa skills).
Modified ammunition for needler pistol should have 2 basic types. Regular stimpack ammo and superstimpak ammo. Both ammo types should heal similar amount of HPs such as the healing drugs they are made of but with some changes. Since its used in modified hypodermics, they are smaller and made to travel for long distances so the healing efficiency of healing ammo should be slightly less compared to regular simpak/superstimpak. So if wiki says that stimpak does +40hp and superstimpak +100 then stimpak ammo should heal for 30 and superstimpak ammo for 90. Also healing for 90 HPs with only 4 AP required could be kinda imbalanced so I think using superstimpak ammo should trigger healing cooldown or weakness effect. There are many ways how to make it work.
One way is to make superstimpak ammo to have 1 or 2 min CD every time the shot is fired. Its simple and easy sollution. The other way (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1534.msg16910#msg16910) could be to create cooldown pool (15 minutes maybe). Everytime medic shoot with superstimp ammo, he will get +3 min added to his CD pool but once he reaches 15 min (= 5 shots fired), he will have to wait untill the whole 15 min CD wears off. But if he mannages to keep his CD under 15 minutes, he will be able to shoot superstimpak shots freerly. Also cooldowns should be applied only for superstimpak ammo while regular stimpak ammo remains with no restrictions.
Crafting table
5x (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/images/1/14/Hncart.gif) = 1x Metal parts, 5x Stimpak resources (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Stimpak) or Superstimpak resources (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Super_Stimpak) and proper tools.
Technical FAQ
Q: How could one ammo type deal damage while other heals?
A: At first I believe that regular HN Needler Cartridge that we are seeing ingame already is not empty. Imho its filled with some kind of a chemical that deals the dmg not the impact itself. Anyway even if I'm wrong on this the gun itself could be modified to decrease the projectile momentum so when it comes to impact the damage to skin is minimal.
Q: How can I effectively heal someone by shooting stimpacks, if I have to bypass his armor?
A: Armors are designed to protect the largest bodyparts well but armors are often weakened at joits, legs, hands etc. So it should be no problem to aim and shoot at the bodypart that is not protected by 3 mm thick metal plates. Only overall armor that could be problem to penetrate and deliver drugs to his wearer is PA armor.
Q: Shooting at legs? Come on you need to carefully inject stimpak or you can do some serious damage to yourself!
A: I think not. (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4516.msg44110#msg44110)
Q: And the aimed shots?
A: Well there is no real need for them and hitting your eye with pretty much anything is nothing pleasant. Anyway they can be used somehow for something in future so you are free to come up with ideas.
Q: +30/+90 HP? Are you insane?! 10 HP per shot tops!
A: Its a matter of balancing how this would reflect (mainly in PvP) but if you take a look at regular combat log then you will find out that the damage goes skyhigh and suggested healing values are reasonable.
Q: What about alting, multilogs and medic abuse in combat?
A: Well when it comes to alting then the risk are the same whenether its SG sniper alt or medic so if one chooses to multilog it does not matter with what character he breaks the rules.
Q: Enough. Lol. Its not real nor fallouty!
A: Not real (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4516.msg42764#msg42764)? Not fallouty (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4516.msg42767#msg42767)?
Summarization
Pros
+ new element in combat (for both PvP and PvE)
+ combat could be more tactical and longer
+ adds field use for medics (right now medic=crafter)
+ potential to use it in other similar ways such as poison darts (used in Fallout Tactics), paralyzing shots...
Cons
- require some work to implement and balance it (such as everything), but still it seems like something rather easy to implement
- not realistic or fallouty for some players
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cool
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Id love to see this implemented but:
1. 5-10 stimpacks turned into ammo which works like 100 stimpacks. no way, for 100 ammo ya need 100 stims
2. aimed shots...
"you have been critically heald in the eye for 120 hp, knocked down, knocked out and blinded"
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Id love to see this implemented but:
1. 5-10 stimpacks turned into ammo which works like 100 stimpacks. no way, for 100 ammo ya need 100 stims
2. aimed shots...
"you have been critically heald in the eye for 120 hp, knocked down, knocked out and blinded"
1. true (did not realized that)
2. well eye/head/groin are not the right choice when it comes to stimpack injection area but I was talking more about hands/legs
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in fact aimed shots for healin purpose isnt the best idea at all...
but imagine that: supporting your team by spreading steroids/amfethamine via flying needles...
like this aimed could do
"you perfectly injected psycho dose into that guy ass, fuck yea"
also this medic class shouldnt be only capable of healing
second rank of living anathomy should be implemented to make such tricks possible, and with that perk and lots of new needler ammo we could have some fun
paralysing darts... :>
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There is a great potential in this not only with healing but as you mentioned it could be drug delivery system or also new way how to poison/paralyze players etc.
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I know im genius ;D
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I have to say no (-1), because i dont think that this is Fallout compatible idea.
I would like real combat medic class player, but classic one, one hex near his pacient, with doctors bag. (if i somewhere write class, it is only name of role for some player char, dont need to create some class system.. we have current sniper class - because we created sniper build and we put him sniper rifle into hand, thats all)
Idea of filling bullets with some poison is better IMO (from radscorpion), this will be another element in the game, but 1) poison is too weak 2) no need for poison shells if you will die in 3 bursts by BG or one instakill from sniper.
solution:
Ad 1) poison could be concentrated (scorpions + workbench), so effect will be bigger than normal poison
Ad 2) no way Jose
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Healing at close range will be still the most effective way how to heal people with maximum effect and also doctor can works only at close range. But without range at regular healing the field medic is more or less useless "class". Imagine player with maximum survivability and 300 FA/Doc skill. Once he uses his fa/doc he is useless for next X minutes and all he can do is deliver stimpacks so others around him don't have to spend their APs on it.
But with current instakills nothing can guarantee you that you wont go down the second you get to person that needs healing (if you ever reach him). Because of cooldowns such medic is completely dependent on healing items and if they remain simply HtH feature with absolutely no range, then the healer itself is doomed class. Tell me how many medics have you encountered in PvP? 10 months, 4 season, shitload of battles and I doubt there was anyone who used something like medic class in combat.
But this would bring completely new feature into the game. Ability to heal significantly 5 players (until the CD pool is empty) + low effect healing with no restrictions would definitely make things more about tactics and diversity.
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I really respect your other suggestions and thoughts about the game Sius...
But, shooting "instant stimpak heal!" via a gun? One doesn't need to be a wise guy to know that this sounds ridicolous, really. :-\
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I really respect your other suggestions and thoughts about the game Sius...
But, shooting "instant stimpak heal!" via a gun? One doesn't need to be a wise guy to know that this sounds ridicolous, really. :-\
So what? It doesn't have to be 100% 95% related to fallout has it? We can build miniguns out of scrap you know. And the idea isn't bad at all.
just give the person who receives hp a chance for the weakened status, and yes the fun part is. That chance is related to the shooters fa/doc skill.
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I really respect your other suggestions and thoughts about the game Sius...
But, shooting "instant stimpak heal!" via a gun? One doesn't need to be a wise guy to know that this sounds ridicolous, really. :-\
Read the "official" needler gun and ammo description. Technology is already available. And stop thinking about "whats real" and start thinking "whats good for the game". You see in TF they did not give a fuck about gun that shoots healing beams or needles, it was good choice how to create healing class so they did it. Same with space ships that shoot "magical" repairing beams to each other etc. Fantasy games have it easier with this, they just create spells for priests and they are done.
So its not the idea of long range healing (and this is just one example of execution, someone might think of something better) that is ridiculous here but imho the most ridiculous thing is that the medic serves as crafter in this game, nothing more. His Fa/doc skills mean nothing in combat and everyone rellyes on superstimpacks. Closest thing you get to medic in the field is powerbuilder that tagged FA to get it to 120%. But with this, medics could become new factor that can decide the outcome of the battle.
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I know that the needler was purposed as a scientific research item back in time before the war, so no reason to be a smartass. ;)
No, I just mean it would be out of pleace. I mean - "shooting healing"? Stimpaks aren't just insta heal things , one has to look actually at which body part it is injected. Also, really, just imagine this, it's just silly imagining shooting stimpaks over the map. I agree with your main idea in making doctors more useful and total agree with this, but not in making the needler gun a more better thing that it is already.
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I think I'm gonna have to go with Sius on this. The description makes it clear that there's a possibility. Another thing is the possibilities this weapon has which aren't limited to medics. I don't see why shooting stimpaks is any more ridiculous than using a tranquilizer gun. The needler pistol opens up poison ammo, healing ammo, and tranquilizers for slavers if there's a way to make this reasonable(Like a 95% fail rate if your enemy isn't in yellow/red hp and a successful hit would be the equivalent of a knockout). I think shooting drugs at people could be cool, but I see it being abused more than anything, like people shooting others with psycho just to try to get them addicted instead of for a battle-oriented purpose.
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I know that the needler was purposed as a scientific research item back in time before the war, so no reason to be a smartass. ;)
No, I just mean it would be out of pleace. I mean - "shooting healing"? Stimpaks aren't just insta heal things , one has to look actually at which body part it is injected. Also, really, just imagine this, it's just silly imagining shooting stimpaks over the map. I agree with your main idea in making doctors more useful and total agree with this, but not in making the needler gun a more better thing that it is already.
1st of all I was pointing out that the technology is already there and its no voodoo but its something "real" for Fallout universum. Just compare any energy pistol/rifle with this idea. What seems more crazy: the weapon that can deliver drugs inside small hypodermic or weapon that can fire red laser projectile or create and shoot plasma? So don't bring the ridiculous or not real arguments here, since compared to other FOnline and Fallout gadgets they fail more than this.
2nd I think leg can be the ultimate injection area but anything should do the job (except those aimed shots to head/eyes/groin). I wonder why somebody did not bring the armor argument where they will try to shus this idea because projectile would not penetrate armors such as PA/CA/Metal etc... Again "game>reality" and that should be always the aim, not vice versa.
3rd needler gun is useless. Its good for killing molerats but thats about it. + using the gun for healing purposes would be available ONLY FOR MEDICS. People without profession/skills would fail using it. Its protective measure so we wont see sniper powerbuilds that switch to needler to heal his BG friend. It should be restriced only for those who role medics.
I think shooting drugs at people could be cool, but I see it being abused more than anything, like people shooting others with psycho just to try to get them addicted instead of for a battle-oriented purpose.
Thats why I stick to stimpacks only in my idea. Anything else like poison, paralyzing stuff, drugs and so on is just an extra thought. Anyway afaik others can't drug you with negative drugs like jet/psycho etc...
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using the gun for healing purposes would be available ONLY FOR MEDICS. People without profession/skills would fail using it. Its protective measure so we wont see sniper powerbuilds that switch to needler to heal his BG friend. It should be restriced only for those who role medics.
Yeah maybe just make the formula factor in FA/doctor or a combination of the two to heavily affect your cth with a bonus for each Doctor profession level?
So cth is something like SG skill/8 + ((FA+Doc)/6)*Prof level when using medical ammo and give it an AP effect if that's gonna be a problem. This way, having 300 SG skill and 0 doc professions will give you a 38% chance on your end, which is too low IMO to be wasting stims. If you're gonna shoot this gun, you have to be trained to use it. At the third level and with the FA and doc you need, you have a base chance of 130, plus the bonus from your SG skill.
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I totally support you Sius!!
Solar youre in minority :PP
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nifty idea, but what about abuse from powercrits, it may be like, you critically hit "name" and healed him for 450 damage
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nifty idea, but what about abuse from powercrits, it may be like, you critically hit "name" and healed him for 450 damage
IIRC, crits were disabled for the flamer so I don't see why that can't apply here.
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Great idea, however I think amount of healing should depend on target DR etc.
Also I think that cooldown isn't necessary - you make bullets from stimpacks, and if you use stimpack you don't have cooldown.
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Great idea, however I think amount of healing should depend on target DR etc.
Also I think that cooldown isn't necessary - you make bullets from stimpacks, and if you use stimpack you don't have cooldown.
Yes, but healing is healing, In my opinion the person should get like max 50hp and weakened, so as not to create some funny buff situations, that 2 medics would heal one person all the time with 2 shots per turn
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nifty idea, but what about abuse from powercrits, it may be like, you critically hit "name" and healed him for 450 damage
Crit heals should be included(FA) btw, so the whining snipers with 10 luck would settle down..
BTW i voted no, because its just silly, but as a doc myself, i would welcome this change. If theres every going to be a "tank" like thing in FOnline, it would not be a very good idea to stand next to him in battle..
And yes, weakened is a must, this ability should be an "ohshi--" tool to save someone if the doc cant get to his target in time
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General idea is to make regular stimpack ammo without restrictions. Since stimpacks heal only for low amount of hp (15-30) its nothing in combat where every burst/shot deals 90+ dmg its like spitting into the ocean. So in order to heal 50+ hp you will have to fire twice = 8 APs. Also animations cost you some time so even jet addicted powerbuild healer with 18 APs will have some hard times keeping people alive via regular stimpack ammo.
Anyway superstimpack ammo heals for shitload of hp (like 2/5 of regular guy HP pool) so thats the reason why I think it should be limited through something more than just ammo and APs. But I believe that if FA comes with 15min cooldown pool while one superstimp shot takes 3 mins of that pool should be just OK. Using regular or superstimps in normal HtH way should not trigger any CD at all.
As for the weakening I believe it has no room in this since healing will be limited with CD. Its not that overpowered so I think making it 1 shot per player is not needed.
But its combat affecting suggestion so it will require balancing such as everything does but it is reasonable, provides diversion and seems not so hard to implement (since all we need is 2 new items added for medic crafters, set of rules how they should react and few skill restrictions on them so not everyone will be able to use them.
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CD pool? Hmm... Like this?
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1534.msg16910#msg16910
Same, but with stim ammo. Ok, you have my vote, but sadly, devs wont like the idea :P
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No, lets make Stimpack MINIGUN. I want to be STIMPACK MINUGNNER. I will heal every enemy bursts by my stimpack burst.
Sorry Suis, we were suggesting this idea in first era, but like a joke.
Also, if you look to the super stim image, this is not basic injection. Also i think that this will be useless too. Why to heal someone with stimpacks, you can heal him by 3 stimps max, but he will be bursted by minigune/instakill 3 times and he will die.
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Lordus you are angry if someone starts flame in your posts but when you do the same thing elsewhere its ok?
For those who voted NO: Please stop questioning technical side of the idea. When we are able to craft 100x needler ammo out of 5x advanced gunpowder and 1x metal parts then its OK with you. Even when ammo itself is not maid out of gunpowder or metal not even a little bit. We can make guns and armors out of junk and raw materials and thats OK with you. But when one suggest to put a purpose to something that is BY DEFAULT ALREADY IN GAME ONLY UNUSED, then you are against it cause its not real or its joke or whatever. Guys, really? ::)
Focus on what this could bring to the game. It can mean that medic can become viable class and good support in combat, turning medic profession from absolutely passive crafter into dangerous opponent. I think we all can agree on that medic should have their place in combat and this could provide it to them very easily with no extra difficult work required from devs. If you can come up with better idea that will not concern long range healing then share it. I would like to read anything about this since I kinda like medics/healers (former WoW Priest here ;) ). But please stop those bullshit wannabe arguments like "not Fallouty" or "if its for real then...". I could understand them in topics where someone wants to add alien blaster as craftable weapon or teleport phone booth to travel between towns but they are completely misplaced here.
Comment how this would affect the game in positive or negative way and as for the technical side - ignore it. Only thing that should be discussed about technical stuff with this idea is how it should be executed but trying to trash it just because you think its a joke or it does not fit in the game or its not real or anything is just dumb of you.
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Lordus you are angry if someone starts flame in your posts but when you do the same thing elsewhere its ok?
It is not flame, i just dont like this idea because it is absolutely not from Fallout world and sorry, it is ill-considered.
Everyone has armors (in PvP), fact, so how can i effectively heal someone by shooting stimpacks, if i have to bypass his armor?? If i use my own stimpack, i will inject it to place under the armor or to place where i have not armor (hand, near anckle,...). If i use stimpack to my teamate, i go close to him, i "move his amor" so i can use it.
But shooting stimpacks which will ignore the amor.. ::)
Well, tell me, what idea is dumber? SMG with armor broking ammunition possibility, or "miracle", armor bypassing stimpack?
Focus on what this could bring to the game.
The game needs to "somehow" raise all SG (excpept sniper) PvP ability, not implementing nonsenses.
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It is not flame, i just dont like this idea because it is absolutely not from Fallout world and sorry, it is ill-considered.
Everyone has armors (in PvP), fact, so how can i effectively heal someone with shooted stimpacks, if i have to bypass his armor?? If i use my own stimpack, i will inject it to place under the armor or to place where i have not armor (hand, near anckle,...). If i use stimpack to my teamate, i go close to him, i "move his amor" so i can use it.
But shooting stimpacks which will ignore the amor.. ::)
Well, tell me, what idea is dumber? SMG with armor broking ammunition possibility, or "miracle", armor bypassing stimpack?
Shooting at head/eye will deal damage, instead of healing.
Shooting at torso/groin will do nothing with non-crit shot, or heals low ammount of HP with critical.
Shooting at legs heals low ammoun of HP and normal at critical.
Shooting at hands heals always normal ammount of HP.
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Shooting at head/eye will deal damage, instead of healing.
Shooting at torso/groin will do nothing with non-crit shot, or heals low ammount of HP with critical.
Shooting at legs heals low ammoun of HP and normal at critical.
Shooting at hands heals always normal ammount of HP.
Well, so if you shoot somebody to hand by stimpack, penetrating his hand, flesh, maybe bones, nerve, it will not harm him, just because you shoot to his hand. He will not lose his gun if you hit your hand nerve? You cant damage his artery?
For christ, if someone is applicating stimpack, he has to penetrate CAREFULY his BLOOD VESSEL with ACCURATE penetration depth. It is not easy to do this even if you are non moving and you need little experience with this. It is very hard, if you are traveling, i.e. in ambulance car, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to do on long distances.
I.e.: if you shooting tranquillizing dart to some wild animal, you have to aim for flesh, because the active drug gets into the blood circulation from flesh.. But the effect is not instantaneous, but you have to wait for a while. And there is always possibility that you will kill that animal, or criple him.
So i think that this idea has not nothing common with real world but but also nothing with Fallout.
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Well, so if you shoot somebody to hand by stimpack, penetrating his hand, flesh, maybe bones, nerve, it will not harm him, just because you shoot to his hand. He will not lose his gun if you hit your hand nerve? You cant damage his artery?
For christ, if someone is applicating stimpack, he has to penetrate CAREFULY his BLOOD VESSEL with ACCURATE penetration depth. It is not easy to do this even if you are non moving and you need little experience with this. It is very hard, if you are traveling, i.e. in ambulance car, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to do on long distances.
I.e.: if you shooting tranquillizing dart to some wild animal, you have to aim for flesh, because the active drug gets into the blood circulation from flesh.. But the effect is not instantaneous, but you have to wait for a while. And there is always possibility that you will kill that animal, or criple him.
So i think that this idea has not nothing common with real world but but also nothing with Fallout.
Stimpaks don't have anything with common world too. It's almost the same as magic potions. Someone shoot your hand off, you used stimpak there, restored full HP (for example), and flesh grown back? It should work as DR only like novocaine, if you want realism, but it's Fallout, it works like magic potion and instantly revives your health, even if there're 30 bullets in your body.
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Stimpaks don't have anything with common world too. It's almost the same as magic potions. Someone shoot your hand off, you used stimpak there, restored full HP (for example), and flesh grown back? It should work as DR only like novocaine, if you want realism, but it's Fallout, it works like magic potion and instantly revives your health, even if there're 30 bullets in your body.
I dont want realism, i want to hold artist licence of Fallout creators. I dont want to make fairy tales from Fonline.. "Miracle medicine man dance into the batlefiled, he load his red cross gun and like spirts he sow the love and health"
Why always this ideas has bigger popularity than solving the real existing game problems?
edited by Lordus
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Stimpaks don't have anything with common world too. It's almost the same as magic potions. Someone shoot your hand off, you used stimpak there, restored full HP (for example), and flesh grown back?
When the medicine is injected, it provides immediate healing of the body's minor wounds.
So, no magic healing, atleast not as you describe it. ;) If arm is blasted off, then it's off. No stimpak resurrects it.
Also @ Sius and Lordus - to quote lisac - Control your temper gentlemen, don't let passion draw you into a strike-trap. Stop small scale wars and write something constructive instead.
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So, no magic healing, atleast not as you describe it. ;) If arm is blasted off, then it's off. No stimpak resurrects it.
No, I mean, someone bursted you twice with 10mm SMG. There're 20 bullets in your body. You running away laughting and then using some stims on you and... you're like new! So don't talk about realism here.
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Its a matter of personal taste what each and every one of us consider as Fallouty. I believe that this idea is here thanks to weapon/ammo description that is from original Fallout. As for the reality stuff I always prefer "game>reality" and trying to make it otherwise is impossible and nonsense. So again for Lordus and others it might be fairy tail suggestion but to me it perfectly fits into the game + it have incredible potential in both PvP and PvE. And yes Lordus there are many important balance issues that require some work but that does not mean anything like this can't be suggested and maybe implemented along with other stuff.
Anyway since this is turning into opinion vs opinion fight instead of constructive criticism, I would like to hear some word from devs about this (I guess there are no real cons other than just "won't fit in the game", which is again matter of personal taste). Yes I know you prefer that "no comment" policy but if you consider this feature stupid then just say so. Otherwise remain silent ;).
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I just dont know, why this should by pass armors, and other bullets not. I dont have any constructive answer from you, Suis.
And i have to repeat, you will have instantly more PvP opportunities, if you lower sniper instakills and BG burts damages..
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I just dont know, why this should by pass armors, and other bullets not. I dont have any constructive answer from you, Suis.
And i have to repeat, you will have instantly more PvP opportunities, if you lower sniper instakills and BG burts damages..
It will bypass armor because we make it to.
You can't shoot with shotguns over more than 12 hexes just because someone designed them that way. You can't use drugs more than 2 times because someone designed them that way. You can deal dmg equal to someones actual HP because someone designed it that way. You can't steal from guards/vendors because someone designed them that way. You won't respawn immediately after suicidal bombing because someone designed it that way. You can't talk to some people if you are "ugly" because someone designed it that way. Should I continue?
So is it such a fairy tail to design needler gun to do what its description says it can do? And to satisfy your needs for reality afaik only overall armor accessible in FOnline is CA. For others I would say that shooting a leg (=> easy to penetrate pants) is a way to go. And as for the CA then the projectile can be designed with relatively long and thin needle on top (maybe with several needles) so when it hits the surface it penetrate with only 0.4 mm width needle on top, that easily gets through armor. Only problem here could be with PA but on the other hand when someone is wearing PA then the armor itself is kinda advantage so as a result of that players in PA wont be able to receive needler shots (or we will simply quit this reality stuff and let the game be the game where unrealistic things can happen such as someone getting healed through armor).
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So is it such a fairy tail to design needler gun to do what its description says it can do? And to satisfy your needs for reality afaik only overall armor accessible in FOnline is CA. For others I would say that shooting a leg (=> easy to penetrate pants) is a way to go. And as for the CA then the projectile can be designed with relatively long and thin needle on top (maybe with several needles) so when it hits the surface it penetrate with only 0.4 mm width needle on top, that easily gets through armor. Only problem here could be with PA but on the other hand when someone is wearing PA then the armor itself is kinda advantage so as a result of that players in PA wont be able to receive needler shots (or we will simply quit this reality stuff and let the game be the game where unrealistic things can happen such as someone getting healed through armor).
1) Needler has penetrate perk already ;p
2) CA have pants too ;p
So don't don't worry about armor bypassing. Needler pistol can do it right now, no, it's not completely bypasses armor (if no crit, of couse), but it partly penertates it.
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But it does not make a sense, penetrate your armor beacuse you want to heal somebody.
If the bullet has enough velocity and hardness to penetrate the armor, it will also make an injury. The idea that you will shoot this stimpack on exact penetration depth (if people have different armors) and the rest of bullet/shell velocity/kinetic energy will mysteriously disapear is very funny.
Because of this, i think this is funny idea. And i have to repeat, we talked about this in VSB few era before and we were laughing because we considered this like a bullshit (no offense, i am only telling you the truth).
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I would rather make new ammo to poison or make HIV positive needler cartridge than heal people with a gun.
Anyways - even if people like the idea, it should be VERY hard to craft (for example you would need lvl 2 doc proffesion and lvl 2 gunsmith or something like this) and those needles shouldn't do much... Lets each can heal MAX 10hp.
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1st of all its not bullet but hypodermic. And 10 hp per shot? If shooting costs 1 ap and animation take 0.3 sec to execute then maybe...
Nevermind. The idea has been spoken, now its up to devs to decide whenether to implement it or not.
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then you'd need needler ammo for the minigun, the +10 HP per shot isn't a viable solution, in fact a +30 HP shot just isn't enough, since one can be offed by miniguns and instakill crits far too easily, in fact, even if this is implemented, one cannot heal themselves with the needler, and of course, the snipers will at first concentrate on the field medic before they would go for anyone else, just think about it, who would you kill first, the minigunner, or the medic who dispenses health into the pumped up warmachine? Who of these people will stay away from direct line of sights? Which one of them is most likely to be shot in the back of the head by 2 snipers while trying to heal his pal, only to be knocked down, and possibly out, making the minigunner completely useless? To repeat myself, that +30hp is absolutely nothing when one can instantly be brutalised by anyone with a resumé as long as some of the gangers have.
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1st of all its not bullet but hypodermic. And 10 hp per shot? If shooting costs 1 ap and animation take 0.3 sec to execute then maybe...
Nevermind. The idea has been spoken, now its up to devs to decide whenether to implement it or not.
so empty hypodermic aka needler ammo is making damage, full hypodermic will not.. damn, i miss something
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so empty hypodermic aka needler ammo is making damage, full hypodermic will not.. damn, i miss something
"Ammunition. This cartridge appears to be ammo for the HN Needler Pistol. Each 'bullet' is a small hypodermic designed to inject a target with its contents upon impact."
It's contents dealing damage ^_^
So, if it'll be filled with magic potion like stimpak, it'll immediately heal HP upon impact!
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Make Needler Pistol capable of shooting stimpacks!
Enough. Lol. Seriously, let's introduce something better: healing and protection spells for combat medic :D
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Anyway, it wil not bring new tactic element into PvP.
In PvP, you will die
instantly by sniper shot => no need for flying stimpacks.
almost instantly by BG burst => no need for flying stimpacks.
So why the hell we need this? Rather than this, i hope devs will invest their time into balancing of non sniper and non bg burster weapons.
Enough. Lol. Seriously, let's introduce something better: healing and protection spells for combat medic :D
I preffer summoning of dozens of rats.. it will crash every client, so the PvP will always end by draw.
Or the masterpiece of Summoner class will be spell of Vedaras. If you are in trouble, you can spell him near you. It is Falloutish, in Fallout there was Mysterious stranger perk. Devs, will you consider this suggestions?
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Enough. Lol. Seriously, let's introduce something better: healing and protection spells for combat medic :D
Thats the spirit Kilgore, ah at last we are moving forward!
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I want to finally see scrolls of town portal in this game.*
*the riddicolousness level of the above sentence fits this thread perfectly.
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I disaproove of this because a needler gun is a very compact weapon with very small ammunition, and a stimpack is a hypodermic, that is to say, something of very high caliber. You *could" throw stims as throwing knives, but THAT AIN'T A BIT REALISTIC. The dude could find a vein and pierce it in the right depth from quite far. NINJA MEDIC TO BOOT!
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Guys if you have nothing to say then you better keep it shut. There is nothing wrong with the idea it just proves how blinded fools some of you are. If it was not in first two pieces then its automatically insanity or ridiculous. But all of you smart asses have you even bothered to read the description of needler ammo and gun? Means are already there, its supposed to be a game and it can improve both PvP and PvE... I just feel sad about you.
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this is my thought on the matter..
Warrior with Minigun: Hey Medy boy! give me a shot of stim with that needler!
Medic: Okay! *does a aimed shot to the neck with the needler and stim pack ammo and hits, healing for 30 points of damage*
Warrior with Minigun: Thanks! *reachs up and pulls the needle out of the big vein in his neck before the medic can stop him due to the 1 INT he has, and starts to bleed for 10 points of damage per turn*
Medic: hmm.. *looking down at needler and back to the blood spraying every where out of the warriors neck* hmm... maybe this was a bad idea... *medic is than hit for 220 points of damage in the eyes and killed by a enemy sniper*
...and thats my two cents right there...
-Ulrek-
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this is my thought on the matter..
Warrior with Minigun: Hey Medy boy! give me a shot of stim with that needler!
Medic: Okay! *does a aimed shot to the neck with the needler and stim pack ammo and hits, healing for 30 points of damage*
Warrior with Minigun: Thanks! *reachs up and pulls the needle out of the big vein in his neck before the medic can stop him due to the 1 INT he has, and starts to bleed for 10 points of damage per turn*
Medic: hmm.. *looking down at needler and back to the blood spraying every where out of the warriors neck* hmm... maybe this was a bad idea... *medic is than hit for 220 points of damage in the eyes and killed by a enemy sniper*
...and thats my two cents right there...
-Ulrek-
Guys if you have nothing to say then you better keep it shut.
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this is my thought on the matter..
Warrior with Minigun: Hey Medy boy! give me a shot of stim with that needler!
Medic: Okay! *does a aimed shot to the neck with the needler and stim pack ammo and hits, healing for 30 points of damage*
Warrior with Minigun: Thanks! *reachs up and pulls the needle out of the big vein in his neck before the medic can stop him due to the 1 INT he has, and starts to bleed for 10 points of damage per turn*
Medic: hmm.. *looking down at needler and back to the blood spraying every where out of the warriors neck* hmm... maybe this was a bad idea... *medic is than hit for 220 points of damage in the eyes and killed by a enemy sniper*
...and thats my two cents right there...
-Ulrek-
do you generate a fountain of blood if you pierce yourself with a thin needle?
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Don't like it.
If you want to be battle field doc, just put 2xthougness, 1x dodger, 2xlifegiver and go doc in pvp.
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I think stimpack need to be carefully injected to cerian part of body by stipack needle and cant be shooted straight in ass by needler from 15 hexes.
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If you want to be battle field doc, just put 2xthougness, 1x dodger, 2xlifegiver and go doc in pvp.
Have you ever seen gang fight or some kind of mass event? Even PA and 10 perk slots won't save you from instakill and in most cases you won't even make it to player that is under fire. Sure you can always try to run, hide and get healed in safety but in that case when you compare ideal healer (aka 300 fa/doc) and superstimp. Superstimp > healer. Only drawback is AP cost but before healer will reach you your APs would be already refreshed from using 2+ stimpacks.
I think stimpack need to be carefully injected to cerian part of body by stipack needle and cant be shooted straight in ass by needler from 15 hexes.
Ok then, let it be some other drug maybe with just temporary effect. Lets say adrenaline shot or some drug like that. It will boost your HP for short period of time but if you don't get healed in lets say 2-5 minutes, then the +HP from long range healing starts to decrease.
So its fight A vs B+C.
A hits B for 100 dmg. B gets temporary +70 HP boost by drug shot from C and they manage to kill A. After 3 minutes B starts loosing 1 HP every 2 seconds until complete +70 hp boost is gone. So he will have to get healed by regular means too.
Anyway what is that superstimpack so everyone keeps telling here that it needs to be carefully injected. Is there any detailed description of its effects in body so there is any backup for those vein stuff theories (you know you've brought that "if it is real..."). Afaik stimpack can be injected pretty much into any large muscle or whatever since its nothing but futuristic version of healing potion. And if IN 1 and FA/DOC at 15% char can heal himself with such equipment like stimpack, then I believe it is highly plausible to develop and successfully use special injections that will deliver drugs at long range. I can already think of the "real life" version of such "weapon". As I said many times - technical side of this is not an issue. You just use it as an excuse how to trash this idea because you don't like how it sounds and because it was not in original series (but obviously it was, it was just left for players imagination to do the job since there is no real use for this in SP game but even then original devs thought about such things when they were designing needler pistol).
So again for 100 time. Cut the reality and technology crap, put your personal feelings aside and tell me what are cons of this in PvP and PvE. Really, please tell me.
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I usually like your ideas but i said no this one.
Anyone can fall to an instakill so i dont really know why it keeps being brought up.A doc with a stimpack shooting needler isnt any safer from it than a tank with a mini.
As far as your argument about sticking with whats already in the game well i agree with you to a certain extent but i just dont see this as fitting into fallout.While we have lasers and plasma guns and all kinds of weird unrealistic things we also have unrealistic armors that offer the same protection to chest and back that they offer to unprotected legs and arms.So in keeping with the spirit of fallout how can we assume that a stim is going to penetrate any better than a laser?We could assume that it has the velocity and penetration of a 223 round but it would seem weird without it causing some type of damage.I dont give a crap about realism if it compromises potential fun either Sius but sometimes i think maybe we can go too far with it.
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Has nobody saw a hunter putting a wild animal to sleep from safe distance on national geographic or something?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranquilliser_gun
A tranquilizer healer gun, capture gun or dart gun, is a non-lethal gun which is intended for chemical capture healing.[1] Tranquilizer gunsNeedler pistols shoot darts filled with tranquilizermedicine that, when injected, temporarily sedateheals the animaltarget so that ithe/she may be handled (or captured) safelysurvive. The tranquilizer can be a sedative, anaesthetic, [2] or paralytic agent. Tranquilizer guns have a long history of being used to capture wildlife without injury. TranquilizerHealing darts can also be fired by crossbow or breath-powered blowgun.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Stimpack
“ A healing chem. When injected, the chem provides immediate healing of minor wounds. ”
Retarded characters can inject them into townails, it heals. Magic potion. Plasma rifles. Imagination.
Seriously, enough with the bullshit, WE GET IT, its out of place, it cant pentrate armor. CONSTRUCTIVE people, please
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Bringing up a real life tranqualizer isnt helping with your argument about ignoring realism.
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^Why not make Stimpack throwable then? ( was to FischiPiSti post)
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"Because..............You cant produce enough kinetic energy to penetrate the skin."
Your right, it should be throwable too!
sarcasm.
Its strange btw, that the ripper has armor penetration, i never thought about bringing down a metal door with a chainsaw, i allways thought it would just destroy the chainsaw.
I hope some of you are getting the hints about the ridiculousness of some of these arguments/counterarguments.
We could even ask Chris Taylor about this stim-needler idea, if he would find it a plausable idea, would you abandon "realism" in a world of magic potions, fev vats, capsules that guarentee you radiation immunity, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc?
The questions about this idea, and what needs to be discussed ARE:
HOW would this alter gameplay? HOW could it be balanced.
Then the devs read, and THEY will decide if it fits in with their views of THIS game, NOT the frikkin fallout bible.
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Sius - why do you insist on a solution that's out of the ass ridiculous (I mean the idea of healing someone by shooting him is, well, questionable) while there's something better already out there, ie. smoke grenades? Yeah, they'd be hard to implement (would require both "forced fire" and some new graphics), but that's a solution to tending to your wounded that doesn't have RIDICULOUS written all over it. Anyway - the problem with combat medicine is the fact that, well, weapons kill. 9 out of 10 situations you won't stay wounded long enough for someone to even notice before you get finished off.
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Goddamnit !
"You need to carefully inject stimpack" - WTH? Do you inject normal stim carefully? With 2 AP action?
I think this idea will be very usefull for PvE docs, and somewhat usefull for PvP docs.
End this bullshit with "healing potionz and protecion spellz" - for the same reason we should classify plasma rifle as a "fire bolt" and plasma granede as a "fireball".
Anyway long range healing is not ridiciouolus = it's high demand and very useful thing in other MMO's, so i don't see reason for not implementing this (at least for time-being, it's beta test for God's sake)
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Altering the way a gun is used and trying to create a whole new method of using the needler sounds like a alot of wasted work just so we can shoot stims from long distances.I just dont see the point of this when your likely to die while waiting for a medic to get to you in time.It makes more sense to me if you just pop some stims on your own.Id rather see changes made to the way characters are created, points distributed, skills are raised.We have other threads on this forum that discuss ideas about balancing all combat classes and allowing many types of characters to patricipate and have the same chance as everyone else in combat.If the devs asked tomorrow about what we would want to see happen next i wouldnt even consider this over any number of things that could be done to improve fonline.Medics definatley belong in combat but not like this.
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2 Nice_Boat: First I like that idea and imho it fits Fallout as it is. Its just personal taste so once again try to ignore "ridiculous" element of this idea and focus on how it can improve the game.
2 Tyler: I agree that there are more serious issues that need fixing. But implementing this one is rather easy and quick my friend. When you take a look at "work required vs outcome" rate then it seems like one of the most productive suggestions I've seen so far. All we need at this point is to add new ammo type to doctors craftlist. And then set some basic skill/profession restrictions for using this ammo with needler pistol. Seems like not so hard work to me...
Anyway since I was not able to find ANY cons other than "ridiculous/not realistic" and similar, in this case irrelevant "arguments", I will try to show you why do I keep defending this if you have not noticed already:
Cons
- require some work to implement it such as everything (but still its nothing what should take months)
Pros
+ new element in combat (in both PvP and PvE)
+ fights will be longer and more tactical
+ add meaning to doc profession (doc=crafter not medic now) => diversion
+ potential to use it in other similar ways (poison darts, paralyzing shots etc...)
When you take a look at combat, then it can serve as a countermeasure against imho overpowered instakills. When you get instantly drained your hp to 0, then you are for 99.9% dead man. This could serve as a defense against that combat mechanism. It can be used in various ways with medic in second lines or at corners, making healer dangerous opponent. So no longer just range wars with whoever shoots first wins. People will be forced to come up with new tactics how to outsmart enemy and even outnumbered group will be able to prevail with decent cooperation etc... When it comes to PvE, then it will be most likely used only by "average players" since there is not much PvE yet but it can offer much more in future.
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^ I see only multiloged bots that heal powerbuilds or paralizing trolls.
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^ I see only multiloged bots that heal powerbuilds or paralizing trolls.
I see multiloged snipers/BG bots that camp entrance or suicide bombing trolls... Come on people, really?
So far only constructive criticism I've seen in this thread is from Imprezobus at page one. Rest of you here just spams how ridiculous it sounds without even thinking it through. You've just stopped reading at "Make Needler Pistol capable of shooting stimpacks!" and then puked out some wannabe arguments how to trash it...
If there is something ridiculous in this thread then its the fact, that you were able to spam 4 pages with nothing but shitposts and wannabe arguments. Constructive criticism R.I.P.
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Sius - let's say your idea somehow fits the Fallout setting and talk balance. You do realise that combat quite often stagnates into 2 groups hugging the wall with 1 or 2 guys moving from behind cover and shooting from time to time, right? So imagine a new kind of powerbuild - IN 10 "doc" fighter. Yeah, he's going to be low on SPECIAL (nothing buffout and mentats wouldn't solve), but he's going to virtually run on god mode in such a situation. Even worse, I remember some IN 7 guys tagging doc as their profession at one point or another because of their high doc/fa they'd take anyway. I don't really think that this game needs more Terminatoresque shenanigans somewhat akin to the police station scene, wouldn't you agree? I mean with long distance killing you could have people taking so much damage they'd die from solid tissue loss, lol. That's why I think that helping instakilled guys requires something like smoke grenades to deal with - because they simply provide a disruption in combat and allow both sides to actually maneuver more instead of commiting them to gamey duels that don't really solve the fight.
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do you generate a fountain of blood if you pierce yourself with a thin needle?
this is a "dart" more or less, in order to poke a hole through the thick skin of a wild beast, or to be able to hit and stick in, the needle would have to be fairly biggish for needle size, what would be a better use, would be a melee range type weapon, which you could have hold a few "mini stims" which would act like bullets more or less, but the medic would still need to be in close range to use this "gun", and it would show the same animation as using a stim would, but it'd basicly be a healing tool for teams, but since the amount per shot as less, you could make around 20 stim bullets for around the cost of 5-10 stims, and since stimpacks cant be used on another person, or at least since the last time i tried, this would make it basicly like a injection tool for drugs, rather than a dart gun, thus removing some of the problems with the "long range" healing system, now the only problem is explaining why they won't let you shot people with jet in NCR? well the answer to that is simple, and its probally the same one the devs won't let us have gauss rifles as craftable items.
so that really is a matter for the devs to deal with if they chose to use this type of thing at any given time.
and i last time i checked pointing out flaws -was- something to say, and i implied that the size of the needle needed would be larger than a normal stim, since it'd be made like a "bullet" rather than to just give a less forceful and carefully aimed shot to the arm for cure whatevers wrong with you. since the force of the thing hitting you could snap the needle if it was to thin. also, if you looked at the little joke i made, you would have noticed i said he shot him in the big vein in his neck with something the size of a dart. that is why it made such a mess.
cheers.
*edit*
End this bullshit with "healing potionz and protecion spellz" - for the same reason we should classify plasma rifle as a "fire bolt" and plasma granede as a "fireball".
and its lightning bolt!
-Ulrek-
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No its not, what boat commented last time, THATS constructive, argueing about needle size, is not.
@Boat:
This is what balance is for. I dont think it would be OP tho, IF done right. In a 2v2 fight where the doc is behind a wall healing his mate, he isnt doing any damage at all. The one thats taking all the damage(the Terminator) is taking serious punishment, and wont last long. If the system is working currectly, the doc wont have higher HPS, then an average fighters DPS.
If this way of healing would be affected by int/doc/fa skills somehow, then only a pure doc could heal just as much as a fighter would do damage. "Hybrid" fighters with tagged healing skills+1 combat skill would need to choose between healing or doing damage, and because they lack skillpoints(which they spent in combat skills) they need to do damage because in the long run, the low heals means certain death for his mate.
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OKAY DUDE I'M TOTALLY SORRY I'M A DUMBASS. It was my moment to shine as dumbass, and I did great.
(: Huh, yeah. It sez it was used for scientific field studies. If we're some realism bastards... we'll get all philosophical on how a stim works and what is the required dose for what index of regeneration. That will be a HUGE argument. In the end, it very well might be implemented. Yet the stim bullet would have a much smaller dose than a hypodermic full of the shit. I propose as a middle ground that there be a drug bullet, with something like the stuff Starcraft marines used to do: something that augments combat proficiency and (in this particular case) a temporary hitpoint rise or a bit more of damage resistance.
I think an important matter emerges from this subject. Will we keep the classic hitpoint progression from Fallout? If we're gonna convert this shit into a paradigm of "realism", we might be forced into admitting that more experienced people might be better marksmen, thieves, medics, or whatever. But they all bleed relatively the same. This digression is just provisional, but you may hit wherever you like.
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No its not, what boat commented last time, THATS constructive, argueing about needle size, is not.
debating about how the size of the needle of the healing "dart" does have a point, but also, this is a suggestions topic, people have the right to voice their thoughts on it, as long as they do so in a manner that is at least some what polite.
OKAY DUDE I'M TOTALLY SORRY I'M A DUMBASS. It was my moment to shine as dumbass, and I did great.
(: Huh, yeah. It sez it was used for scientific field studies. If we're some realism bastards... we'll get all philosophical on how a stim works and what is the required dose for what index of regeneration. That will be a HUGE argument. In the end, it very well might be implemented. Yet the stim bullet would have a much smaller dose than a hypodermic full of the shit. I propose as a middle ground that there be a drug bullet, with something like the stuff Starcraft marines used to do: something that augments combat proficiency and (in this particular case) a temporary hitpoint rise or a bit more of damage resistance.
I think an important matter emerges from this subject. Will we keep the classic hitpoint progression from Fallout? If we're gonna convert this shit into a paradigm of "realism", we might be forced into admitting that more experienced people might be better marksmen, thieves, medics, or whatever. But they all bleed relatively the same. This digression is just provisional, but you may hit wherever you like.
"scientific field studies" normally means tracking down wild life and shooting them with darts, and in the story line before the bombs dropped in fallout, the thing was probally used to shoot bears in the arse and knock them out, or maybe even shoot knock out darts in to people, but thats "studies" that full use on the battlefield.
as for the big scarey "realism" thing.. fallout is based at least slightly on how things work in real life, i am still stunned to this day one i hear how people just run around like chickens with their heads cut off one they hear the word "realism" heh. but to the point, like i said before, if a version of the needler was turned in to a "injection gun" type device that used stim cells, that could work, but i don't think even game devs would go to far off from semi realistic game play. even they know there are a few lines that you shouldnt cross one you're trying to make a game with semi realistic game play.
as for the "healing dart gun" idea, if the devs ever -did- take to liking the idea, i'd say that it should not be based on doc skill at all, it should be based on small guns, since you're basicly a healing sniper, with the amount of aimed shots you'd be making, basing it off the doc skill makes no sense, since even if you're trying to put a knock out dart in to a bear, or a healing dart in to a person, you still need a good aim.
anyway.
cheers.
-Ulrek-
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This is stupid idea, imagine when u have a biggun tanker , took spycho with him , then come to battle with 2-3 those kind of medic long-ranger , he is immortan for sure , cuz he will be healed after each shot ! lol . And i know this is the popose for this kind of long-ranger medic :">
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This is stupid idea, imagine when u have a biggun tanker , took spycho with him , then come to battle with 2-3 those kind of medic long-ranger , he is immortan for sure , cuz he will be healed after each shot ! lol . And i know this is the popose for this kind of long-ranger medic :">
And because you bring 3 healers and 1 BG you will loose all other firepower and 1 sniper who sneaks from behind can kill healers easily and BG can do nothing about it.
Its all about balance and maybe those cooldowns etc. But eventually this can bring shitload of fun and new tactical options to combat.
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And because you bring 3 healers and 1 BG you will loose all other firepower and 1 sniper who sneaks from behind can kill healers easily and BG can do nothing about it.
Its all about balance and maybe those cooldowns etc. But eventually this can bring shitload of fun and new tactical options to combat.
thats only if the "healers" even act like some kind of battlefield medic like in some of the teamwork based games like team fortress or maybe WoWC.
really if they call had scoped hunting rifles/sniper rifles and at least some points in small gun, they could double as a support/sniper, and by the time one of the medics went down the other two would be shooting the crap out of the enemy sniper, and than go back to healing their minigunner.
-Ulrek-
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I need some time to read all this stuff but first thing first. I really needed to do this from a w few days! :>
Combat medic - long range healing!
(http://www.teamfortress.com/images/posts/medic_back.jpg)
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With all respect it just seems dumb that medics shoot people with stimpaks. There's nothing wrong with the suggestion game balance-wise but can't we afford some class and athmosphere? Besides what's wrong with normal stimpak applying and first aid? Surely they might not fit the current pvp but maybe in future...
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Well, so if you shoot somebody to hand by stimpack, penetrating his hand, flesh, maybe bones, nerve, it will not harm him, just because you shoot to his hand. He will not lose his gun if you hit your hand nerve? You cant damage his artery?
For christ, if someone is applicating stimpack, he has to penetrate CAREFULY his BLOOD VESSEL with ACCURATE penetration depth. It is not easy to do this even if you are non moving and you need little experience with this. It is very hard, if you are traveling, i.e. in ambulance car, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to do on long distances.
I.e.: if you shooting tranquillizing dart to some wild animal, you have to aim for flesh, because the active drug gets into the blood circulation from flesh.. But the effect is not instantaneous, but you have to wait for a while. And there is always possibility that you will kill that animal, or criple him.
So i think that this idea has not nothing common with real world but but also nothing with Fallout.
This is first topic, that make me post...
This is great idea. That can really boost up my favorite class to do something usefull in pvp.
A lot of you arguing it is impossible to "shot" stimpack, despite of nobody here seems to have any medical knowledge. Let me a little bit enlighten you.
Do you know what to do, when you can´t hit the vein? In case of mark 4 burns, newborn or when the circulatory system completely collapses?
Will you use central venous cathether? No, because you are risking a serious infection(especially in the post-apo world) and that needs a skillfull surgeon. Then how to get fluids to the circulatory system? Where blood comes from? Bones? Yay, rigth answer. Distribution is as quick, as you hit the vein.
So you will use intraosseous needle. That is quick, for more that 90% you can be sure, you will hit the bone(humerus, femur). So point is to hit the limb and automatic injection will do the job. From armor screens, any of it, except PA seems to have any serious plating around long bones. This kind of needle easily penetrates tissue and with few exceptions the bone and if you wish, even normal clothing such as leather.
How it looks? (http://www.emsresponder.com/article/photos/1129827886099_Figure%205.jpg)
Of course, we are not using it like a darts. But it is possible. Range of that hypotetical weapon can´t be wide, mainly due to ballistic trajectory and losing the velocity with distance(I´m not common with this type of (medical) physics).
And what is the stimpack? Well if you suffers a bleeding wound, you need fluids, to compensate such a loss. Today, we have cheap FR, Ringer ect. But we are already testing substituion for plasma like Hemacel. And the bleeding? You can stop via pressure gauge or(in case of stimpacks) with little help of "clever" hemostatics.
Again, if you are not a surgeon or doctor(feel free anyone with that kind of degree to correct me) and you don´t have any idea about medical stuff, stop nitpicking. Some of you there acting like you have M.D. degree from urgent medicine and that dilettantism makes me sick :-X. Especially I mean LordUsin, you are maybe a good lawyer, but this is not your field.
If you want so much realism, do you see your HP count right now? ;) And do you realize how impossible is first aid, not mention the doctor skill with bare hands? Even if you have doc. bag it is nearly nightmare to imagine that for any paramedic or doctor.
Post scriptum: Excuse my manners and english, it is not my native language. And Sius, you can take a parts to your main post if you need to argue ;D
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-1.
Its not star wars or other shit ;]
Well Todays pvp , today pvp ...
Should be from two last wipe ;]
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Thanks melichor for nice post but I believe that devs have noticed this thread and they are already decided whenever they will implement this or not. Everything relevant was said in first 6 posts and rest of this thread is just arguing about its "falloutiness" and its really only up to every one of us whenever we like it or not. But the facts remain the same from the beginning that nobody was able to bring solid arguments why not to introduce this. There were some posts about balance issue but everything like that was already explained and could very well work with stackable cooldowns. Technical side can be too easily explained. So once again its all about personal taste...
And I hope that devs did not trash idea with such a potential just because someone have thought its not fallouty enough.
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Personally, I think this is a great idea and would definitely make a combat medic a much more useful class both in PvP and PvE. The implementation would definitely require a healthy dose of testing and balancing, but it would be a very welcome improvement to the combat value of a doctor/medic.
Not sure if anyone here is a fan or player of the Monster Hunter series, but gunners in that game have healing shot as well and it is VERY helpful in practice.
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Personally, I think this is a great idea and would definitely make a combat medic a much more useful class both in PvP and PvE.
i was trying to stay away from this topic but here i am again.
i do have one last off topic comment to make, Fallout doesnt have "classes", which makes that notion a bit flawed, you can build a character in a style, but there are no true "classes", only types of powerbuild, so in the end, one it comes right down to it, this will be a sniper/medic since the needler is a small gun, but now i'm goint to crawl back in to my hole.. cheers.
-Ulrek-
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I dont want penetrate my bones by any stimpack dart.. but..
If people will like this idea, i hope that more Team Fortress 2 features will be implemented (slow big gunners :) ).
Back to topic. Nobody solve the problem with armor.. Different armor, different penetration depthh needed. So at lest, if you will implement this idea, make different darts for each type of armor, so you medic will have to reload adequate type during the combat.
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I dont want penetrate my bones by any stimpack dart.. but..
If people will like this idea, i hope that more Team Fortress 2 features will be implemented (slow big gunners :) ).
Back to topic. Nobody solve the problem with armor.. Different armor, different penetration depthh needed. So at lest, if you will implement this idea, make different darts for each type of armor, so you medic will have to reload adequate type during the combat.
Lordus. Once again game>reality. Think about it. Process it. And then tell me wtf is wrong with this idea other than you don't like it. As said bazillion times before there are way more critical errors in logic/realism than some stupid needle penetrating armors in FOnline so please stop posting "technical flaws" on this suggestion because it has none.
Thats the beautiful thing about the games. They don't have to follow logic or reality and FOnline does not follow them in shitload of cases so why did you pick this one to suddenly care about the stuff like penetrating depth of a needle vs certain armor? Just be a man and admit that you such as some other people here are looking for flaws on this suggestion because you simply don't like it. And thats kinda lame don't you think?
I'm not saying that you should like it but you certainly should not kill the idea that could improve the game with minimal work required just because of your personal opinion. So imho technical arguments on thisone are kinda irrelevant when it comes to FOnline background.
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Sius, it's not about bringing realism in the game as much as it gets, it's about verisimilitude, a constant "flow" what can be done and what not into the fallout world. And sorry to say that again, but shooting needles like a badass to heal people is far from plausible...
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Sius, it's not about bringing realism in the gay as much as it gets, it's about verisimilitude, a constant "flow" what can be done and what not into the fallout world. And sorry to say that again, but shooting needles like a badass to heal people is far from plausible...
" +1 " ...*and crawls back in to hole*
^,..,^
-Ulrek-
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Honestly, I love the idea of a needler pistol shooting stimpaks. On the other hand, I hate the idea of a medic healing when he's not right next to the person he heals. So, nope, I'm against this - even if medics are fucked up in the game.
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Do you like this suggestion ?
Yes !
In (almost) every mmorpg, there are ranged healers. Those heals are made by a caster summoning a specific spell. That's logical in these games. And to bring the idea of the ranged medic in Fallout, the only one logical way is the needler pistol. That's an excellent idea I think.
I'm very surprised to see as many opposition to it. Ranged healer is a classical and essential thing in mmorpgs. I'm disappointed to discover a such reaction to this logical feature. Because it's really logical, it's unavoidable.
"Each 'bullet' is a small hypodermic designed to inject a target with its contents upon impact.", it means what it means, and it's already in game.
And, just a word about realism and things which sounds or not fallouty.
In the Fallout world, there is a corporation that everyone know. It's Vault Tec. Every fallout player would agree that Vault Tec is a fundamental element of the Fallout story plot. According to the fact that, as players, you agree with existence and sense of Vault Tec as a normal element of the scenario, what element could seem unrealistic to you ? Vault Tec has made the G.E.C.K, the Water Chip, they worked on FEV. Which one of those things is realistic ? None, I guess. But, as fallout players, you just said "that's ok, that's a plot, I like it and I accept it", so now, still as fallout players, you can't claim that you're looking for realism. Realism in Fallout is fucked from the beginning of the whole story. That's just sci-fi : you take a scientific or historic idea, you make it evolve in a future and you have a new world, an imaginary world. And there, only there, the story begins.
So, if the substance which is contained in needler cartridges is changed, that's not a problem for us, we know that's possible in this world.
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" +1 " ...*and crawls back in to hole*
^,..,^
-Ulrek-
"-1" ... *floods the hole with FEV, then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiTCuw4_Mi0&feature=related*
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Honestly, I love the idea of a needler pistol shooting stimpaks. On the other hand, I hate the idea of a medic healing when he's not right next to the person he heals. (..)
Exactly
Maybe such 'shooted stimpacks' (only normal stimpacks, injecting drugs this way would REALLY be abused) could have only a certain chance to work, like 40 or 30%? Then they wouldn't be really useful in pvp, but still worth a try from time to time (in this case I just think aloud)
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Somebody mentioned injected poisons here. THAT is a great idea, not only to widen the small guns pvp usefullness form sniper rifle only, but also as a nice anti-powerbuild tool :D
Why? Because some kinds of poison shouldn't only do some ridiculously small damage, they can also lower stats for a while (if anyone ever tried Fallout pencil & paper, there is a very nice poison chart out there). Imagine that one can make some needler darts that lower stats for an hour, strenght for example (but not only strenght) A target should have some save throw against that poison (10k, endurance - 1?), but when shot and fail the save throw, a char would loose i.e. 1 strenght, 1 agility, 1 endurance (max -2 for two doses, as it is with any drugs).
That wouldn't hurt average chars too much, but powerbuilds would be screwed. Why? 'Cos most of contemporary powerbuilds are made so they work only when high on tons of drugs, when their stats are maxed out to the limit of what is possible. Even -1 to strenght would be a great pain for such char, as he couldn't use his weapon efficiently for about an hour (most of them meet the weapon strenght requirements when on 2xbuffout). Ordinary 'not crackheads' chars on the opposite, wouldn't find such poison too painfull, as 1 buffout would be enough to surpass the poison penalty.
Nowadays, even the owners of pvp drug powerbuilds moan about those chars, but still use them as they are simply the most efficient ATM. So maybe make them not that efficient? Forcing a certain flexibility when distributing stat points would make the pvp world less 'powerbuilded'. I think that after a while most people will be happy about it.
(Yeah, I know - I wandered a bit off-topic here)
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Well I see YES options are prevailing. Anyway, this is a good idea, and Ulrek said the fallout is not about classes, well it is. There are different types and should be equally strong/helpful for the faction/world. Im strongly for making clear divisions between players as it will help/improve combat/gameplay as it is now making the battlefield more varied, leading to new tactics and so on
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+ 1 ,I like both healing "darts" and poisoning "darts", it will add more diversity in this game. We need to move on in FOnline, this isnt your beloved Fallout anymore, this is something constantly evolving and I think this is a good step forward.
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We need to move on in FOnline, this isnt your beloved Fallout anymore,
the day thats true i bet myself and a good few others will quit playing FOnline.
as for more on topic things.
Do you like this suggestion ?
Yes !
In (almost) every mmorpg, there are ranged healers. Those heals are made by a caster summoning a specific spell. That's logical in these games. And to bring the idea of the ranged medic in Fallout, the only one logical way is the needler pistol. That's an excellent idea I think.
I'm very surprised to see as many opposition to it. Ranged healer is a classical and essential thing in mmorpgs. I'm disappointed to discover a such reaction to this logical feature. Because it's really logical, it's unavoidable.
"Each 'bullet' is a small hypodermic designed to inject a target with its contents upon impact.", it means what it means, and it's already in game.
And, just a word about realism and things which sounds or not fallouty.
In the Fallout world, there is a corporation that everyone know. It's Vault Tec. Every fallout player would agree that Vault Tec is a fundamental element of the Fallout story plot. According to the fact that, as players, you agree with existence and sense of Vault Tec as a normal element of the scenario, what element could seem unrealistic to you ? Vault Tec has made the G.E.C.K, the Water Chip, they worked on FEV. Which one of those things is realistic ? None, I guess. But, as fallout players, you just said "that's ok, that's a plot, I like it and I accept it", so now, still as fallout players, you can't claim that you're looking for realism. Realism in Fallout is fucked from the beginning of the whole story. That's just sci-fi : you take a scientific or historic idea, you make it evolve in a future and you have a new world, an imaginary world. And there, only there, the story begins.
So, if the substance which is contained in needler cartridges is changed, that's not a problem for us, we know that's possible in this world.
in the fallout world there is still a bit of realism, but, it uses the time tested "it happened many many years from now, who knows what we'll really be doing than?" bit, which, in away is a free pass to write all sorts of crazy stuff. which while it works alright with some games, and sits well with some gamers, anyone who has role played in any sort of game, or is just a fan of classic RPG story lines just hates it one the story goes off to its own little world and leaves you to wander around and scratch your rear.
oh, and if you want to talk about other "MMOG" games, i think FOnline is a bit more like a very high tech "MUD", rather than a full MMOG. since its not really made like most other crappy WoWC clones, and is made off of a well loved single player game.
as for the G.E.C.K, if you take whats been posted on the NMA forums, its basicly a "insta farm" with plants and all sorts of crap to turn a slice of desert in to a semi rich farm land. etc.
Well I see YES options are prevailing. Anyway, this is a good idea, and Ulrek said the fallout is not about classes, well it is. There are different types and should be equally strong/helpful for the faction/world. Im strongly for making clear divisions between players as it will help/improve combat/gameplay as it is now making the battlefield more varied, leading to new tactics and so on
and to answer this, what you're talking about is changing the entire style of how FOnline works, since its based off of a very free points and skills system, rather than "classes", and not to mention, it makes alting even worse, since now people will have one character for every role in case some one else is not around to heal or fight at the front. heck i already know a guy that has "sniper" or "tank" or "trader" infront of his main character name, since he has a few characters of different types.
Sius, it's not about bringing realism in the game as much as it gets, it's about verisimilitude, a constant "flow" what can be done and what not into the fallout world. And sorry to say that again, but shooting needles like a badass to heal people is far from plausible...
+1
(slow big gunners :) ).
+1 that i could get behind i think..
Lordus. Once again game>reality. Think about it. Process it. And then tell me wtf is wrong with this idea other than you don't like it. As said bazillion times before there are way more critical errors in logic/realism than some stupid needle penetrating armors in FOnline so please stop posting "technical flaws" on this suggestion because it has none.
Thats the beautiful thing about the games. They don't have to follow logic or reality and FOnline does not follow them in shitload of cases so why did you pick this one to suddenly care about the stuff like penetrating depth of a needle vs certain armor? Just be a man and admit that you such as some other people here are looking for flaws on this suggestion because you simply don't like it. And thats kinda lame don't you think?
I'm not saying that you should like it but you certainly should not kill the idea that could improve the game with minimal work required just because of your personal opinion. So imho technical arguments on thisone are kinda irrelevant when it comes to FOnline background.
he's not killing the idea, he's posting his thoughts about why its a bad idea, if you want people to like your idea try to point out the good points, and changing the first post with updates to your idea untilll most of the people vote for it as is, since roughly half of the people you got a "yes" out of said "with some changes" rather than a straight yes.
anyway thats all for now, cheers.
-Ulrek-
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the day thats true i bet myself and a good few others will quit playing FOnline.
Bye bye then.
what you're talking about is changing the entire style of how FOnline works, since its based off of a very free points and skills system
Actually FOnline is all about classes or specializations if you wish. If you have not noticed north vs south argues around the forums, miners vs PKers etc. Compare users which play mostly near Klamath/Den//Redding with those from NCR/Adytum. Even if you have completely free choice how to develop your char, you are limited with special, perks and skillpoints and the choices where to spend these will determine what "class" you are. Mainly you are either one of the powerbuilders or "regulars" and if you are PB then it would be mostly SG/EG crit sniper, BG (crit build, brof build or bonus ranged dmg build). There are tons of mini versions of each PB I've mentioned such as builds with light/heavy drugs, more dmg based or more survival based etc. But in general there ARE classes.
he's not killing the idea, he's posting his thoughts about why its a bad idea
No he is posting reason why he does not like the idea not why the bad is idea. And the reason is "its not realistic / its not fallouty". And as far as this argument goes its only up to each and every one of us to decide whenether the suggestion is fallouty or not (God how many times did I said this? I'll ctrl+c next time...). And all that stuff about realism is getting really boring too so once again: There are way more critical errors in logic/realism in FOnline than the gun that works as the original description sais might be.
Edit: 1st post modified
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Bye bye then.
Don't be an asshole. You might not have noticed this, but there are still people actually caring about keeping FOnline and it's "Roots" special and not becoming a generic MMO as we find it everywhere these days.
And that's where my following question comes from:
Do we really NEED that Long Range Healing?
I am not even talking about this needler-stimpak stuff, I am more talking about having a long range healer itself. For what?
Just because "every other MMO has longe range healing"? There already is a way for combat medics, and as far as I can see barely no one is complaining about how medics behave in fights. It's actually "realistic" the way it is at the moment. Why then change it with magic potions flying through the air and instantly healing someone?
And as far as this argument goes its only up to each and every one of us to decide whenether the suggestion is fallouty or not (God how many times did I said this? I'll ctrl+c next time...). And all that stuff about realism is getting really boring too so once again: There are way more critical errors in logic/realism in FOnline than the gun that works as the original description sais might be.
You have it right here. "As far as the suggestion goes". But it's not up to us to decide whether things are fallouty and so worth implementing or not. Still people can have their own opinions. You should expect that when you open a thread here.
And I can see many many people complaining about it, even my stomach feeling says it just doesn't fit. And then you say "bye bye then"? Seriously, next post with such stuff I will just delete. We can discuss here and all, but don't piss people off just because they don't like your suggestion.
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Don't be an asshole. You might not have noticed this, but there are still people actually caring about keeping FOnline and it's "Roots" special and not becoming a generic MMO as we find it everywhere these days.
We need to move on in FOnline, this isnt your beloved Fallout anymore. -> the day thats true i bet myself and a good few others will quit playing FOnline. -> Bye bye then
FOnline does not equal to Fallout. It never did and it never will just because that "little" fact its MMO. And tell me will introducing long range healing be such an invasion into FOnline roots so it will start becoming another generic MMO?
Do we really NEED that Long Range Healing?
If you ever want to have decent PvE, healer is the elemental part of it. Even tho in "dungeons" it would be possible to heal at close range, but still long range healing could be useful in various situations even in dungeons and when we talk about open world PvE then its completely different case, where once again long range healing has its part. And as for the PvP, well possibilities are endless. The main goal of this idea is to make medics useful and viable role to play in combat because right now medics have no other purpose than supply others with drugs. But with this, they could have their spot in every battle no matter if its PvE or PvP.
Besides even if there wouldn't be any reason at all to introduce this but devs would still do it, whats the harm? Will the game be ruined by it so it will become unplayable and players will start to flee in hundreds? What reason other than "it does not fit in" (which I don't really understand why) is there so you are so strongly against it?
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I want tactics, and long range healing is the opposite of a tactical feature.
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If you ever want to have decent PvE, healer is the elemental part of it. Even tho in "dungeons" it would be possible to heal at close range, but still long range healing could be useful in various situations even in dungeons and when we talk about open world PvE then its completely different case, where once again long range healing has its part. And as for the PvP, well possibilities are endless. The main goal of this idea is to make medics useful and viable role to play in combat because right now medics have no other purpose than supply others with drugs. But with this, they could have their spot in every battle no matter if its PvE or PvP.
Besides even if there wouldn't be any reason at all to introduce this but devs would still do it, whats the harm? Will the game be ruined by it so it will become unplayable and players will start to flee in hundreds? What reason other than "it does not fit in" (which I don't really understand why) is there so you are so strongly against it?
to reply to the first part of this, in PvE you don't really need a long ranged healer, since if you shoot some one with a big old needler round, you might very well mistakenly miss the spot you are aiming for and kill them, -that- would be "fallouty" i think heh, but i think you know what i mean, as for it making PvE "decent" i really cant see how it would really make it all that better, you'll still fight the same monsters in hordes, and if you live you live, and if you mess up you die, what would make PvE better would be adding more places with powerful mobs or other lasting hunting grounds like Sierra. also, yes, you can use medics for real combat medic duty, if a team mate dies and runs back with a new load of gear, you're medic can First aid him and get him back in the fight without a waste of drugs to heal him, at least for gangs that don't use fast-log alts.
to reply to the second part, the "harm" it would do is not really the problem here, its that it just doesnt sit right with people who don't like getting shot by their enemys, let alone their team medic. no people won't leave in massed waves, but some hardcore fans, and probally some GMs won't like it, as we've seen some of them on this topic saying it doesnt quite sit well with them.
There are way more critical errors in logic/realism in FOnline than the gun that works as the original description sais might be.
you're right about that, but we're talking about this right now.
FOnline does not equal to Fallout. It never did and it never will just because that "little" fact its MMO. And tell me will introducing long range healing be such an invasion into FOnline roots so it will start becoming another generic MMO?
it probally won't make it just another MMOG, but i don't think thats really the problem here, but also i think people who say that we should have some form of ranged healing due to the fact that other online games have them, is flawed in away, since FOnline is not built like a pure MMOG, its more like a custom and "upgraded" in some ways massive multi player online mod for fallout2, and thus, i think people who play it, play it to play a MMOG, thats close to the game they love, but is single player only unless heavily modded. as for logic and realism problems with stuff already in Fallout/FOnline, to me its quite simple, those things stay since they were part of Fallout, and most of them are kept due to them being already in the game, and widely known to the players as part of the "lore" of Fallout, what you're talking about is adding in a new thing, which you have done a poor job at selling to the player base in some areas.
Don't be an asshole. You might not have noticed this, but there are still people actually caring about keeping FOnline and it's "Roots" special and not becoming a generic MMO as we find it everywhere these days.
And that's where my following question comes from:
Do we really NEED that Long Range Healing?
I am not even talking about this needler-stimpak stuff, I am more talking about having a long range healer itself. For what?
Just because "every other MMO has longe range healing"? There already is a way for combat medics, and as far as I can see barely no one is complaining about how medics behave in fights. It's actually "realistic" the way it is at the moment. Why then change it with magic potions flying through the air and instantly healing someone?
as to commenting on this bit of text, theres no need to delete posts quite yet, i was a bit of a drama queen one i said that myself and others would likely leave FOnline, and i think he was just annoyed for that, i'll try to stay on topic more.
as for needing long range healing and it turning FOnline in to a random low quality MMOG, its not really about that, since if the devs really did add in "healing darts", than they'd be weaker than a normal stim pack, which it takes a few of to heal some one, thus, unless you want to make the stim darts stupidly powerful, healing 50+ damage per shot, than i do find a flaw here that others did not point out.
if these "darts" really are smaller than a normal stim, as far as "feel good juice" goes, than they'd be weaker, and you'd have to use quite a few of them to heal some one with higher HP, which basicly brings its level of usefulness down quite a bit, since unless you're trying to heal the guy to keep him from dying in turn based mode, which could still likely kill the guy you're trying to heal, since darts going in and healing perfectly every time -is- quite "un-fallouty" to me. so it'd probally be easier to just make first aid work with a "combat medic" perk that allows a faster cool down timer for your doc and FA skills. and allow healing in combat mode for turn based etc, if its really that needed, which i don't think it is.
and to sum it up, the arguement i'm putting out here, is that they'd be to weak to be hugely useful.
cheers.
-Ulrek-
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As it stands you almost can't heal anyone at all in combat. You can't use either healing skill in turn-based mode, and real-time combat usually boils down to everyone running around bursting at each other in my experience. Getting someone to stop so you can heal or stim them usually results in you both getting blown away on the spot.
When I look at the way it is now, I really see zero use for the medical skills in a multi-player environment other than for sitting in a town all day to heal people. First aid in PvP is mostly a self-use affair. Why have a medic in your team when you can just insta-restore 100+ hp to yourself?
I'd love to see these abilities branch out and become more functional in combat settings. Medics/Doctors can be so much more than simply stimpack factories.
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As it stands you almost can't heal anyone at all in combat. You can't use either healing skill in turn-based mode, and real-time combat usually boils down to everyone running around bursting at each other in my experience. Getting someone to stop so you can heal or stim them usually results in you both getting blown away on the spot.
When I look at the way it is now, I really see zero use for the medical skills in a multi-player environment other than for sitting in a town all day to heal people. First aid in PvP is mostly a self-use affair. Why have a medic in your team when you can just insta-restore 100+ hp to yourself?
I'd love to see these abilities branch out and become more functional in combat settings. Medics/Doctors can be so much more than simply stimpack factories.
In original Fallout FA = patch yourself after combat without sleeping/using stims or other chems.
Here FA = healing spell on self to restore HP, but you have CD instead of mana.
In TB you can't use FA, one of devs somewhere said that it'll be possible later, but... I think they shouldn't add it in TB, but remove it in RT while combat mode. So it won't be a combat skill. And of couse the same about doctor, who can fix his hand instantly after it got shot.
Making needler able to heal some HP will be useful then. And make needler itlsef more useful, because someone used it for lvling on mobs, but after nerfing cartriges crafting... ^_^ noone is using needlers anymore.
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noone is using needlers anymore.
Not true, theres still quite a bit of needler use.
As for the actual topic, I'm afraid I'm in the camp that doesn't love the idea. Not because of any realism gripes, but because I like the thought of people having to get into cover to heal up their party and use their heads to make it work for them.
I understand this is probably very easily said but difficult to do at the moment, but my view is any changes should be towards that direction
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And then, closed.
Note 1 : The idea of needlers shooting stimpaks is closed itself, but topic is still readable for further use.
Note 2 : If you have another idea about healing (or long-range healing or whatever) write another thread. One idea per thread. PM me if there's any problem.