I always been suspicious about the population, sometimes I think it is actually an illusion just to keep the few existing players in game. I can count approximately the players who do some action in cities, players who idle in them, but when I do the math there's always some huge hole it in and it makes me wonder where is the rest of them and why I never see them no matter where I go or what I do and if their really there what could they possibly be doing all the time for all this time in the session?
Hinkley.
What else do you do in game besides being always on some gear-less cheap character yelling how cool are you?
I don't remember you being in a city, geared and actually encourage some players to come. So, it is kinda funny you ask questions like this.
i see no problem in being strong even without gear, and you are weak even with the best of it, so cry moar, all i can say...
Combat mode set to both, 200 players online last night, scoured the whole map, 4 players found. I would really like to see where are they, perhaps a dev can shed some light?
I don't know what you two butthurt apes are flinging shit at each other about, but every town was taken last night. Three of our finest factions clogged the the top of my map so badly last night.
Combat mode set to both, 200 players online last night, scoured the whole map, 4 players found. I would really like to see where are they, perhaps a dev can shed some light?
And you, how often you do that? Weren't you one of those NCR permanent inhabitants with plasma grenade slaves on world map to stomp on noobs?Often enough that I stopped trying, come visit us sometimes.
I always been suspicious about the population, sometimes I think it is actually an illusion just to keep the few existing players in game.
- the whole rest - casuals who only craft and go on PvE hunting
No idea how many of them were out of the game, jovanka says it's about 10%
"whose alt is that?"
And you, how often you do that? Weren't you one of those NCR permanent inhabitants with plasma grenade slaves on world map to stomp on noobs?
Lack of proper activities, what can I say. Players have so little encouragement to go and do something, anything which would bring the small community together. I'm still amazed the 20% of faction players, sometimes I guess that percent is even more, is still digesting the same old town control for years.T-888 You need to realize one thing : Most of the people have no clue how to do things at some efficiency to be able to join up in pvp, then if they have, they got not enough time, and you've left here with some oldschool boys, who are here like old trees with their roots and everytime - every wipe they know what to do to join it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S67pZ2einUY
0:00:10 - 0:00:40...
O M G
Don't tell me you watched it from end to end Jovanka. I doubt anybody is able to do that.
So thanks a lot to all Wiki editors :)
Lack of proper activities, what can I say.
Here is 6 hour stream from what seems to be casual newbies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPtsRn4kFE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S67pZ2einUY
But they have fun together hunting raiders, shoveling shit, exploring etc.
I doubt they would want to play against your proxy apes, because they
don't play often enough to be competitive.
but actually interact with them (and them have a reason to come to cities, not just in fear of getting shot) ... that would be fucking gold for me.Then go to the Hub and hand out some leather jackets and hunting rifles. Then you will see these "mysterious" players that you don't see because you stay in the northern towns fapping at previews of Reno.
Then go to the Hub and hand out some leather jackets and hunting rifles. Then you will see these "mysterious" players that you don't see because you stay in the northern towns fapping at previews of Reno.
I never felt encouraged to shoot random people in leather jackets shoveling shit in Modoc
or trading their mausers in shops. Maybe it's something about you.
Lack? Of Proper?! Activities!?!?!? Have you played the actual game? I'm not talking about you going out to farm some gatling lasers than going to Reno, no I'm talking about the quests and other systems. There are a lot of really interesting features that you are demonizing for no reason, and you continue to attack people who enjoy the game for casual purposes. Not all of us fully understand the methods to the Town Control madness, and people like you are the ones making it impossible to do so. Please stop trying to force your foolish one-track mind on the rest of the community. It's becoming extremely grating.
Conclusions:
- 10% are NCR idlers,
- less than 20% are active TC/PvP factions,
- the whole rest - casuals who only craft and go on PvE hunting
So, there is absolutely no reason to make a conspiracy theory.
things like combat armor being thin as tissue paper versus a bluesuit using a throwing knife or a grease gun.
Also, some mandatory reading to understand the PvP player mentality and why we're right and you're wrong:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
If understood this, the scrub term applies to competitive players who go apeshit when someone uses "cheap" tactics. I think it actually applies mostly to our "pro" PvP players who keep whining about swarms, bombers, trolls and so on.Yes and no. The constant PvP-related whine (and the fact you guys did a fair share of knee-jerk nerfs and buffs) is scrubby as hell. Nevertheless, there's a whole lot of non-PvP players who think that TC is "cheap" or "dumb," and yet they are very ambitious when it comes to setting their goals. Even worse, they think they're somehow better because they avoid the best way of achieving them. That's way more scrubby, because the whining PvPers at least understand how the game works, while the Mad Max wannabe completely misses the point.
It doesn't make any sense to apply this term to a bunch of invisible guys who just hang around together and shoot scorpions with their hunting rifles once in a week. They have different kind of fun.How so? Are you saying they don't care whether they succeed at killing scorpions or not? Why do they even hunt scorpions? Isn't it to gain more influence, get more caps, get more and better stuff and, ultimately, win? I bet my ass those players would rather be successful and wealthy than poor and dead.
Let's return to the group of scrubs. They don't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun."
Where is action these days?surprisingly im still banned from #2238
Forum and IRC.
For example, some players fancy themselves the best medics in the wastes, build tanky characters and use FA/doc to heal other people during PvP without risking losing their stuff, and yet they completely miss the fact that they could help even more dudes by joining a PvP faction, getting a share of the TC loot and using it to help the poor and those in need.
T-888, if you watched the videos I linked to, you would see that the low level newbies actually visit the unguarded towns, mines and other unguarded locations, even though there isn't much to do in them. Maybe it's you who are the Loch Ness monsters who emerge from the depths only on evenings to do the PvP :)
Keep in mind I'm not trying to insult anyone, it's just a simple fact that the game is extremely unbalanced and PvP players have more influence than a person doing any other activity can ever hope to achieve. If you want to be a peaceful trader, well too bad - you're going to earn more doing TC, you lose the competition. If you want to run a protection/mercenary business - nope, out of luck, any bored group of PvP'ers is going to do that better than you. If you want to be the industrialist - nah bro, not going to happen, the PvP gangs have the logistics to raid the facilities with more efficiency. Even if you want to farm stuff and do PvE, you can rest assured that the despised PvP apes are doing it more efficiently.
All in all, the devs really should consider buffing other activities, outside the TC sphere. Buff farming, buff trading, buff production - allow people who put some time and effort into those aspects of the game to become more effective than TC gangs in their field of choice. Right now, people who win at TC win at everything else. Introduce some other ways of winning, but don't do that by nerfing TC - do that by expanding the gameplay mechanics and adding some alternatives. The current "you're good at fighting, you're good at everything else" model sucks and makes people who could become influential traders or industrialists hunt radscorpions and hide in their caves doing meaningless quests.
Maybe they have different goals, if the goal is to farm 20 gatlings to have something to shoot other apes on the evening PvP it's understandable to exploit the shit of encounters as fast as possible. If hunting is a way to hang around together with friends in a game in non-competitive manner, it just doesn't work like that. You don't have to do the stuff in the most effective manner, because it's not what matters.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. (...) Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. (...) Let's return to the group of scrubs. They don't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun." Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn't nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent's mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.
Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they've either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter.
The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they've either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter.
Locations:How does now look like this mumbling about PvP players being a majority? :>
- 16 characters were in NCR,
- 13 characters (mostly BBS+COA) were in what looks like a TC town
- 10 characters (mostly Hawks) were in what looks like another TC town
- 4 characters in another public location (Hub or VC?)
- 10 characters in different public locations,
- 29 characters on worldmap
- 85 characters in generated locations (might be a tent, a base, or an encounter)
Conclusions:
- 10% are NCR idlers,
- less than 20% are active TC/PvP factions,
- the whole rest - casuals who only craft and go on PvE hunting
So, there is absolutely no reason to make a conspiracy theory.
Buff farming, buff trading, buff production -
I mean I knew 2238 condition is bad, but didn't realise it's that bad.Bad how? The game is being played, though probably not in the way it was intended to be played.
Well... I win if I have fun, because it's my goal in the game - to have fun. If I don't get fun in the game, I simply press exit. I pretty much only play FOnline the way to have fun most of the time, for the smallest cost, so I almost always win. Perfect winning strategy for me. And yea, it's cheap ;D You can go butthurt about it you scrub ;DHow do you have fun then? By spectating TC battles using your GM powers? I'm afraid that majority of the server is not capable to do that.
I mean, you could basically release single player version of 2238 and move half of server's population there and nobody would notice anything.So I can call it bad, as it's multiplayer game after all. Or was intend to be. Hiding in tent/cave or other "generated locations". Multiplayer my ass.
Well... I win if I have fun, because it's my goal in the game - to have fun. If I don't get fun in the game, I simply press exit. I pretty much only play FOnline the way to have fun most of the time, for the smallest cost, so I almost always win. Perfect winning strategy for me. And yea, it's cheap ;D You can go butthurt about it you scrub ;D
How do you have fun then? By spectating TC battles using your GM powers? I'm afraid that majority of the server is not capable to do that.
I simply have a character you aren't aware of.
I don't influence the world, blah blah, but I really don't give a flying flip about that. Sooory.
- the whole rest - casuals who only craft and go on PvE hunting
you guys use the term "casual" gamer like it's a bad thing. maybe those games have a job? just sayin'Casual gamer is not a bad thing, lol. The problem is that they are like a blackhole part of this community - almost never change anything and do not interact with others. I thought this is a multiplayer game.
And yea, in the big scheme of "important things" my character doesn't matter, I don't
influence the world, blah blah, but I really don't give a flying flip about that. Soooorry.
It was said many times... devs know shit about their own game. Jovanka knows even less.
How do you have fun then? By spectating TC battles using your GM powers? I'm afraid that majority of the server is not capable to do that.
It was said many times... devs know shit about their own game. Jovanka knows even less.
Maybe if you guys would help some there as well you would get more players.
By the way, we decided to stop some PKs that were waylaying slavers.... Until a big PvP faction swept in and killed us without a question. So meh, I can't see your "Get out of your caves" argument holding any water.
By the way, we decided to stop some PKs that were waylaying slavers.... Until a big PvP faction swept in and killed us without a question. So meh, I can't see your "Get out of your caves" argument holding any water.
What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize his chances of winning? Here we've encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules
The Loch ness monster is real, you can make whatever improvements you want, but that's in vain if it doesn't surface.
That should be a priority, but Nessy itself doesn't care.
That's supposed to happen to scrubs, what your mad max wannabe builds can't do shit? Well, the most efficient way is to make alts for every purpose, that's how the game is played the best.
This time the cheap strategy is the big faction, right or your shitty characters? ;D
That's supposed to happen to scrubs, what your mad max wannabe builds can't do shit? Well, the most efficient way is to make alts for every purpose, that's how the game is played the best.
This time the cheap strategy is the big faction, right or your shitty characters? ;D
Make private mines undepletable, every new player must be mad as hell once he finds out he bought like 100 ores&minerals. Add undepletable HQ resources to bunker base, also the adv. workbench, that was promised to factionbases
Make private mines undepletable, every new player must be mad as hell once he finds out he bought like 100 ores&minerals plus a parking lot out in the nowherelands - add a 10times bigger cooldown than public one if it makes sense to you.
Add undepletable HQ resources to bunker base, also the adv. workbench, that was promised to factionbases via influence point in the beggining of this season.
Farming is so incredibly overpowerd that one has to wonder why there was put such an effort in craftingsystem in teh first place.
I understand you are so excited about this article, because it perfectly represents your mindset. But I'm afraid you have to simply accept that in this game some players can really have fun in different way than you do, even if you don't understand it. It really doesn't make sense to apply your mindset to everyone, it's not Street Fighter or Quake Arena match. If you play it like that, that's perfectly fine, but you have to acknowledge that some people don't and aren't interested in playing the game the same way you do.
Farming is so incredibly overpowerd that one has to wonder why there was put such an effort in craftingsystem in teh first place.Man you don't get it at all. You want private mines full of materials which can be used for crafting at Gunrunners workbench, which means those people would be never forced to leave their safe world. Farming is not overpowered, in fact farming is the best thing this game can offer (in terms of gear obtaining).
Yeah, I was seeing a lot of pro "skill" in getting one-shotted by Laser Gatling insta-deaths. It's about as boring as playing against somebody who has cheat codes in place.
I have fun, the rest doesn't really matter to me. I don't care about "the most efficient" if it involves activities which are boring for me or things that I don't find very interesting or annoy me. It makes no sense for me to be the most efficient if I won't enjoy the game. I would rather stop playing altogether.
Look, the article makes perfect sense if you play a game like Street Fighter (that's what the author of this article used to do and that's where the "scrub" term comes from), because the only thing there you can do is to bash your opponents with fists, throw at floor etc until the match is over and there is nothing else to do. So yea, I understand what "scrub" means there. It's basically equivalent of PvP losers in FOnline, who lose a fight, try to find excuses and whine about swarms, militia, mercenaries, sneaks, bombers etc. But MMORPG games (even 2238 with so little content) are much more complex, and you can have fun in various different ways as long as you don't have too narrow mindset, players have different mindsets and different goals.
I don't really think most of Mad Maxes could be called scrubs, from my experience many of them actually enjoy the harshness a lot and don't whine about unfairness. Some might, but not more than you can see "pro" players doing this in gang issues. Calling them scrubs, noobs or bad players makes no sense, because they simply aren't trying to compete the way you do. They aren't trying to beat the shit out of everyone and be the biggest badasses on the server. They are here to have fun time with their friends, play the way they like, explore, hunt, when they stop having fun, they move to another game. And you are treated simply as a part of hostile environment of the game, nothing more - like some overpowered Enclave with a brain on top ;D
You seem to be incredibly butthurt, because some people have fun and you don't even notice them because they don't participate in TC and New Reno skirmishes like you do. What's worse, they seem to have fun together. How dare they :)
I understand you are so excited about this article, because it perfectly represents your mindset. But I'm afraid you have to simply accept that in this game some players can really have fun in different way than you do, even if you don't understand it. It really doesn't make sense to apply your mindset to everyone, it's not Street Fighter or Quake Arena match. If you play it like that, that's perfectly fine, but you have to acknowledge that some people don't and aren't interested in playing the game the same way you do.
And you are treated simply as a part of hostile environment of the game, nothing more - like some overpowered Enclave with a brain on top ;D
Man you don't get it at all. You want private mines full of materials which can be used for crafting at Gunrunners workbench, which means those people would be never forced to leave their safe world. Farming is not overpowered, in fact farming is the best thing this game can offer (in terms of gear obtaining).
Yesterday I was farming VC patrols and I was pretty confident nobody would enter my encounter but guess what, 6 guys spawned and I had to decide what to do. I could try to kill them, leave or die. My choice doesn't really matter, what matters is that the forced player interaction took place. That's something your concept totally lacks. Though I don't like the idea of advanced workbenches and crafting in general, I do see the purpose of putting workbenches to unsafe locations. It's an attempt to get closer to the farming concept which means you want something valuable but you also have to risk something valuable.
What you don't seem to understand is that you farm because that's the most efficient way obtaining gear at the moment, the game forces you to do it in some way.
So how do we solve that whole thing of contradicting mechanics?
That's precisely a scrubs way of thinking, your own mental rules which prevent you to fully participate in certain activities and compete, what did you except if your not wearing armor? Or you don't have an appropriate character and the rest of your buddies are the same level, naive thinking scrubs. Then suddenly it is boring and your having fun differently on top of million excuses.
Actually I regularly suit up with combat armor and superstims if the encounter looks legit, but no way am I wasting good gear against guys who are masters of the cheap frag and broken gameplay mechanics. Keep your 10 to 1 odds, unlimited TC gear, and min/max builds out of the game and we could have interesting engagements. ;)Agreed. I have a jack of all trades SG burster, and sometimes I just feel outclassed by faggots camping with miniguns and laser rifles. But, I don't give up and I've killed my fair share of players.
Actually I regularly suit up with combat armor and superstims if the encounter looks legit, but no way am I wasting good gear against guys who are masters of the cheap frag and broken gameplay mechanics. Keep your 10 to 1 odds, unlimited TC gear, and min/max builds out of the game and we could have interesting engagements. ;)
From a "playing to win" perspective, people doing those "casual" activities are at the bottom of the food chain. So yeah, there's no reason to get angry because what T-888 is saying is right - people doing the quests and other similar stuff have absolutely no way of influencing the gameworld when compared to PvP players. Hell, it's so bad most PvP players aren't even aware of their existence.
Keep in mind I'm not trying to insult anyone, it's just a simple fact that the game is extremely unbalanced and PvP players have more influence than a person doing any other activity can ever hope to achieve. If you want to be a peaceful trader, well too bad - you're going to earn more doing TC, you lose the competition. If you want to run a protection/mercenary business - nope, out of luck, any bored group of PvP'ers is going to do that better than you. If you want to be the industrialist - nah bro, not going to happen, the PvP gangs have the logistics to raid the facilities with more efficiency. Even if you want to farm stuff and do PvE, you can rest assured that the despised PvP apes are doing it more efficiently.
Basically, setting up the logistics for serious, TC-tier PvP is like "godmode 1" if you were to enter any kind of competition with people doing basically anything else, so why should T-888 appreciate your "proper activities" if they offer shitty returns in terms of caps/items/power projection when compared to what he does? Why should any ambitious, intelligent player focus on anything else or care about anything else? Yes, you can enjoy other aspects of the game, but making them your primary point of focus is going to end with you trying to navigate around the PvP players, not the other way around. Basically, if you think you're going to achieve any degree of success (wealth, influence, freedom to do what you want) in this game by doing something other than PvP, you're a scrub. PvP players don't care about people doing "other activities," because for them, any encounter with a scrub means -40 rounds of 5mm ammo and +1 frag, while the scrubs have to waste massive amounts of time to navigate around the dreaded PvP apes to do whatever's on their mind. So maybe it's not the PvP players who have a problem with "foolish one-track" thinking, maybe it's the game that is simply too foolish and too one-tracked?
All in all, the devs really should consider buffing other activities, outside the TC sphere. Buff farming, buff trading, buff production - allow people who put some time and effort into those aspects of the game to become more effective than TC gangs in their field of choice. Right now, people who win at TC win at everything else. Introduce some other ways of winning, but don't do that by nerfing TC - do that by expanding the gameplay mechanics and adding some alternatives. The current "you're good at fighting, you're good at everything else" model sucks and makes people who could become influential traders or industrialists hunt radscorpions and hide in their caves doing meaningless quests.
Also, some mandatory reading to understand the PvP player mentality and why we're right and you're wrong:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
It's not about how overpowered apes are compared to casual players, it's about how hard it is for casual players to become apes, these activities can be completely doable by these loners hidden in ranger safehouses we will never meet, but it takes a long time and massive effort so most don't even bother.
well when i see that server is full of people, like 128 now, i imagine that at least some of them are looking for fight. So were do they fight? as at least in good old times non tc main pvp ground was reno, now i am idling in reno commercial entrance like in ncr, and no one comes, so i started thinking maybe people fight elswhere these days? where is the magical place?
PvP is dead. Make it up with. I did. :(
pvp is on another server
Action ? look TLA :oYou have a multiple personality complex or what?
...it is because people read the forum, people care about the news in game, they want to develop in good way.
That's not true. For example i visit this site only to laught at incompetent developers ;D Im also sure im not the only one ;)No, you are not alone.