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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: vedaras on March 10, 2013, 04:42:28 pm

Title: Where is action these days ?
Post by: vedaras on March 10, 2013, 04:42:28 pm
well when i see that server is full of people, like 128 now, i imagine that at least some of them are looking for fight. So were do they fight? as at least in good old times non tc main pvp ground was reno, now i am idling in reno commercial entrance like in ncr, and no one comes, so i started thinking maybe people fight elswhere these days? where is the magical place?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Senocular on March 10, 2013, 04:46:41 pm
Hinkley.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: davrot on March 10, 2013, 04:47:06 pm
Combat mode set to both, 200 players online last night, scoured the whole map, 4 players found. I would really like to see where are they, perhaps a dev can shed some light?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 04:49:05 pm
Players are starting to think, good.

I always been suspicious about the population, sometimes I think it is actually an illusion just to keep the few existing players in game. I can count approximately the players who do some action in cities, players who idle in them, but when I do the math there's always some huge hole it in and it makes me wonder where is the rest of them and why I never see them no matter where I go or what I do and if their really there what could they possibly be doing all the time for all this time in the session?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: vedaras on March 10, 2013, 04:52:51 pm
Hinkley.

hinkley is for retards only, and its no gain game, you do nothing in it except wasting your time, so i dont believe everyone is in there, since everyone plays the game and is pvping for gain. maybe just bbs are exception, cause they always afraid to lose stuff...
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 05:07:00 pm
What else do you do in game besides being always on some gear-less cheap character yelling how cool are you?

I don't remember you being in a city, geared and actually encourage some players to come. So, it is kinda funny you ask questions like this.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: vedaras on March 10, 2013, 05:11:24 pm
What else do you do in game besides being always on some gear-less cheap character yelling how cool are you?

I don't remember you being in a city, geared and actually encourage some players to come. So, it is kinda funny you ask questions like this.

i see no problem in being strong even without gear, and you are weak even with the best of it, so cry moar, all i can say...
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: BenKain on March 10, 2013, 05:19:14 pm
I don't know what you two butthurt apes are flinging shit at each other about, but every town was taken last night. Three of our finest factions clogged the the top of my map so badly last night. 
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Wichura on March 10, 2013, 05:27:06 pm
Where is action these days?
Forum and IRC.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 05:32:08 pm
i see no problem in being strong even without gear, and you are weak even with the best of it, so cry moar, all i can say...

Yup, you just told me exactly what I need to know about you.

Combat mode set to both, 200 players online last night, scoured the whole map, 4 players found. I would really like to see where are they, perhaps a dev can shed some light?

And you, how often you do that? Weren't you one of those NCR permanent inhabitants with plasma grenade slaves on world map to stomp on noobs?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: DocAN. on March 10, 2013, 05:34:22 pm
Forum is the most active place
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: vedaras on March 10, 2013, 05:38:21 pm
I don't know what you two butthurt apes are flinging shit at each other about, but every town was taken last night. Three of our finest factions clogged the the top of my map so badly last night.

i see no problem in town control and town fights, but you cant do that alone, and if there are no tc fights up, you need to fight somewhere right?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 05:44:02 pm
Like a lot of players explained me this before, your place is in Hinkley. ;D
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 06:04:37 pm
Vedaras, I suggest you to make a sneaker, it's probably the best option for a loner now if you want to PvP.
The reality is in almost every PvP in public locations you will have to face gangs.

Combat mode set to both, 200 players online last night, scoured the whole map, 4 players found. I would really like to see where are they, perhaps a dev can shed some light?

Actually previous night there was an event in a no-logoff location and lots of people left their alts there overnight so yea, the counter was far from reality at the night. I kicked them out in the morning, which you can clearly see in the stats:

http://www.riget.info/fonline/playerStats.php?r=24&s=1362812275&ts=1&ar=0&step=9
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: davrot on March 10, 2013, 06:33:35 pm
And you, how often you do that? Weren't you one of those NCR permanent inhabitants with plasma grenade slaves on world map to stomp on noobs?
Often enough that I stopped trying, come visit us sometimes.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Kilgore on March 10, 2013, 06:55:12 pm
I always been suspicious about the population, sometimes I think it is actually an illusion just to keep the few existing players in game.

Yep it looks sometimes like that, so some time ago I asked a GM for a piece of data which can be analysed. It was an evening with 167 characters online. No idea how many of them were out of the game, jovanka says it's about 10%, so let's assume there were about 150 players in game.

My little research indicates that out of these 167 characters online:
- 83 were not signed in any faction,
- 12 were signed in BBS+COA,
- 11 were signed in Hawks,
- 71 were in other factions.

Locations:
- 16 characters were in NCR,
- 13 characters (mostly BBS+COA) were in what looks like a TC town
- 10 characters (mostly Hawks) were in what looks like another TC town
- 4 characters in another public location (Hub or VC?)
- 10 characters in different public locations,
- 29 characters on worldmap
- 85 characters in generated locations (might be a tent, a base, or an encounter)

Conclusions:
- 10% are NCR idlers,
- less than 20% are active TC/PvP factions,
- the whole rest - casuals who only craft and go on PvE hunting

So, there is absolutely no reason to make a conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Nice_Boat on March 10, 2013, 07:10:21 pm
- the whole rest - casuals who only craft and go on PvE hunting

I was surprised when I learned that a few days ago. All I've got to say is that the possibility of spending the last 2 years playing this game without being aware of 70% of the server population (I'm not talking interaction, they're like the Loch Ness monster for other players) is just fucked up. It's like every player was sealed in his own tent/encounter/cave bubble, which is so bad from a design standpoint it's not even funny. I'm just utterly amazed that public mines didn't mitigate this problem... but then again when you see a miner, all you think about is "whose alt is that?" Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: vedaras on March 10, 2013, 07:22:15 pm
i dont try to avoid fight neither if its vs single player or vs gang, still better than standing and doing nothing so i dont need that sneaker :)
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 07:27:09 pm
No idea how many of them were out of the game, jovanka says it's about 10%

If you mean alts, a bit more, sometimes it is 10% but usually it's 15-20%.

I don't have real stats, but I have a command which among other things checks percentage
of IPs to characters online.  After idler I had records ranging from 75% up to 95%, but usually
it's 80%-85%. Before idler it was more around 75% on average, although I wasn't checking it
too often back then, because we didn't have a command for this and I had to count it manually.

Proxies might skew this a bit, but I think they make sense mostly in TC and I didn't notice much
difference during mornings for example, so it might suggest they aren't really used as much as
some people think. Also there are some players who play from the same IP, so it could even out.

Offline characters I never really counted, they are a large part of the "alts" though (relogs).
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: DocAN. on March 10, 2013, 07:28:59 pm
"whose alt is that?"

That is another reason why i made the One Alt Crusade (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,27391.0.html).
Upgrading the game with features from my suggestion can solve the problem which was mentioned above.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 07:48:48 pm
Here is 6 hour stream from what seems to be casual newbies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPtsRn4kFE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S67pZ2einUY

Just a few minutes might give some of you some perspective.

Yes, people like this play less and tend to come and go, but overall they
are still a significant part of the server. I think there might be more casuals
than pros, but pros play a lot more often and they are more visible, so on
the server at any given time it may appear like there is only same old PvP
apes playing. You may think their presence lacks any meaning, I think that
as long as they have fun playing, it doesn't.

I think the game for such people gets boring when they reach 24 level though.

They know very little about game, and have a lot of false informations (like
"you can pick people up, I just don't know how" - not about FA). The information
on the Wiki like quests etc is VERY helpful for them, they seem to check it
very often. So thanks a lot to all Wiki editors :)

It also shows some bad things in the game and interface, they struggle with
things that seem to be "obvious" for long time players and those who played
Fallouts, for example they have no idea about town/world button (no wonder,
most of the time it does nothing, the name is confusing and the placement of
the button is unfortunate, I think it would be better if the button would pop out
directly over town with preview, sadly there is a lot of "hardcoded stuff" in the
world map).
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: DeputyDope on March 10, 2013, 07:52:55 pm
And you, how often you do that? Weren't you one of those NCR permanent inhabitants with plasma grenade slaves on world map to stomp on noobs?

Weren't you one of those temporary NCR inhabitants that got stomped by plasma grenade slaves?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 07:59:32 pm
Lack of proper activities, what can I say. Players have so little encouragement to go and do something, anything which would bring the small community together. I'm still amazed the 20% of faction players, sometimes I guess that percent is even more, is still digesting the same old town control for years.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Roachor on March 10, 2013, 08:01:52 pm
at any given time I am 97% of the server population
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Tomowolf on March 10, 2013, 08:04:44 pm
Lack of proper activities, what can I say. Players have so little encouragement to go and do something, anything which would bring the small community together. I'm still amazed the 20% of faction players, sometimes I guess that percent is even more, is still digesting the same old town control for years.
T-888 You need to realize one thing : Most of the people have no clue how to do things at some efficiency to be able to join up in pvp, then if they have, they got not enough time, and you've left here with some oldschool boys, who are here like old trees with their roots and everytime - every wipe they know what to do to join it.
Just ask around newbies why they don't do PVP - lack of stuff, lack of proper alts, lack of time.
Game's( I mean game as the main aspect - the PVP Town Control) too hard for any player that isn't here for long enough or adapted to it's retarded mechanics.

Meh, let's type a wall of text.
Classic newbie, just for let's say - rocketer build would need what?
- Drugs (without some money - can't be, crafting drugs is still broken and got down symptoms)
- Armors (Need alts to craft ma mk2 or farmer to kill NCR Army)
- Rockets and Weapons (kill unity, farmer alt)
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: manero on March 10, 2013, 08:10:27 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S67pZ2einUY

0:00:10 - 0:00:40...

O M G

I can imagine me spawning in front of them with avanger and bloodlust in my eyes.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 08:13:00 pm
0:00:10 - 0:00:40...

O M G

Don't tell me you never spun ;P Everyone did.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Mrockatansky on March 10, 2013, 08:14:21 pm
Don't tell me you watched it from end to end Jovanka. I doubt anybody is able to do that.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 08:16:30 pm
Don't tell me you watched it from end to end Jovanka. I doubt anybody is able to do that.

Of course I watched it, it's a very rare gem - video from complete noobs. Not very carefully,
but I had it playing and when they seemed to have some problem I was checking it out :)
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: BenKain on March 10, 2013, 08:30:33 pm
So thanks a lot to all Wiki editors :)

Thanks Jov, we have been striving to keep the misinformation to a minimum.

Lack of proper activities, what can I say.

Lack? Of Proper?! Activities!?!?!? Have you played the actual game? I'm not talking about you going out to farm some gatling lasers than going to Reno, no I'm talking about the quests and other systems. There are a lot of really interesting features that you are demonizing for no reason, and you continue to attack people who enjoy the game for casual purposes. Not all of us fully understand the methods to the Town Control madness, and people like you are the ones making it impossible to do so. Please stop trying to force your foolish one-track mind on the rest of the community. It's becoming extremely grating.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 08:35:42 pm
Huh? What are you talking about?

Lots of interesting features ... when new players don't even meet other players in game and feel like it is deserted and long time experienced players don't even know what most of the players in the server do and can't interact with them. When I say proper activities, it doesn't have to be in pew-pew 2D shooter manner, if there would be something that would encourage me to not shoot players inside cities, but actually interact with them (and them have a reason to come to cities, not just in fear of getting shot) ... that would be fucking gold for me.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 08:45:40 pm
But they have fun together hunting raiders, shoveling shit, exploring etc.
I doubt they would want to play against your proxy apes, because they
don't play often enough to be competitive.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Surf on March 10, 2013, 08:46:44 pm
Here is 6 hour stream from what seems to be casual newbies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPtsRn4kFE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S67pZ2einUY


These videos are obviously fake, everyone knows there are no women on the internet. :P
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 08:47:45 pm
But they have fun together hunting raiders, shoveling shit, exploring etc.
I doubt they would want to play against your proxy apes, because they
don't play often enough to be competitive.

I doubt you even read what I said.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: BenKain on March 10, 2013, 08:48:35 pm
but actually interact with them (and them have a reason to come to cities, not just in fear of getting shot) ... that would be fucking gold for me.
Then go to the Hub and hand out some leather jackets and hunting rifles. Then you will see these "mysterious" players that you don't see because you stay in the northern towns fapping at previews of Reno.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 08:49:22 pm
I never felt encouraged to shoot random people in leather jackets shoveling shit in Modoc
or trading their mausers in shops. Maybe it's something about you.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 08:56:14 pm
Then go to the Hub and hand out some leather jackets and hunting rifles. Then you will see these "mysterious" players that you don't see because you stay in the northern towns fapping at previews of Reno.

Wasteland is largely empty, it would be nice to see life in other towns and have all these faction related activities have some more sense.

If, for example, TC rewards were cut down and based only on the amount of other players trading in the cities, mining and doing such activities, apes would be encouraged to be friendly and not shoot every single player they see, they would have a real reason ...

I never felt encouraged to shoot random people in leather jackets shoveling shit in Modoc
or trading their mausers in shops. Maybe it's something about you.

not just your own preference.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Kilgore on March 10, 2013, 09:05:15 pm
Well I was quite surprised that server's population comprises of Loch Ness players in more than 60-70%, especially when considering the fact that it used to be called a faction mod.

Probably because there are not enough end-game activities.

What are "end-game activities" here anyway, aside from town control?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 09:09:53 pm
Not sure, they are saying casual game-style, questing and hunting together and ... yeah. Dunno.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Nice_Boat on March 10, 2013, 09:15:36 pm
Lack? Of Proper?! Activities!?!?!? Have you played the actual game? I'm not talking about you going out to farm some gatling lasers than going to Reno, no I'm talking about the quests and other systems. There are a lot of really interesting features that you are demonizing for no reason, and you continue to attack people who enjoy the game for casual purposes. Not all of us fully understand the methods to the Town Control madness, and people like you are the ones making it impossible to do so. Please stop trying to force your foolish one-track mind on the rest of the community. It's becoming extremely grating.

From a "playing to win" perspective, people doing those "casual" activities are at the bottom of the food chain. So yeah, there's no reason to get angry because what T-888 is saying is right - people doing the quests and other similar stuff have absolutely no way of influencing the gameworld when compared to PvP players. Hell, it's so bad most PvP players aren't even aware of their existence.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to insult anyone, it's just a simple fact that the game is extremely unbalanced and PvP players have more influence than a person doing any other activity can ever hope to achieve. If you want to be a peaceful trader, well too bad - you're going to earn more doing TC, you lose the competition. If you want to run a protection/mercenary business - nope, out of luck, any bored group of PvP'ers is going to do that better than you. If you want to be the industrialist - nah bro, not going to happen, the PvP gangs have the logistics to raid the facilities with more efficiency. Even if you want to farm stuff and do PvE, you can rest assured that the despised PvP apes are doing it more efficiently.

Basically, setting up the logistics for serious, TC-tier PvP is like "godmode 1" if you were to enter any kind of competition with people doing basically anything else, so why should T-888 appreciate your "proper activities" if they offer shitty returns in terms of caps/items/power projection when compared to what he does? Why should any ambitious, intelligent player focus on anything else or care about anything else? Yes, you can enjoy other aspects of the game, but making them your primary point of focus is going to end with you trying to navigate around the PvP players, not the other way around. Basically, if you think you're going to achieve any degree of success (wealth, influence, freedom to do what you want) in this game by doing something other than PvP, you're a scrub. PvP players don't care about people doing "other activities," because for them, any encounter with a scrub means -40 rounds of 5mm ammo and +1 frag, while the scrubs have to waste massive amounts of time to navigate around the dreaded PvP apes to do whatever's on their mind. So maybe it's not the PvP players who have a problem with "foolish one-track" thinking, maybe it's the game that is simply too foolish and too one-tracked?

All in all, the devs really should consider buffing other activities, outside the TC sphere. Buff farming, buff trading, buff production - allow people who put some time and effort into those aspects of the game to become more effective than TC gangs in their field of choice. Right now, people who win at TC win at everything else. Introduce some other ways of winning, but don't do that by nerfing TC - do that by expanding the gameplay mechanics and adding some alternatives. The current "you're good at fighting, you're good at everything else" model sucks and makes people who could become influential traders or industrialists hunt radscorpions and hide in their caves doing meaningless quests.

Also, some mandatory reading to understand the PvP player mentality and why we're right and you're wrong:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 09:25:01 pm
Nicely written, I didn't thought about the subject from such a perspective.

I might that add that not only "the rest of the game" needs a buff and improvements, but also everything concerning town control, PvP activities needs some nerf. The town control box was completely out of control this session which gave immense amount of advantage to PvP players, previously it wasn't that bad as far as I know. When you look at your 45k buffout in the base, there's like no way to even consider any alternatives how to play differently.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Giftless on March 10, 2013, 09:28:13 pm
Conclusions:
- 10% are NCR idlers,
- less than 20% are active TC/PvP factions,
- the whole rest - casuals who only craft and go on PvE hunting

So, there is absolutely no reason to make a conspiracy theory.

Some of us reject PvP too due to issues in balancing; things like combat armor being thin as tissue paper versus a bluesuit using a throwing knife or a grease gun. Things like 1 on 1 looking like too fair of a fight, so the other guy has to bring in their dual-log(s). Why throw away good equipment in situations where there's no reward for fighting and everything to gain by taking "evasive action"?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 09:39:44 pm
So, there is always some percent of cheaters due to flawed game mechanics which both encourage it and allows it and they always been somehow tolerated, even now with all the improvements. There's no perfect system for that, you have to deal with it in your own way.

things like combat armor being thin as tissue paper versus a bluesuit using a throwing knife or a grease gun.

?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 09:40:05 pm
Also, some mandatory reading to understand the PvP player mentality and why we're right and you're wrong:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

If understood this, the scrub term applies to competitive players who go apeshit when someone uses "cheap" tactics. I think it actually applies mostly to our "pro" PvP players who keep whining about swarms, bombers, trolls and so on. It doesn't make any sense to apply this term to a bunch of "invisible" guys who just hang around together and shoot scorpions with their hunting rifles once in a week. They have different kind of fun, and I don't think such people really complain. Once they get bored, they simply stop playing without any rage posts on the forum. It may be hard to understand for someone who is focused on competition and beating the shit out of other people, but some people just enjoy other stuff.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Kilgore on March 10, 2013, 09:47:47 pm
The problem is that these Loch Ness players (now more than half of server's population) never emerge from the depths, because they are not encouraged to.

Btw where does your hatred towards people playing pvp in your game come from? I'm asking because it reeks of butthurt in here and the stench is.. overwhelming.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 09:49:03 pm
Maybe Jovanka doesn't see player interaction as important to the quality of the game.

Most players sit in encounters, shoot scorpions and the game is fine to her ...
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Nice_Boat on March 10, 2013, 09:53:28 pm
If understood this, the scrub term applies to competitive players who go apeshit when someone uses "cheap" tactics. I think it actually applies mostly to our "pro" PvP players who keep whining about swarms, bombers, trolls and so on.
Yes and no. The constant PvP-related whine (and the fact you guys did a fair share of knee-jerk nerfs and buffs) is scrubby as hell. Nevertheless, there's a whole lot of non-PvP players who think that TC is "cheap" or "dumb," and yet they are very ambitious when it comes to setting their goals. Even worse, they think they're somehow better because they avoid the best way of achieving them. That's way more scrubby, because the whining PvPers at least understand how the game works, while the Mad Max wannabe completely misses the point.

For example, some players fancy themselves the best medics in the wastes, build tanky characters and use FA/doc to heal other people during PvP without risking losing their stuff, and yet they completely miss the fact that they could help even more dudes by joining a PvP faction, getting a share of the TC loot and using it to help the poor and those in need.

It doesn't make any sense to apply this term to a bunch of invisible guys who just hang around together and shoot scorpions with their hunting rifles once in a week. They have different kind of fun.
How so? Are you saying they don't care whether they succeed at killing scorpions or not? Why do they even hunt scorpions? Isn't it to gain more influence, get more caps, get more and better stuff and, ultimately, win? I bet my ass those players would rather be successful and wealthy than poor and dead.

If you still try to apply the concept of a "different kind of fun" after reading this article, you obviously missed this part:
Quote from: Sirlin
Let's return to the group of scrubs. They don't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun."
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 09:56:35 pm
Maybe they have different goals, if the goal is to farm 20 gatlings to have something to shoot other apes on the evening PvP it's understandable to exploit the shit of encounters as fast as possible. If hunting is a way to hang around together with friends in a game in non-competitive manner, it just doesn't work like that. You don't have to do the stuff in the most effective manner, because it's not what matters.

T-888, if you watched the videos I linked to, you would see that the low level newbies actually visit the unguarded towns, mines and other unguarded locations, even though there isn't much to do in them. Maybe it's you who are the Loch Ness monsters who emerge from the depths only on evenings to do the PvP :)
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on March 10, 2013, 09:56:47 pm
Where is action these days?
Forum and IRC.
surprisingly im still banned from #2238
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Kilgore on March 10, 2013, 10:00:39 pm
For example, some players fancy themselves the best medics in the wastes, build tanky characters and use FA/doc to heal other people during PvP without risking losing their stuff, and yet they completely miss the fact that they could help even more dudes by joining a PvP faction, getting a share of the TC loot and using it to help the poor and those in need.

Well, I would consider someone doing that as a scrub.

*pats Jovanka on the back

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Ness_Monster

Here, a link for you, because you seem to not know the story behind Loch Ness monsters  :P
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 10:01:25 pm
T-888, if you watched the videos I linked to, you would see that the low level newbies actually visit the unguarded towns, mines and other unguarded locations, even though there isn't much to do in them. Maybe it's you who are the Loch Ness monsters who emerge from the depths only on evenings to do the PvP :)

That's until they realize when there's nothing much to do in the game at all.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Giftless on March 10, 2013, 10:02:31 pm

Keep in mind I'm not trying to insult anyone, it's just a simple fact that the game is extremely unbalanced and PvP players have more influence than a person doing any other activity can ever hope to achieve. If you want to be a peaceful trader, well too bad - you're going to earn more doing TC, you lose the competition. If you want to run a protection/mercenary business - nope, out of luck, any bored group of PvP'ers is going to do that better than you. If you want to be the industrialist - nah bro, not going to happen, the PvP gangs have the logistics to raid the facilities with more efficiency. Even if you want to farm stuff and do PvE, you can rest assured that the despised PvP apes are doing it more efficiently.

It's possible to do pretty well as a trader or industrialist; sure it isn't on the 'unlimited resource" level of the pro-TCer, but I consider never having to make extra alts such as thief, BP hunter, or slaver a form of success in its own right. ;)

All in all, the devs really should consider buffing other activities, outside the TC sphere. Buff farming, buff trading, buff production - allow people who put some time and effort into those aspects of the game to become more effective than TC gangs in their field of choice. Right now, people who win at TC win at everything else. Introduce some other ways of winning, but don't do that by nerfing TC - do that by expanding the gameplay mechanics and adding some alternatives. The current "you're good at fighting, you're good at everything else" model sucks and makes people who could become influential traders or industrialists hunt radscorpions and hide in their caves doing meaningless quests.

I dunno about buffing item production per se, but it would cool to be able to buy influence with factions which would lead to unique gear. Imagine if stat or skill bonuses were attached to armor; you'd have to wear them onto the battlefield. They're be reason to grind for gear if it would actually allow you to beat the guy who put no time in for outfitting their character.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: BenKain on March 10, 2013, 10:06:26 pm
"Loch Ness Players", that term just makes me laugh. You 'srs pr0s' always seem to forget the painfully steep learning curve. Don't get me wrong, I don't consider that to be a bad thing, it is part of the reason I am drawn to this game. But one of the first lessons of someone trying to "come up in the world" is to avoid players because most of them are trolls or greifers. Again I say, go to the Hub, hand out some leather jackets and hunting rifles, help them out. Show them that not all the apes are mean trolls, maybe teach them a thing or two. When they think to themselves, "Man I could really use some good 'ol pew-pew.", they are going to call you, and bam! you have new PvP players. Like fucking magic. Also the hardcore "pl@y 2 w!n" mindset is exactly why you have so many people who can't break into the PvP scene, and you are constantly complaining about the "Noobs" who craft and Hinkley.

I think it is great players are learning to build their own tents and crafting there, but I agree that we need some more reasons to leave the crafting bench. There are a couple of really fun PvE quests that require an organized team to complete. Please give us more! and make them repeatable! Ares is a great idea, and should have more PvP/PvE dual groups, make the loot better and I'm damn sure it would become that. The Tanker is great, I think that should be a stalwart model of how quests should work, and I wantz maor!
 
Traders, Medics, and Scientist should have more of an effect on TC, but I really don't know how that would be implemented.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Nice_Boat on March 10, 2013, 10:07:21 pm
Maybe they have different goals, if the goal is to farm 20 gatlings to have something to shoot other apes on the evening PvP it's understandable to exploit the shit of encounters as fast as possible. If hunting is a way to hang around together with friends in a game in non-competitive manner, it just doesn't work like that. You don't have to do the stuff in the most effective manner, because it's not what matters.

Quote from: Sirlin
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. (...) Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. (...) Let's return to the group of scrubs. They don't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun." Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn't nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent's mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they've either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter.

Yeah, you completely missed the point. The hilarious part is that:

Quote from: Sirlin
The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they've either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter.

... Loch Ness players know that. That's why they're Loch Ness players in the first place. Actually, their "play to win" instincts are what keeps them from socializing with other players - from their perspective, it's a high risk endeavor with no short-term gain. If they don't socialize, they can't join a gang and do TC. If they can't do TC, they run into a wall and can't advance any further because there's nothing that could increase your influence, wealth or whatever it is they want. So they get frustrated and quit without making any impact on the game. At least, that's what I believe is going on here.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 10:15:58 pm
That article is WIN! ;D
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Tomowolf on March 10, 2013, 10:18:14 pm
Sadly I read what Nice_Boat wrote, and.... this is right.
Why do we - players-testers have to go many times around this, to change something to have more fun and make it balanced?
I'm not just whinning, but - how many topics must be written to change simple things that are already in game, and do not need thousands of lines of code?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Wichura on March 10, 2013, 10:36:47 pm
Locations:
- 16 characters were in NCR,
- 13 characters (mostly BBS+COA) were in what looks like a TC town
- 10 characters (mostly Hawks) were in what looks like another TC town
- 4 characters in another public location (Hub or VC?)
- 10 characters in different public locations,
- 29 characters on worldmap
- 85 characters in generated locations (might be a tent, a base, or an encounter)

Conclusions:
- 10% are NCR idlers,
- less than 20% are active TC/PvP factions,
- the whole rest - casuals who only craft and go on PvE hunting

So, there is absolutely no reason to make a conspiracy theory.
How does now look like this mumbling about PvP players being a majority? :>


Nah, it's not funny anymore. I'm kinda shocked with above numbers. I mean I knew 2238 condition is bad, but didn't realise it's that bad.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: DeputyDope on March 10, 2013, 10:49:50 pm
Buff farming, buff trading, buff production -

buffing farming means there's more items in the game, which means there's more fun. not gonna happen.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 10:51:14 pm
Well... I win if I have fun, because it's my goal in the game - to have fun. If I don't get fun in the game, I simply press exit. I pretty much only play FOnline the way to have fun most of the time, for the smallest cost, so I almost always win. Perfect winning strategy for me. And yea, it's cheap ;D You can go butthurt about it you scrub ;D
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Kilgore on March 10, 2013, 10:51:52 pm
I mean I knew 2238 condition is bad, but didn't realise it's that bad.
Bad how? The game is being played, though probably not in the way it was intended to be played.

I mean, you could basically release single player version of 2238 and move half of server's population there and nobody would notice anything.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Senocular on March 10, 2013, 10:53:24 pm
Well... I win if I have fun, because it's my goal in the game - to have fun. If I don't get fun in the game, I simply press exit. I pretty much only play FOnline the way to have fun most of the time, for the smallest cost, so I almost always win. Perfect winning strategy for me. And yea, it's cheap ;D You can go butthurt about it you scrub ;D
How do you have fun then? By spectating TC battles using your GM powers? I'm afraid that majority of the server is not capable to do that.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Wichura on March 10, 2013, 10:58:07 pm
I mean, you could basically release single player version of 2238 and move half of server's population there and nobody would notice anything.
So I can call it bad, as it's multiplayer game after all. Or was intend to be. Hiding in tent/cave or other "generated locations". Multiplayer my ass.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: DeputyDope on March 10, 2013, 11:07:05 pm
Well... I win if I have fun, because it's my goal in the game - to have fun. If I don't get fun in the game, I simply press exit. I pretty much only play FOnline the way to have fun most of the time, for the smallest cost, so I almost always win. Perfect winning strategy for me. And yea, it's cheap ;D You can go butthurt about it you scrub ;D

sry but not everyone in this game plays with unarmed doctor characters.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 10, 2013, 11:07:24 pm
DeputyDope, but I don't really care how you play and what's your goals. I'm talking about myself.

How do you have fun then? By spectating TC battles using your GM powers? I'm afraid that majority of the server is not capable to do that.

I simply have a character you aren't aware of. Who would think about that? ::)

And yea, in the big scheme of "important things" my character doesn't matter, I don't
influence the world, blah blah, but I really don't give a flying flip about that. Soooorry.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 11:08:56 pm
I simply have a character you aren't aware of.

Loch ness monster.

I don't influence the world, blah blah, but I really don't give a flying flip about that. Sooory.

"Nessy"

No wonder the game is what it is.

The game shouldn't be developed by Nessy.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: DeputyDope on March 10, 2013, 11:14:50 pm
sry i don't get the lochness monster joke. mind explaining?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 11:16:06 pm
The part of players you never see.

- the whole rest - casuals who only craft and go on PvE hunting
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: DeputyDope on March 10, 2013, 11:19:30 pm
you guys use the term "casual" gamer like it's a bad thing. maybe those gamers have a job? just sayin'
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 11:20:51 pm
It might be inaccurate choice of words, but normally everyone should get the idea about what players were talking about.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: manero on March 10, 2013, 11:22:28 pm
It was said many times... devs know shit about their own game. Jovanka knows even less.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Kilgore on March 10, 2013, 11:26:47 pm
you guys use the term "casual" gamer like it's a bad thing. maybe those games have a job? just sayin'
Casual gamer is not a bad thing, lol. The problem is that they are like a blackhole part of this community - almost never change anything and do not interact with others. I thought this is a multiplayer game.

As Loch Ness players, they mean nothing to me. They should mean a lot to developers, as potential players that could interact with others, but hey:

And yea, in the big scheme of "important things" my character doesn't matter, I don't
influence the world, blah blah, but I really don't give a flying flip about that. Soooorry.

for our Nessy everything is alright, so nevermind.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 10, 2013, 11:29:05 pm
It was said many times... devs know shit about their own game. Jovanka knows even less.

To me it reminds Solar, he never really played the game, but he was very sure to look at flat numbers of weapon tests and argue that something, anything is balanced in the game by never truly experiencing it how it all fits together when playing.

Though he did a better job anyway.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: BenKain on March 11, 2013, 12:40:21 am
Oh man, I found a whole mess of your "LochNess Players"!
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/way-2-happy/bzxb_zps2bf25495.jpg)

Maybe if you guys would help some there as well you would get more players.

By the way, we decided to stop some PKs that were waylaying slavers.... Until a big PvP faction swept in and killed us without a question. So meh, I can't see your "Get out of your caves" argument holding any water.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: The Dunce on March 11, 2013, 01:15:14 am
How do you have fun then? By spectating TC battles using your GM powers? I'm afraid that majority of the server is not capable to do that.

It was said many times... devs know shit about their own game. Jovanka knows even less.

You guys whine way too much the game is fine. I think the game has greatly improved over the last year. I think the last few updates proved they were listening and thinking out things which a lot of players complained about. Whole game doesn't revolve around 1 persons opinion on the game. They really balanced it out people wanted fast log because they like to switch between crafters and hated waiting 3-10 minutes to relog. Then there was people who hated fast relog for pvp and they really improved it. Armor, gear everything is a lot easier and less time consuming. I think its great they really did the one size fits all in the last few updates, they fixed a lot of abuses. The game has become a lot better and faster paced.

I think half the reason why people get discouraged was before they had to level 3-10 characters gather up gear now they can just go do a little farming have enough gear for 1 day fight and people can compete who don't have the time.

As for interaction people can do what they want and do it their own style. Not everybody has to play like bbs and interact in pvp to enjoy the game.

Maybe if you guys would help some there as well you would get more players.

By the way, we decided to stop some PKs that were waylaying slavers.... Until a big PvP faction swept in and killed us without a question. So meh, I can't see your "Get out of your caves" argument holding any water.

That's the nature of this game.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 11, 2013, 02:54:33 am
The Loch ness monster is real, you can make whatever improvements you want, but that's in vain if it doesn't surface.

That should be a priority, but Nessy itself doesn't care.

By the way, we decided to stop some PKs that were waylaying slavers.... Until a big PvP faction swept in and killed us without a question. So meh, I can't see your "Get out of your caves" argument holding any water.

That's supposed to happen to scrubs, what your mad max wannabe builds can't do shit? Well, the most efficient way is to make alts for every purpose, that's how the game is played the best.

Quote
What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize his chances of winning? Here we've encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules

This time the cheap strategy is the big faction, right or your shitty characters? ;D
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Giftless on March 11, 2013, 08:25:40 am
The Loch ness monster is real, you can make whatever improvements you want, but that's in vain if it doesn't surface.

That should be a priority, but Nessy itself doesn't care.

That's supposed to happen to scrubs, what your mad max wannabe builds can't do shit? Well, the most efficient way is to make alts for every purpose, that's how the game is played the best.

This time the cheap strategy is the big faction, right or your shitty characters? ;D

Yeah, I was seeing a lot of pro "skill" in getting one-shotted by Laser Gatling insta-deaths. It's about as boring as playing against somebody who has cheat codes in place.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 11, 2013, 08:41:27 am
That's supposed to happen to scrubs, what your mad max wannabe builds can't do shit? Well, the most efficient way is to make alts for every purpose, that's how the game is played the best.

This time the cheap strategy is the big faction, right or your shitty characters? ;D

I have fun, the rest doesn't really matter to me. I don't care about "the most efficient" if it involves activities which are boring for me or things that I don't find very interesting or annoy me. It makes no sense for me to be the most efficient if I won't enjoy the game. I would rather stop playing altogether.

Look, the article makes perfect sense if you play a game like Street Fighter (that's what the author of this article used to do and that's where the "scrub" term comes from), because the only thing there you can do is to bash your opponents with fists, throw at floor etc until the match is over and there is nothing else to do. So yea, I understand what "scrub" means there. It's basically equivalent of PvP losers in FOnline, who lose a fight, try to find excuses and whine about swarms, militia, mercenaries, sneaks, bombers etc. But MMORPG games (even 2238 with so little content) are much more complex, and you can have fun in various different ways as long as you don't have too narrow mindset, players have different mindsets and different goals.

I don't really think most of Mad Maxes could be called scrubs, from my experience many of them actually enjoy the harshness a lot and don't whine about unfairness. Some might, but not more than you can see "pro" players doing this in gang issues. Calling them scrubs, noobs or bad players makes no sense, because they simply aren't trying to compete the way you do. They aren't trying to beat the shit out of everyone and be the biggest badasses on the server. They are here to have fun time with their friends, play the way they like, explore, hunt, when they stop having fun, they move to another game. And you are treated simply as a part of hostile environment of the game, nothing more - like some overpowered Enclave with a brain on top ;D

You seem to be incredibly butthurt, because some people have fun and you don't even notice them because they don't participate in TC and New Reno skirmishes like you do. What's worse, they seem to have fun together. How dare they :)

I understand you are so excited about this article, because it perfectly represents your mindset. But I'm afraid you have to simply accept that in this game some players can really have fun in different way than you do, even if you don't understand it. It really doesn't make sense to apply your mindset to everyone, it's not Street Fighter or Quake Arena match. If you play it like that, that's perfectly fine, but you have to acknowledge that some people don't and aren't interested in playing the game the same way you do.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Mrockatansky on March 11, 2013, 08:54:31 am
The discussion reminds me somehow of this:
I nevertheless agree on what has been said on the (logistic) problems that casuals are facing. But not only them. Even the most efficient abuse-farming is time consuming, breaking the game immersion and feels somehow just wrong to me. Everytime i burst a BoS npc for his avenger i wonder why i have to do this shit just to be competitive in TC.

Why can't we have a decent crafting system? I cried for it more than once.
And maybe, just maybe add a litle more WoW gameplay.
the Caravan runs Bruhja does (nice job banning this good guy for personal butthurt btw, Surf) should be implemeted like it is beeing discussed since almost two years. Just one idea where ape teams could be put to use outside reno-TC-hinkley circlejerk.
Yeah, quest development is timeconsuming for Devs alright, but i do see the need of some more instance type activities.
Ares is good fun from time to time. The level of difficulty feels well adjusted.
Maybe something similar in Sierra, dunno.

TC box is not even funny anymore. Who thought of giving shitloads of lowest ammo to player that only need 4 types of ammo and AP rokets.
It's a nice way to do buisness with the broken traders tho..... ::)

As to where the action is, well even IRC is a wall for some of these guys.
There should be frequent server messages 'Zomg get IRC client nub'
Also false expectations and turtle mindset. 'wai cant i get rich by destilling booze? Slaving is dirty buisness!' Is something I actually have been told after giving some advice  ;D
Well, false expectation because that guy expected the game to have a functionable npc trading system....

What the game needs is another 4chan raid, im afraid.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: JovankaB on March 11, 2013, 09:25:29 am
4chan people won't be back, because they wouldn't have a chance against PvP factions.
They were swarm griefers whose success was based on the fact that pretty much everyone
back then was a newbie.

Some actually tried to come back somewhere in 2010 or 2011 but couldn't do anything.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: vedaras on March 11, 2013, 10:13:24 am
Well Jovanka, talking about games fun you are right and you are wrong.
you are right in the place that there are other than pvp activities, where you can have fun, but the thing is that they are very limited ant mostly are used before you reach level 24. you can create tent near all locations, you can improve your tent with many lockers, all types of them, buy all bases, improve all your items like sledgehammers to super sledge, buy/enslave/get all possible companions, level them up, level up various characters like suicide bombers, do all quests, do raiding parties in npc locations like glow, but i bet that this is it, once you do it, you've done it, and you cant have same fun again. But pvp is something different, you can do it and do it and do it and still have fun, even if there is so much rage in forums and irc about it. I think this is even the main reason why these so called newbies/loners/or majority of players stay for such a short time in game, because they only uses those fun activities which sooner or later ends.

So yes I agree, that there are more fun activities, but i think either there should be some way thinked of, how these activities can last longer or eternal, or there should be some way to encourage that biggest part of server to pvp.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Dendito on March 11, 2013, 10:45:38 am
Quote
Make private mines undepletable, every new player must be mad as hell once he finds out he bought like 100 ores&minerals. Add undepletable HQ resources to bunker base, also the adv. workbench, that was promised to factionbases

+1
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: manero on March 11, 2013, 11:01:33 am
Make private mines undepletable, every new player must be mad as hell once he finds out he bought like 100 ores&minerals plus a parking lot out in the nowherelands - add a 10times bigger cooldown than public one if it makes sense to you.

Add undepletable HQ resources to bunker base, also the adv. workbench, that was promised to factionbases via influence point in the beggining of this season.

...and we will never see any Nessy again.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Mrockatansky on March 11, 2013, 11:07:38 am
You dont see it now either. But maybe Nessie would finally be able to compete with BoS and NCR army in terms of supplying apes.
Also the Bunker should be really hard to obtain in mid-season at best and a massive capsink for the sake of balancing. No newbie reward.

Farming is so incredibly overpowerd that one has to wonder why there was put such an effort in craftingsystem in teh first place.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Dendito on March 11, 2013, 11:17:17 am
Farming is so incredibly overpowerd that one has to wonder why there was put such an effort in craftingsystem in teh first place.

thats also true, i've spent a lot, but  A LOT of time searching for bps and i find my self farming at the end
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Rage master on March 11, 2013, 12:51:02 pm
Jov i like what u post about t888 :) but u forget about 1thing. People dont like to spend 30h to Have 5mij fun in pvp. Devs nerfed many funny and enjoyable features like caravans or crafting. If we can have more fun here in game more people will play it. I like mostly pvp and I play only to shoot something but I know many others like other side of this game but it is to hard and time eating. Think about that, harsh and fun aren't same thing
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Nice_Boat on March 11, 2013, 01:21:05 pm
I understand you are so excited about this article, because it perfectly represents your mindset. But I'm afraid you have to simply accept that in this game some players can really have fun in different way than you do, even if you don't understand it. It really doesn't make sense to apply your mindset to everyone, it's not Street Fighter or Quake Arena match. If you play it like that, that's perfectly fine, but you have to acknowledge that some people don't and aren't interested in playing the game the same way you do.

Basically what you're saying is that FOnline is a sandbox and there are different ways of finding fun within the game. It's hard not to agree with that. Nevertheless, I think you missed the fact that being the "most badass player on the server" gives you a lot of freedom to do whatever the hell you want. Believe me or not, back when towns were alive the PvP players also roleplayed, screwed around with their buddies and other people and even went on hunting trips, having the same sort of fun newbies have (before they move on to a different game). The difference is that when faced with other PvPers, bombers etc. they could handle themselves instead of being, you know, blown to bits. In the end, absolutely every player wants to overcome what he's faced with, it's just that people who don't do TC are using sub-optimal means of empowering themselves, which means they're scrubs. I dare you to find a single player that isn't happy about leveling up, skilling up, getting perks and getting guns, or whatever it is he's using. You're not going to find that player, because that player doesn't exit - and the point is that on 2238, becoming a member of a TC gang is a step up, a way to advance beyond maxing out your levels and gear. In the end, the PvPer can do all the stuff you wrote about without fearing anything and do some more demanding stuff whenever he feels like it.

What I'm saying is that the "playing to win" philosophy applies to all games that allow players to act hostile towards each other, even MMORPGs. You could say it's game theory, applied. Just read the Greedy Goblin blog if you want to see how it relates to MMORPGs (and hence FOnline), that dude is one of the richest people in the entire EVE Online (I hope you understand how competitive that game is, despite being an MMORPG and despite being a sandbox with free PvP and no safe locations, much like FOnline), so it's hard to refute what he's got to say with a simple "but I'm having fun, lel."

Anyway odds are high you're not even really being honest, because I don't think you were having fun being shot to bits numerous times by me or Kilgore, I'd even risk stating that you seemed butthurt and there were tears, so you kept returning to grief us with your tanky FA build (which obviously failed, because ammo is cheap and shooting people is fun).

The tl;dr version is that yeah, FOnline is a sandbox, the point of a sandbox is the fact that you can do whatever the hell you want if you have the skills and the logistics to do so, PvPers have them, other players don't. It's not even the PvPers fault, it's your fault for making TC the only way of getting to that point.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Kelin on March 11, 2013, 01:30:24 pm
Farming is so incredibly overpowerd that one has to wonder why there was put such an effort in craftingsystem in teh first place.
Man you don't get it at all. You want private mines full of materials which can be used for crafting at Gunrunners workbench, which means those people would be never forced to leave their safe world. Farming is not overpowered, in fact farming is the best thing this game can offer (in terms of gear obtaining).

Yesterday I was farming VC patrols and I was pretty confident nobody would enter my encounter but guess what, 6 guys spawned and I had to decide what to do. I could try to kill them, leave or die. My choice doesn't really matter, what matters is that the forced player interaction took place. That's something your concept totally lacks. Though I don't like the idea of advanced workbenches and crafting in general, I do see the purpose of putting workbenches to unsafe locations. It's an attempt to get closer to the farming concept which means you want something valuable but you also have to risk something valuable.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 11, 2013, 01:50:37 pm
Yeah, I was seeing a lot of pro "skill" in getting one-shotted by Laser Gatling insta-deaths. It's about as boring as playing against somebody who has cheat codes in place.

That's precisely a scrubs way of thinking, your own mental rules which prevent you to fully participate in certain activities and compete, what did you except if your not wearing armor? Or you don't have an appropriate character and the rest of your buddies are the same level, naive thinking scrubs. Then suddenly it is boring and your having fun differently on top of million excuses.

I have fun, the rest doesn't really matter to me. I don't care about "the most efficient" if it involves activities which are boring for me or things that I don't find very interesting or annoy me. It makes no sense for me to be the most efficient if I won't enjoy the game. I would rather stop playing altogether.

Play to win is just only one way how to look at it, there are far more effective and universal approaches to this subject.

Indifferent, at this point of discussing your and my own personal preferences are below anything objective.

Look, the article makes perfect sense if you play a game like Street Fighter (that's what the author of this article used to do and that's where the "scrub" term comes from), because the only thing there you can do is to bash your opponents with fists, throw at floor etc until the match is over and there is nothing else to do. So yea, I understand what "scrub" means there. It's basically equivalent of PvP losers in FOnline, who lose a fight, try to find excuses and whine about swarms, militia, mercenaries, sneaks, bombers etc. But MMORPG games (even 2238 with so little content) are much more complex, and you can have fun in various different ways as long as you don't have too narrow mindset, players have different mindsets and different goals.

The article is universal to any game, but it doesn't touch certain subjects relevant to 2238, like player interaction in general.

Player interaction should be key focus at any time, for all players and there's a real problem when most of players of the server simply aren't interacting with anyone, their invisible, they do not contribute to make a living, breathing game environment fun to play. Look, proper player interaction is the milestone of all successful such type of games, it doesn't matter whether the guy likes to shoot scorpions and be happy or he is some mad, refined pro that kills people with his mean look and achieves the highest level of play in his own light, but the most important thing is for players to fucking meet and play together, what this game lacks that brings players together in some, any way.

I don't really think most of Mad Maxes could be called scrubs, from my experience many of them actually enjoy the harshness a lot and don't whine about unfairness. Some might, but not more than you can see "pro" players doing this in gang issues. Calling them scrubs, noobs or bad players makes no sense, because they simply aren't trying to compete the way you do. They aren't trying to beat the shit out of everyone and be the biggest badasses on the server. They are here to have fun time with their friends, play the way they like, explore, hunt, when they stop having fun, they move to another game. And you are treated simply as a part of hostile environment of the game, nothing more - like some overpowered Enclave with a brain on top ;D

Scrubs is not only whining, and being in denial with something, it is a way of thinking. They are scrubs, because they have their own mental set up of rules that prevents them to play in the most effective fashion which intelligent players will do and then there are plenty of scrubs here on 2238 which come and whine on the forum how hard it is to farm and do anything, but yet their own play-style, way of thinking makes it so. Scrubs. They chose to not have fun in a part of game which they observe as too complicated or time consuming whether the good players will leave question marks.

You seem to be incredibly butthurt, because some people have fun and you don't even notice them because they don't participate in TC and New Reno skirmishes like you do. What's worse, they seem to have fun together. How dare they :)

Nessy, the only one who is hurt here is you, this reeks of hurt of players like us that just beat you to the wall in every aspect of the game in a pathetic display of how are you having fun. ;D

I understand you are so excited about this article, because it perfectly represents your mindset. But I'm afraid you have to simply accept that in this game some players can really have fun in different way than you do, even if you don't understand it. It really doesn't make sense to apply your mindset to everyone, it's not Street Fighter or Quake Arena match. If you play it like that, that's perfectly fine, but you have to acknowledge that some people don't and aren't interested in playing the game the same way you do.

I discuss to win, that's why I am good at a verbal play, because I'm motivated to do it and not just another bad troll like the rest of the scrubs here. Yes, even if it means insulting players to set them off balance and point just manipulate them in the direction I desire.

Like I said, personal preference is kinda below the whole point of the problem.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: BenKain on March 11, 2013, 02:11:58 pm
And you are treated simply as a part of hostile environment of the game, nothing more - like some overpowered Enclave with a brain on top ;D

Exactly! I'm not whining that we were killed. In fact, I laughed for several minutes afterwards. DMC swept in and ate us so fast we had to send in a scout to figure out what the fuck just happened! But we treated it as exactly what is was, players more powerful then us. By design or skill, it doesn't truly matter.

What does matter, are the continuing "crafter n00b" comments. So what if we garner enjoyment in a different fashion than you? Again, if you want to see more players in TC, take on a protege and train him.   
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Mrockatansky on March 11, 2013, 02:21:02 pm
Man you don't get it at all. You want private mines full of materials which can be used for crafting at Gunrunners workbench, which means those people would be never forced to leave their safe world. Farming is not overpowered, in fact farming is the best thing this game can offer (in terms of gear obtaining).

Yesterday I was farming VC patrols and I was pretty confident nobody would enter my encounter but guess what, 6 guys spawned and I had to decide what to do. I could try to kill them, leave or die. My choice doesn't really matter, what matters is that the forced player interaction took place. That's something your concept totally lacks. Though I don't like the idea of advanced workbenches and crafting in general, I do see the purpose of putting workbenches to unsafe locations. It's an attempt to get closer to the farming concept which means you want something valuable but you also have to risk something valuable.

What you don't seem to understand is that you farm because that's the most efficient way obtaining gear at the moment, the game forces you to do it in some way.
Wich is what i dont' get, you are right here. I don't want that.
I rembember farming rawmaterials -not items- beeing a fun activity.
I remember populated town workbenches including thiefes, unpatient jerks bursting you and whatnot.
Sad enough that random and rare encounters while farming are the only time you meet people out of your faction.
Maybe i was wrong about the baseworkbenches and they should be removed completely. The priv. mine and the promised adv. benches just came to my mind as examples for an unbalanced system, that has undergone so many changes, so much effort from devs and suggesting players alike, that its just a shame seeing it so useless as it is right now after having crafted the first M60 and _farmed_ the first Khans.
I don't even remember when i visited any mine for the last time.
Farm random crap, use 300 science. Its convinient but an unintended bypass imo.

So how do we solve that whole thing of contradicting mechanics?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on March 11, 2013, 03:00:16 pm
What you don't seem to understand is that you farm because that's the most efficient way obtaining gear at the moment, the game forces you to do it in some way.

The player does it, not the game, you choose how. Scrub.

So how do we solve that whole thing of contradicting mechanics?

Shows some bunch of unrelated shit and let's solve it. ;D

Why harr you so blunt?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Mrockatansky on March 11, 2013, 04:50:25 pm
Oh boy. You need a Hinkleyforum just for you alone.
Since you appeared you tell people to stu and gtfo.
You have too much spare time, too litle ego and wayyyy too many dictionaries.


>The player does it, not the game, you choose how. Scrub.

a few pages back it was
 "me understand game better than all of you, my farming is superior"
anybody else pointing out the same thing is called that new word you learned in this thread.

>Shows some bunch of unrelated shit and let's solve it.

That bunch of unrelated shit is the game you play, partly.
Smart as you are you noticed the internal contradiction yourself, calling it unrelated.
Good. Now would you care to come up with suggestions how to balance crafting/farming?

>Why harr you so blunt?

what happend to win discussion by facts?

You change like a weather pattern to feed your tiny ego, wrapping some pseudo arguments around your sad litle insult attempts.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Giftless on March 11, 2013, 05:53:45 pm
That's precisely a scrubs way of thinking, your own mental rules which prevent you to fully participate in certain activities and compete, what did you except if your not wearing armor? Or you don't have an appropriate character and the rest of your buddies are the same level, naive thinking scrubs. Then suddenly it is boring and your having fun differently on top of million excuses.

Actually I regularly suit up with combat armor and superstims if the encounter looks legit, but no way am I wasting good gear against guys who are masters of the cheap frag and broken gameplay mechanics. Keep your 10 to 1 odds, unlimited TC gear, and min/max builds out of the game and we could have interesting engagements.  ;)
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Cheesey Dean on March 11, 2013, 09:45:56 pm
Actually I regularly suit up with combat armor and superstims if the encounter looks legit, but no way am I wasting good gear against guys who are masters of the cheap frag and broken gameplay mechanics. Keep your 10 to 1 odds, unlimited TC gear, and min/max builds out of the game and we could have interesting engagements.  ;)
Agreed. I have a jack of all trades SG burster, and sometimes I just feel outclassed by faggots camping with miniguns and laser rifles. But, I don't give up and I've killed my fair share of players.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Gaizk on March 12, 2013, 12:02:56 pm
Actually I regularly suit up with combat armor and superstims if the encounter looks legit, but no way am I wasting good gear against guys who are masters of the cheap frag and broken gameplay mechanics. Keep your 10 to 1 odds, unlimited TC gear, and min/max builds out of the game and we could have interesting engagements.  ;)

That would resume why some of the nessies dont bother coming out of their caves and a big deal of this thread.

Yes a lot of them are casuals, scrubs and a combination of thereof and some nessies do know what they're doing, but in the end, they CHOOSE to be nessies given the odds of playing in here, given the hands they are dealt.

In summary (for me at best) PvP Apes got little choice to do other than shootin random stuff on the horizon, Casuals got more options but sadly the PvP apes stand in their way as does a lot of the game mechanic (which apes already triumphed upon)

The game lacks content, its just that simple... encouraging people to stick together is cool and dandy and as someone else already pointed out, its the cornerstone of making this game succesful, but devs have proven time and time again, this is THEIR little parade, they will code and rotate and whatever as long as it pleases them, the direction it pleases them, with feedback being barely looked upon (YES IT IS FUCKING TRUE, remember ther sneak burster incident everyone complained and just how LONG it lasted?) So dont hope to achieve ANYTHING taking jabs at jovanka, although I do admit it has been really fun, fun enough to make me post!

Edit: I got no real hard feelings on the devs, nor I want to encourage any ill will towards them. They have done an outstanding job on a non profit proyect. As flawed as the game is, I really had a lot of fun with it.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Brujah on April 07, 2013, 12:04:34 pm
From a "playing to win" perspective, people doing those "casual" activities are at the bottom of the food chain. So yeah, there's no reason to get angry because what T-888 is saying is right - people doing the quests and other similar stuff have absolutely no way of influencing the gameworld when compared to PvP players. Hell, it's so bad most PvP players aren't even aware of their existence.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to insult anyone, it's just a simple fact that the game is extremely unbalanced and PvP players have more influence than a person doing any other activity can ever hope to achieve. If you want to be a peaceful trader, well too bad - you're going to earn more doing TC, you lose the competition. If you want to run a protection/mercenary business - nope, out of luck, any bored group of PvP'ers is going to do that better than you. If you want to be the industrialist - nah bro, not going to happen, the PvP gangs have the logistics to raid the facilities with more efficiency. Even if you want to farm stuff and do PvE, you can rest assured that the despised PvP apes are doing it more efficiently.

Basically, setting up the logistics for serious, TC-tier PvP is like "godmode 1" if you were to enter any kind of competition with people doing basically anything else, so why should T-888 appreciate your "proper activities" if they offer shitty returns in terms of caps/items/power projection when compared to what he does? Why should any ambitious, intelligent player focus on anything else or care about anything else? Yes, you can enjoy other aspects of the game, but making them your primary point of focus is going to end with you trying to navigate around the PvP players, not the other way around. Basically, if you think you're going to achieve any degree of success (wealth, influence, freedom to do what you want) in this game by doing something other than PvP, you're a scrub. PvP players don't care about people doing "other activities," because for them, any encounter with a scrub means -40 rounds of 5mm ammo and +1 frag, while the scrubs have to waste massive amounts of time to navigate around the dreaded PvP apes to do whatever's on their mind. So maybe it's not the PvP players who have a problem with "foolish one-track" thinking, maybe it's the game that is simply too foolish and too one-tracked?

All in all, the devs really should consider buffing other activities, outside the TC sphere. Buff farming, buff trading, buff production - allow people who put some time and effort into those aspects of the game to become more effective than TC gangs in their field of choice. Right now, people who win at TC win at everything else. Introduce some other ways of winning, but don't do that by nerfing TC - do that by expanding the gameplay mechanics and adding some alternatives. The current "you're good at fighting, you're good at everything else" model sucks and makes people who could become influential traders or industrialists hunt radscorpions and hide in their caves doing meaningless quests.

Also, some mandatory reading to understand the PvP player mentality and why we're right and you're wrong:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

I'll just ignore most of the shit and comment on this post that caught my attention.


Indeed, any sort of activity that doesn't include PVP will never be as good as PVP itself, but that's not the whole story.


Also made me remember when we hunted together using PVP apes instead of doing it the regular way with PVE alts solo:



Or even quests that anyone can solo with enough strategy:



It's not about how overpowered apes are compared to casual players, it's about how hard it is for casual players to become apes, these activities can be completely doable by these loners hidden in ranger safehouses we will never meet, but it takes a long time and massive effort so most don't even bother.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: avv on April 07, 2013, 02:43:29 pm
It's not about how overpowered apes are compared to casual players, it's about how hard it is for casual players to become apes, these activities can be completely doable by these loners hidden in ranger safehouses we will never meet, but it takes a long time and massive effort so most don't even bother.

It's also because to be an ape you have to renounce everything you used to be about. If you had ideals, roleplay or anything that would restrict you, all of that needs to go and your goals will center around defeating the enemy and helping your team to accomplish this task.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: The Good Doctor on April 10, 2013, 04:48:26 am
(http://i50.tinypic.com/20l1fgw.png)

mah sides ;D
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: manero on April 10, 2013, 10:31:30 am
well when i see that server is full of people, like 128 now, i imagine that at least some of them are looking for fight. So were do they fight? as at least in good old times non tc main pvp ground was reno, now i am idling in reno commercial entrance like in ncr, and no one comes, so i started thinking maybe people fight elswhere these days? where is the magical place?

It's called TLA mk2.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Stration on April 10, 2013, 11:43:22 am
99% of players and 100% of developers here are suffering from an acute case of tunnel vision, and that's why the game is doomed.

R.I.P.

Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: PLAYB0Y on April 10, 2013, 10:17:18 pm
PvP is dead. Make it up with.  I did.  :(
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Glumer on April 10, 2013, 10:38:42 pm
PvP is dead. Make it up with.  I did.  :(

pvp is on another server
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: LittleBoy on April 10, 2013, 11:01:01 pm
pvp is on another server

True, true.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: dskpnk on April 12, 2013, 07:51:42 pm
Action ? look TLA  :o
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Cyber Jesus on April 12, 2013, 08:01:31 pm
Unless you like fighting bluesuits, you can consider pvp officially dead.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on April 12, 2013, 09:02:23 pm
Only nabs, casuals left it seems, it will be funny when some of them will try to use a combat armor and it will be like the best new invention with pro true stories on forum.

The players left on 2238 seems like the same players developers are, now no need to worry about combat balance or anything like that. I'm guessing there's no cheating at all, the server is like fixed.

If the next update will be PvP oriented I will laugh my fucking ass off. ;D
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Mike Crosser on April 12, 2013, 09:20:27 pm
Action ? look TLA  :o
You have a multiple personality complex or what?
On the one hand you are making threads begging devs to do something to stop players from leaving,on the other on you are spamming random threads with "2238 dead","go TLA","everyone is at TLA","look TLA".
What the hell man?
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: T-888 on April 12, 2013, 09:28:53 pm
Many players left were there is some activity, it is only normal that some still want to play 2238 and good that someone still has patience to write an opinion for the million time which most probably is going to be ignored or rejected for some dumb reasons, but why the hell he should try to encourage players to play in a server which is boring and stale?

I think it is only normal that he encourages to play somewhat healthy server in meantime until something happens here.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: vedaras on April 12, 2013, 10:55:14 pm
jup, people and players want whats best for 2238, this is for sure, even now there are more plaayers in forum than in server itself, it is because people read the forum, people care about the news in game, they want to develop in good way, just know in the game itself we reached stage when its hard to spend your time on it really enjoying the time spent, so no harsh feelings for 2238 all will return, we all want to see the game being improved.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: manero on April 13, 2013, 12:20:54 am
...it is because people read the forum, people care about the news in game, they want to develop in good way.

That's not true. For example i visit this site only to laught at incompetent developers  ;D Im also sure im not the only one  ;)
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: tanke plasma on April 13, 2013, 01:14:23 am
NO fucking action game is dead
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: PLAYB0Y on April 13, 2013, 09:51:37 am
It's time for another revolution    !!!      Vote for wipe  :-* 

 (https://i.cubeupload.com/6bTCWt.jpg)
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: Serey on April 13, 2013, 11:27:21 am
I miss the old FO:2238 days.

And I'm thinking, whats happened. I remember the time, when game was pretty much playable, and there were few major thing to change (like alts), and little more than few small things to make this game the best in the world. There was a time, when fun was all around the server, no matter what you do. Some times I've logged in just to talk with the people, no need to pwnzz da nabz etc. Every one had a chance to play as he likes. Some was fighting at the north, some was just standing at NCR gates and talk about the weather but the world was alive. Thieves and bombers were very annoing but you could get used to it, avoiding them, take few pals and go hunting. Game had the point, no world domination, no caves full of loot, but make this game better. I remember when players were listened, when devs poped up in NCR and made something fun, when they talked to the people about changes and stuff. And now? It's empty world for me. I know no one gives a shit about what I've said, but im dissapointed. I can't say all changes are bad, becouse there is some awesome features implemented since the begining but many things are fucked up. Many of players even don't remember me (like i care) but I've played for a long, long time. And I have many awesome memories about this game, but i regret that I remember how it was back then. I regret that i see what happened with 2238 since the time i played it for the first time. I regret that i saw what can be done with this game. Well, enough of whining. Peace to all players that remember the old times.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: LittleBoy on April 13, 2013, 03:05:21 pm
That's not true. For example i visit this site only to laught at incompetent developers  ;D Im also sure im not the only one  ;)
No, you are not alone.
Title: Re: Where is action these days ?
Post by: tanke plasma on April 13, 2013, 07:27:53 pm
Yes Back before wipe!