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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: T-888 on December 03, 2012, 12:52:11 am
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It's a question I've been asking myself and the more I ask the less relevant the question becomes, thus I find no real answer, thoughts are just splitting, dividing and in denial with each other when I weight different points of view.
What if ...
That will not fix fr problem.
For start you can write in native code library, which will generate uniq token for each client beased on his hardware, forbid to launch clients in sandbox and on vmware, and check this tokens on client login.
Just ask Atom to write it, one day will be enought.
I didn't think about it before. The unique token in theory could be tied to a character and upon creating a new character the unique token witch is the same for the client could be checked, if the unique token is already in use and in database, it might disallow new character creation until the previous token, character is deleted. Meaning a player literally would have to live on one character at a time.
Multiple alts allow you to experience the game in many ways, try out something new without losing the ability to experience what you already have, and what you are. New character doesn't always mean it is a new tool witch the player will store at a specific location, for a specific use and take advantage of it on demand as we speak, but personality, character witch the player fulfills at his own intentions and capabilities.
The question is, does such a change hold any value, possibility to improve the game at all? Maybe it would be just trading one positive aspect of the game for another, in the end it would balance out and we would be sitting at the same old zero. What if more alts is the key to balance, one, more than one? Two, three at any given time for a player to use? What would be the magic number? Or you'd stick with the one character and be happy as the game would go on?
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alts ruin the game in my opinion. people shouldnt be able to be everything, otherwise, why have skill points to begin with?
some pk'er/griefer wouldnt be as strong. i dunno....i like the idea of no alts.
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Maybe have some sort of four alt limit accompanied by a private bunker for each player to streamline rolling over equipment from old characters to the new.
I think the main problem with this though are the skillsets which force alting (sneak and lockpick being next to impossible to multiclass). With an alt limit you might see players stop playing certain character types altogether and focus exclusively on PvE farming.
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If it can prevent fastrelog waves, trollspamming and mercswarming in pvp it'd be great.
But if it blocks fast relogs outside pvp, it's going to be just infuriating. The game encourages alts and dual logging in so many ways that doing some of the current tasks would be pain in the ass. I'll list some:
- Looting when farming
- Repairing
- Sciencing
- Crafting
- Hauling
- Bartering
- Getting bases
- Doing some quests
So if I had to wait the log-off cooldown for example when I want to repair my car, it'd be very bad. And don't tell me to call my friends to fix the car, it's going to take longer than the login timer anyway.
Before this kind of "working" fixes for fast relog/dual log are made, best fix some (most) of the reasons that encourage to do dual log and fastrelog in first place.
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So if I had to wait the log-off cooldown for example when I want to repair my car, it'd be very bad. And don't tell me to call my friends to fix the car, it's going to take longer than the login timer anyway.
I meant a situation where it is impossible to have more than one character, you wouldn't have the option to "wait to re-log", you wouldn't have the ability to have more than one character, all your abilities would be closely connected with interaction. If you didn't pick repair on your character, you would have to use someone's else service, for example.
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While I think that this is actually a very valid and probably important topic to bring up, a big problem (which I've seen mentioned in other topics, if I recall correctly) is the uncertainty regarding the direction of the game. That will probably reflected in the answers you get here, too. For example:
alts ruin the game in my opinion. people shouldnt be able to be everything, otherwise, why have skill points to begin with?
While being a valid opinion, have you considered the difference between tb and rt combat? I tend to agree with the underlying notion, nevertheless there are some builds, while being good in one mode, that are utter dogshit in the other. Meaning without alts either some people simply can't play together or take a big hit in efficiency. You could argue that is part of a role playing game, but personally I prefer my char sucking sometimes because of the choices I made, not because the gameplay mechanics are completely schizophrenic.
I think the main problem with this though are the skillsets which force alting (sneak and lockpick being next to impossible to multiclass).
Is it the skillsets that force alting or may it be the entitlement of the playerbase and the reluctance to accept that one's character may actually be mediocre at what he sets out to do? That's an honest question, personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.
What seems important to me with this is either to set a direction for the game and go with it, or - if consensus on the topic at hand can be achieved - tweak the game to whatever will emerge out of this topic. Fwiw I strongly believe that a one character per player rule would make for a great game, although it may be a very different one. One thing to keep in mind is that different players enjoy different things. I know there are players who gladly pursue and get enjoyment out of things that a lot of the louder voices on the forum perceive as annoying grind - farming, crafting, stealing etc. Which I assume wouldn't mean gear starvation for organized groups, but rather that acquisition of valuables wouldn't depend on alts and efficient usage, but more on recruiting and teamplay. At first glance I can't see anything wrong with that, although we'd very much have to keep player numbers in mind here. While I personally would like that change, I am the first to admit that it would break down in no time without the player numbers to support it, turning some of the larger conflicts from "whoever has the most alts, wins" to "whoever can lure a dedicated crafter into their faction, wins".
Another thing to keep in mind here is that while I may argue that skillsets are not necessarilly what forces people to alt, some of the gameplay mechanics definitely may do. Take companions for instance (just because it's one of the things I've witnessed a lot firsthand). You regularly run into players who have alts just for checking bars via fast relog. I've actually gotten to talk to some of them, all upstanding individuals, I don't have any problem with them personally, for the record. But I believe it brings up a problem with the way the game works (which has been brought up in several other topics, as well), when players decide to go that route, because it is by far the most efficient one to achieve a personal goal. Again, there is an argument to be made for the situation changing radically with a one character rule. Less need for several NPCs, less prevalence of power builds to begin with, thus merely average NPCs becomming more acceptable, etc. But it may also lead to a massive source of frustration (which obviously shouldn't be what the mechanics should aim for), that's something I just can't tell at the moment. Bottom line is: right now I wouldn't call the game exactly balanced and a major change like this most likely wouldn't be able to stand on its own, that is something important to keep in mind.
Most importantly, though:
Multiple alts allow you to experience the game in many ways, try out something new without losing the ability to experience what you already have, and what you are. New character doesn't always mean it is a new tool witch the player will store at a specific location, for a specific use and take advantage of it on demand as we speak, but personality, character witch the player fulfills at his own intentions and capabilities.
Personally I'm a sucker for the idea of trying to survive with whatever limited skillset you happen to have. Quite obviously I cannot speak for everyone else and as much as I'd like to get rid of alts alltogether, my personal boundry for that is exactly what you stated here and I'd hate to see this option taken away from players who enjoy a variety of gameplay systems, at the very least under the current set of gameplay mechanics.
I'm going to get a lot of shit for this, but imo one source of the problem are the skill mechanics of the original F1/F2. There's a reason Beth changed them for the modernizations. They're overspecialized and quite frankly fucking terrible. At the very least they are near impossible to translate into any form of balanced multiplayer experience (which, admittedly, is partly the fault of it being multiplayer, not the mechanics themselves). Point being: maybe that particular game design fossil needs a few serious overhauls, before we actually can achieve balanced diversity and realistically get rid of alts (if that would turn out to be the desire of the playerbase).
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isnt it about making a decision and sticking with it, though? like, take D&D. if i asked my DM if i could run 2 characters, he'd try to stab me. as far as lockpicking and sneak, isnt it only hard to multiclass only if youre trying to hardcore max out a character? doesnt have to be perfect character. just round him out the way you want.
of course, im not a competitive player, im here for fun and slight RP. i dont care if it takes me months to max out my level.
maybe my opinion doesnt really count that much. hell i dont even use alts.
sure love this game though!
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I meant a situation where it is impossible to have more than one character, you wouldn't have the option to "wait to re-log", you wouldn't have the ability to have more than one character, all your abilities would be closely connected with interaction. If you didn't pick repair on your character, you would have to use someone's else service, for example.
So what if my team is afk? I can't farm because my team is offline. Or what if my team needs me to farm but I don't want to do it at the present time? Then the whole team can't farm because they are missing a key character. Yes this is team-based game but some players like to get their materials alone at their own pace, nothing will change this. You can't change the nature of players with game changes, but you can change the game to fit the nature of mostly all players. Something for everyone.
Personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.
Tradeoffs are okay, but in our case being bad in something means you have to WAIT longer or plaing can't do it. Example: lockpick. Less lockpick, more fails, more waiting. Repair: more grinding of materials because condition transfer is smaller. Barter: more grinding of materials because merchant price is worse. Science: less materials, thus more grinding. Basically all support skills mean that with less, you get more waiting or grinding. And the grinding isn't even fun in most cases, take a look at repair for example.
Then we got some dead-end tradeoffs.
Example: carryweight. Lowest cw is 18. You can barely carry your gear and then, NOTHING. Okay you can buy buffout and psycho to boost it, but selling stuff is going to take forever with such low cw. Your life is utter hell because everything you carry needs to be handled in small parts.
Fwiw I strongly believe that a one character per player rule would make for a great game, although it may be a very different one.
It wouldn't end up that way with Skycast's idea. People would still make alts but they'd have to wait for the cd timer.
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Well, nice dreaming :) I believe that it would lead into specialization of charaters, of course, and neccesitity to trade and offer stuff and skills among other factions and individuals. It could be a long-awaited non combat Player vs. Player element , that i miss a lot in this game.
On other way, i dont believe that some clever guy would not bypass it. Or at least a lot of "second" computer alts would support primary powerbuilds.
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isnt it about making a decision and sticking with it, though? like, take D&D. if i asked my DM if i could run 2 characters, he'd try to stab me. as far as lockpicking and sneak, isnt it only hard to multiclass only if youre trying to hardcore max out a character? doesnt have to be perfect character. just round him out the way you want.
Yeah, I get the notion and I think you're not wrong. The thing is (and I am sure someone will correct me, if I am wrong) there are some hard limits on skills. It's not just that you can't do some things well with an average skill, but that you can't do some things at all. As far as I know Lockpick is an example for that. Also in D&D your GM has the liberty to create scenarios that give value to such a char. Here that is not the case, he is necessary for some tasks but of limited use virtually anywhere else. Of course, as you said, that only applies if you want to minmax and doesn't apply if you go a more moderate route. Which is fine, but may not be applicable in any competitive context. One char per player would get rid of that problem, too, however with mechanics in place as they are, emphasis might just shift to a different aspect that may be just as undesirable. It may not be a major detriment, but it is something to keep in mind.
Tradeoffs are okay, but in our case being bad in something means you have to WAIT longer or plaing can't do it. Example: lockpick. Less lockpick, more fails, more waiting. Repair: more grinding of materials because condition transfer is smaller. Barter: more grinding of materials because merchant price is worse. Science: less materials, thus more grinding. Basically all support skills mean that with less, you get more waiting or grinding.
Agreed, this would be an undesirable outcome.
Ideally this grind would not be necessary, conflict would be less gear dependant and so forth. But in reality chances are the team with more willingness to grind would come out on top. Hence my assumption that mechanics would need to be changed in order to make this viable.
It wouldn't end up that way with Skycast's idea. People would still make alts but they'd have to wait for the cd timer.
I meant a situation where it is impossible to have more than one character, you wouldn't have the option to "wait to re-log", you wouldn't have the ability to have more than one character, all your abilities would be closely connected with interaction. If you didn't pick repair on your character, you would have to use someone's else service, for example.
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yes, first of all we should not go into pvp and ask ourselves why normal player who doenst even pvp has tons of alts? and will he do well and find the game enjoyable without alts?
the sad thing is that the game is getting worse in this situation, now you must have a lockpicker for blueprints and all, and same shit in many ways, and some time ago you could have made more universal characters and do successfully in battles with them. So this problem is first to be solved in my opinion, only then fast relogging or dual logging :)
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While I think that this is actually a very valid and probably important topic to bring up, a big problem (which I've seen mentioned in other topics, if I recall correctly) is the uncertainty regarding the direction of the game. That will probably reflected in the answers you get here, too. For example:
Direction of the game, hmm. Seems like a matter of opinion, what's important is to look at the greater good. Now that is something we could try to evaluate, more precisely, what type of game play would suit the common player better. That is why I asked the question, whether such a change holds possibility and value to improve the game play at all, maybe it's too extreme and needs a gold middle way, and that is why I asked whether some sort of middle way exists, "magic number."
Imagine some point, where the common player out there have enough space to variate and explore, search and experience the game while he isn't all to restricted, but players who like to have a challenge, surviving on their own their own, fulfilling their desires without being all to much at a disadvantage. Currently now a player witch likes to have that special something, that challenge. The sense of survival, you most probably know what I mean. Point is, those players are at a massive disadvantage. It's cool to make "the best build ever" and carry on as how you can at the best of your own capabilities and wits, but once it comes to interaction, competing your always below the average, no matter what you do some sort of alt will be better than you. You mentioned liking "to suck at something", but what if you suck at pretty much everything? That is how I see it, any of my alts will do anything you can and better. No trade, no choices, no consequences.
Now my idea, what if the alt amount was purely decreased and limited, but not just 1? Okay, maybe 2 alts per player. Now there is still limited choices between the both characters, they both can't do everything, the amount of alts isn't infinitive, wouldn't that improve the situation? You can still be special(compete and not be below the average) and players don't feel all too restricted, restrained.
Is there a gold middle way for this?
Is it the skillsets that force alting or may it be the entitlement of the playerbase and the reluctance to accept that one's character may actually be mediocre at what he sets out to do? That's an honest question, personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.
Mediocre, is something I see as a standard based on the total amount of ability to variate, to make choices. Once the player is limited to one character, he might feel all too restrained. The standard can be raised, like giving another tag skill, raising the total amount of skill points gained per level, as an example. Each character, player would still have the same standard just on a different scale, they all still would be mediocre based on everyone else.
But then again, we could allow an alt more or less.
... While I personally would like that change, I am the first to admit that it would break down in no time without the player numbers to support it ...
I'm thinking ahead a little bit, this is what i was afraid would going to happen, players too "boxed."
No sense of independence?
Another thing to keep in mind here is that while I may argue that skillsets are not necessarilly what forces people to alt, some of the gameplay mechanics definitely may do. Take companions for instance (just because it's one of the things I've witnessed a lot firsthand). You regularly run into players who have alts just for checking bars via fast relog. I've actually gotten to talk to some of them, all upstanding individuals, I don't have any problem with them personally, for the record. But I believe it brings up a problem with the way the game works (which has been brought up in several other topics, as well), when players decide to go that route, because it is by far the most efficient one to achieve a personal goal. Again, there is an argument to be made for the situation changing radically with a one character rule.
Yes, acknowledged. Like Repair, for example, who couldn't live without some sort of way to maintain your own equipment, at least just a little bit, with low amount of Repair it is impossible and having to interact each time for that would be too time consuming and frustrating for some, like you mentioned before "who gets in with friends of the best crafting or the most". So, attacking features is definitely a viable option, for example, purely raising the amount of Repair skill gained from tools used to Repair something, anything, but make them break down more often and maybe a little bit more common than usually.
Most importantly, though:Personally I'm a sucker for the idea of trying to survive with whatever limited skillset you happen to have. Quite obviously I cannot speak for everyone else and as much as I'd like to get rid of alts alltogether, my personal boundry for that is exactly what you stated here and I'd hate to see this option taken away from players who enjoy a variety of gameplay systems, at the very least under the current set of gameplay mechanics.
Yes, yes getting rid of alts, that is interesting. I once thought just like you, getting rid of alts all together, but when I thought this far, I snapped and started to think, what about the consequences if any. :)
one source of the problem are the skill mechanics of the original F1/F2.
Point being: maybe that particular game design fossil needs a few serious overhauls, before we actually can achieve balanced diversity and realistically get rid of alts (if that would turn out to be the desire of the playerbase).
I'm not a fan of merging skills, I really am not, but sometimes it really does feel like the right thing to do, merging just an example of the modern style. Yeah, serious overhauls, never ending question of what everyone else would think about them (too far from cannon, this is not fallout anymore etc. etc.)
Well, nice dreaming :)
Not anymore. Let's say Skycast blew my mind. He also likes rumors.
It wouldn't end up that way with Skycast's idea. People would still make alts but they'd have to wait for the cd timer.
No, there are more clever ways how to change that in a game with more than one alt. What you are saying is your own idea. :)
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Is there a gold middle way for this?
One char has to be able to do all of these PERFECTLY:
- Do PVE and pvp
- Carry
- Get everything needed to do pvp and pve (guns, drugs, armors, ammo)
- Get logistics (bases, cars)
For example at this moment slavery quest is best way to get caps in my opinion. Alternatives have to be created so that everyone don't have to join slavers or make an alt. The alternatives have to be precisely as profitable to discourage alting attempts.
Stealing is the best way to get superstims, an alternative is needed so that people don't have to make alts. And once again, the alternative has to be exactly as effective as stealing.
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Is it the skillsets that force alting or may it be the entitlement of the playerbase and the reluctance to accept that one's character may actually be mediocre at what he sets out to do? That's an honest question, personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.
The Lockpick is a sore point for me actually, since early on it forced me to decide that BP hunting and any of the in-game dungeons (Tanker Quest, The Glow, Ares) were simply not worthwhile. Imagine any other RPG that gives you a hard time when opening all treasure chests--I don't think I can name one. Even in hardcore party-based D&D, a dedicated thief has a useful spread of abilities--including sneak, steal, dodging in combat, etc. The fact that a useful thief kit can't be put together in fonline (sneak and lockpick together, imagine that) strikes me as a failure of some of the most basic RPG standards out there.
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One char has to be able to do all of these PERFECTLY:
- Do PVE and pvp
- Carry
- Get everything needed to do pvp and pve (guns, drugs, armors, ammo)
- Get logistics (bases, cars)
Something universal, witch applies to everything and any situation, possible outcome of choices leading to same results with less efficiency between the gaps. I'm familiar with your idea, but it can't be done like you ask, depends on how do you define "perfectly?" To some extent in witch any player can compete or be same as everyone else? That is hard task to do, this is what I and Malice was talking about. Serious overhauls needed for this, that includes to dumb down the impact of the choices player makes (maybe not necessarily in a game where it is all about specialization, but questionable), for example, you can raise the base accuracy for all weapon skills by a large margin and skill points re-directed less effective, so any character can invest less or the same and be better overall despite the same margin of gap between the characters specialization. Filter?
Small Guns 50% base chance. 1% of skill increases 1% chance to hit. Players start off with 0 weapon skill, to understand more easily.
Power build invests 50 SP and gains 100% chance to hit at certain distance with 50% weapon skill.
Best build ever invests only 25, as best build ever wants to focus on other skills more and gains 75% chance to hit with 25 weapon skill.
or
Small Guns 75% base chance, 1% of skill points invested increases 0.5% chance to hit.
Power build invests 50 skill-points and gains 100%(weapon skill 50%) chance to hit at certain distance.
Best build ever invests only 25 and gains 87,5%(weapon skill 25%) chance to hit.
Both invested the same amount of Skill points at both scenarios. The gap between both build effectiveness is twice less, so ultimately best build ever will have an easier time competing, less at disadvantage by not specializing so much.
This principle is universal and can be applied to everything, carry weight, Science, Repair, OD etc. etc.
For example at this moment slavery quest is best way to get caps in my opinion. Alternatives have to be created so that everyone don't have to join slavers or make an alt. The alternatives have to be precisely as profitable to discourage alting attempts.
Stealing is the best way to get superstims, an alternative is needed so that people don't have to make alts. And once again, the alternative has to be exactly as effective as stealing.
This is way too simple, of course it's either a new quest for an alternative or just fixed crafting table in witch you can craft those SS equally well, just experience the way of how you gain caps, gain SS differently.
The fact that a useful thief kit can't be put together in fonline (sneak and lockpick together, imagine that) strikes me as a failure of some of the most basic RPG standards out there.
Actually it's doable, but not very practical, same goes for sneaker/steal character(although I've seen that kind of and they are more harder to detect and react on, so better in general, but still very high investment for that, the character is useless otherwise).
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personally I'd like to see anything that encourages cooperation rather than competition. If one char per unique ID would help in that effort, lets try it is my vote. One dimensional characters are unimaginative and unrealistic. A 278 hp bg char with no CW weak as a 12 yo girl, stinks like cowshit, has the intelligence of special needs kid and looks like they're face was hit with a flaming frying pan (low st with weapon handling, 1 ch, low int, 1ch).
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Weak, stupid and ugly. Though those one dimensional characters are comical and funny, the game has never been about realism, nor forcing the player to be creative, the player plays the game how he likes, nobody is to tell me or you what characters we should play, anything is possible and we should keep it that way. That is the beauty of the game, we might as well see characters witch purely focuses only on crafting not combat, that is just as one dimensional.
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Best Trollthread.
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see
Diablo 2 & bnet
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One char has to be able to do all of these PERFECTLY:
- Do PVE and pvp
- Carry
- Get everything needed to do pvp and pve (guns, drugs, armors, ammo)
- Get logistics (bases, cars)
For example at this moment slavery quest is best way to get caps in my opinion. Alternatives have to be created so that everyone don't have to join slavers or make an alt. The alternatives have to be precisely as profitable to discourage alting attempts.
Stealing is the best way to get superstims, an alternative is needed so that people don't have to make alts. And once again, the alternative has to be exactly as effective as stealing.
I know it's possible to get cw, universal crafting, barter, and base logistics into one character. Barter has gotten me caps and drugs at a moderate level of effectiveness, so slavery and thieving are not 100% necessary for enjoying the game.
The problems arise with the prohibitively high lockpick skill needed for BP hunting, and the fact that you need a dedicated combat character to farm CA. I'd say at the bare minimum 2-3 characters are needed to develop & maintain one's infrastructure.
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The first Char i registered this season works also that way. I made him to support my faction in the buildup phase.
But then what? You tell me you want to play factionslave the whole season?
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So ya. Idea on how this could work.
All Special can be boosted 2 points. A straight 5-5-5-5-5-5-5 build can be made to 7-7-7-7-7-7-7. Each first point requires a quest that takes an actual month to finish. Not in doing the quest, just a wait period. Doing the quest takes 30-60 minutes, wait a month to get Special boosted from the quest. Second point of Special will take 2 months. Only one Special can be boosted at a time. Will take all season to get every possible boost to Special.
Skill points can be indefinitely boosted to 300 through books, advanced books, magazines and "teacher" quests. Enough study and proper skill should allow people to do it all. Skill points will work exactly like they do now, but books obtained will be able to boost skill points. Special and INT determines how many skill points are added depending on book. 7 ST will boost big guns and unarmed/melee points more. 9 CH will boost barter and speech more. INT overall determines how many points are added. Advanced books are needed to boost a skill over 200 points. All books are obtained through footlockers or quests of various difficulty.
Someone can grind quests and sell books to other players.
It is possible to max all skill points and nicely boost Special, but will take a player all season of hard work.
PVP players can still level up a fighter in a day to a fighters level and then take quests on his off-time to gain crafting abilities or CH and INT to start slaving, doing more quests or whatever.
PVE/crafting players can still level up how they wish but can slowly work on their PVP skills until they are up to a fighters level.
Drugs!
A new drug to boost carry weight or: 1 buffout acts normal, 2 buffout doubles carryweight or until 196 max.
The useless booze-like items should boost carry weight a bit.
Slaving tattoos can be removed with laser surgery from a doctor. That VC guy seems to have the equipment.
This will make a PVP dedicated player able to do all other stuff as well as a PVE/Crafter to be able to someday PVP.
What is best about this idea is that a lvl21 player is not just stuck with the same abilities all season, someone can keep playing and keep boosting their skills.
And most important, PVPers will slowly become even tougher or more skilled in more weapons. PVP will be brutal by end of season if players took Special boosting quests and have a source of books to read.
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What you describe is what i expected when i first heard about this game.
It could be a way to get much closer to that playing the chosen one feel.
A very drastic cut though.
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Gifted would solve a lot of problems, so would changing the values of sp to skill %, it takes all your max possible sp and then some to max out a skill which this game seems to demand.
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I know it's possible to get cw, universal crafting, barter, and base logistics into one character. Barter has gotten me caps and drugs at a moderate level of effectiveness, so slavery and thieving are not 100% necessary for enjoying the game.
The problems arise with the prohibitively high lockpick skill needed for BP hunting, and the fact that you need a dedicated combat character to farm CA. I'd say at the bare minimum 2-3 characters are needed to develop & maintain one's infrastructure.
The problem is that the game is not suitable to limit the player to only one character Just because how the game is made, serious overhauls are required and then the question raises whether it's worth the effort. Technically it's possible, despite the player being restricted to play on his character only on the PC he created it. Best thing a player could hope for and for something witch is reasonable, realistic is for is a limited set of alts just like you say.
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Random general ideas witch you don't seem to understand how they would shape the game, don't talk about something you don't understand. No offense, it's just the way it is.
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So ya. Idea on how this could work.
All Special can be boosted 2 points. A straight 5-5-5-5-5-5-5 build can be made to 7-7-7-7-7-7-7. Each first point requires a quest that takes an actual month to finish. Not in doing the quest, just a wait period. Doing the quest takes 30-60 minutes, wait a month to get Special boosted from the quest. Second point of Special will take 2 months. Only one Special can be boosted at a time. Will take all season to get every possible boost to Special.
Skill points can be indefinitely boosted to 300 through books, advanced books, magazines and "teacher" quests. Enough study and proper skill should allow people to do it all. Skill points will work exactly like they do now, but books obtained will be able to boost skill points. Special and INT determines how many skill points are added depending on book. 7 ST will boost big guns and unarmed/melee points more. 9 CH will boost barter and speech more. INT overall determines how many points are added. Advanced books are needed to boost a skill over 200 points. All books are obtained through footlockers or quests of various difficulty.
Someone can grind quests and sell books to other players.
It is possible to max all skill points and nicely boost Special, but will take a player all season of hard work.
PVP players can still level up a fighter in a day to a fighters level and then take quests on his off-time to gain crafting abilities or CH and INT to start slaving, doing more quests or whatever.
PVE/crafting players can still level up how they wish but can slowly work on their PVP skills until they are up to a fighters level.
Drugs!
A new drug to boost carry weight or: 1 buffout acts normal, 2 buffout doubles carryweight or until 196 max.
The useless booze-like items should boost carry weight a bit.
Slaving tattoos can be removed with laser surgery from a doctor. That VC guy seems to have the equipment.
This will make a PVP dedicated player able to do all other stuff as well as a PVE/Crafter to be able to someday PVP.
What is best about this idea is that a lvl21 player is not just stuck with the same abilities all season, someone can keep playing and keep boosting their skills.
And most important, PVPers will slowly become even tougher or more skilled in more weapons. PVP will be brutal by end of season if players took Special boosting quests and have a source of books to read.
For me this deserves a serious dedicated suggestion topic with a lot of details to discuss about.
I don t know if that would really work,but it has no weak point at first glance.
Just dreaming about NO people wishing for the wipe since pvp is so perfectly organized.
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mhhhhhh i played most of last seassion with one char... so it is possiable to play with one char
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mhhhhhh i played most of last seassion with one char... so it is possiable to play with one char
Agree,its not perfect crafter,not perfect PVP killer, not perfect PVE destroyer,its not perfect barter..but itll do. Just need a little bit imagination.
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mhhhhhh i played most of last seassion with one char... so it is possiable to play with one char
Yeah, I also have 1 'main' character which can do almost everthing. Some like this one:
http://www.nitue.net/#fcp/direct!id=7341&pass=3
High outdoor, every profession, barter, nice for PVE (high Melee Damage, 200 HP, 70 AC), almost every 'quest' perk, 133 party points for mercs/followers. I pasted it, cause maybe it can be helpful for someone.
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has no weak point at first glance
And what about new players joining halfway a session to be confronted with all the dedicated longtime players have more points in special and skills?
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And what about new players joining halfway a session to be confronted with all the dedicated longtime players have more points in special and skills?
There would be pretty much the same difference there is now.Of course some sort of cap should be somewhat necessary,although i would agree that an old character must be at least a little better than an ape trained in a couple of days.
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He is talking about his own utopia.
Most of what is presented in those thoughts are some miss-matched, randomly dished out ideas that wouldn't be rational to apply in practice and wouldn't achieve any goal for the greater good. Very easy to elaborate on this.
So ya. Idea on how this could work.
All Special can be boosted 2 points. A straight 5-5-5-5-5-5-5 build can be made to 7-7-7-7-7-7-7. Each first point requires a quest that takes an actual month to finish. Not in doing the quest, just a wait period. Doing the quest takes 30-60 minutes, wait a month to get Special boosted from the quest. Second point of Special will take 2 months. Only one Special can be boosted at a time. Will take all season to get every possible boost to Special.
It'll take all session to grind, I surely don't have to explain how that is bad. Not to mention the fact of eliminating any role-playing game elements this game still retains despite everything being closely connected to alts. We'd have a picture of old drugs, players running around with close to max special points allowing a smaller window of opportunity on how to differ from other players. Just re-name the game to FPS-Online 2238, while at it.
The 3th special point will take a half year to achieve and might as well allow a fourth tag skill by wasting your whole life!
Skill points can be indefinitely boosted to 300 through books, advanced books, magazines and "teacher" quests. Enough study and proper skill should allow people to do it all. Skill points will work exactly like they do now, but books obtained will be able to boost skill points. Special and INT determines how many skill points are added depending on book. 7 ST will boost big guns and unarmed/melee points more. 9 CH will boost barter and speech more. INT overall determines how many points are added. Advanced books are needed to boost a skill over 200 points. All books are obtained through footlockers or quests of various difficulty.
Everyone running around with 300 skills, why have the skills at all if everyone is equal? So just some guys have fun time grinding some books forever and once a player decides to start playing mid session, he is like comparable to nothing? Why not allow to make characters with full stats and spare the player the time of grinding all that shit?
Oh come there is no point to sink any deeper in this, all that is just preposterous, random stuff.
Someone can grind quests and sell books to other players.
Wow, more grind and items witch you have in your inventory can be traded, needs a serious thought on this one.
It is possible to max all skill points and nicely boost Special, but will take a player all season of hard work.
Nice, just purely gold man, let's attach more stuff on how to mindlessly waste time. Game requires hard work to be good, the idea of the century.
PVP players can still level up a fighter in a day to a fighters level and then take quests on his off-time to gain crafting abilities or CH and INT to start slaving, doing more quests or whatever.
PVE/crafting players can still level up how they wish but can slowly work on their PVP skills until they are up to a fighters level.
Exactly, or whatever. Hey, look currently a player can make a fighter in one day and he doesn't have to do the extra shit you are proposing for him to do in order to be equal in his 'off-time' and he has more time to focus on other parts of the game witch are fun, instead of some pointless grind to achieve the ultimate perfection for any character.
A new drug to boost carry weight or: 1 buffout acts normal, 2 buffout doubles carryweight or until 196 max.
The useless booze-like items should boost carry weight a bit.
The only rational thought in that post I believe. Despite there are better ways than that how to allow players to take more stuff, that way discouraging looter alts, like allowing to carry more weight with overweight debuff and a non-combat perk like Pack rat or Strong back moved to support. I don't see how players will carry more drugs just for the sake of carry weight, it's a nice option, but as I mentioned above, there are better ways how to stimulate optimal carry weight for any character.
Slaving tattoos can be removed with laser surgery from a doctor. That VC guy seems to have the equipment.
The whole point of the slaver tattoo is that it's forever, once a slaver, always a slaver. Otherwise we would have situations were guy is going to the Vault City doctor for the 36th time to do a laser surgery on his head, because once again he decided not be a slaver. While at it let's make Metzeger blind so he doesn't notice your slaver tattoo missing, or allow plastic surgery, fucking up your face countless times to just some guy to not recognize you? Cool stuff, really.
This will make a PVP dedicated player able to do all other stuff as well as a PVE/Crafter to be able to someday PVP.
Someday, wasting time on the game and telling yourself that soon you will be able to be just like everyone else who got old by playing, there are some who already have rotten and decomposed by mother nature in order to be good and compete in the game.
Anyway, most of that will be useless as creating an 10INT skilled craft alt is much more easier than getting old or dying from bored what is attached to grind.
What is best about this idea is that a lvl21 player is not just stuck with the same abilities all season, someone can keep playing and keep boosting their skills.
Hey play the game maybe, there is level 24 cap now and like crafting professions already have close to no requirement as the only is very small amount of skill points that a well made character can easy obtain and still be somehow viable for something else. It's just the players before me on this topic already prove that.
And most important, PVPers will slowly become even tougher or more skilled in more weapons. PVP will be brutal by end of season if players took Special boosting quests and have a source of books to read.
The most importantly is not to trash this topic with garbage, because I am not willing to brain damage myself of reading something like that again.
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I'm willing to try anything, so if I were presented with a wipe in which I could only have one alt, or limited to say four, I'd give it a shot and evaluate it then.
Like Malice said, I like the limitations on characters, and while I have a lot of alts, I've also spent a great deal of time playing with single characters. They certainly couldn't do it all, but they were able to do what was needed to support themselves only.
I think changes like not being limited to one crafting profession were great in this regard. Also, the support perks were a great idea in my opinion.
Instead of merging skills to save special points, possibly a small change in the way the skill usage is calculated in some scripts. I'll use repair as an example.
It makes no sense that my 251% Small Gun sniper cannot maintain his weapon without a completely seperate skill. If the SG skill was incorporated into the repair skill in some way when applied to weapons repaired in the small gun class only, it might alleviate the need for some (not all) players to have a dedicated repair alt for maintaining weapons.
So with 50% repair and 200% SG, if the SG was factored in maybe 25% (200/4 = 50%) that would give 100 repair when repairing small guns only, plus the tool skill boost added on top. Yet it wouldn't make any difference when attempting to repair Energy Weapons.
It would be possible to have other skills add modifiers in the same way as well. Lockpick and steal, etc.
Something similar might allow a character to still be good at the things in their "class", but still not able to do it all.
I don't believe a complete overhaul is needed though. Small changes like support perks went a long way without really affecting the base game.
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for the purposes of preventing fast relog in pvp TC
maybe it can just prevent fast log after you have been killed by a player in a TC event, and then do your check for token thing?
Is that hard to program?
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It makes no sense that my 251% Small Gun sniper cannot maintain his weapon without a completely seperate skill. If the SG skill was incorporated into the repair skill in some way when applied to weapons repaired in the small gun class only, it might alleviate the need for some (not all) players to have a dedicated repair alt for maintaining weapons.
THIS is brilliant, how can you know that much about guns, and cant maintain your gun?
Another suggestion I had in another thread that will probably be overlooked by devs is
make your ''tradeskills'' different than your combat skills, so you don't compromise your small guns ability for the sake of pumping repair.
so small guns, big guns, melee, etc would be on combat skills
Repair, first aid, outdoorsman etc would be on your tradeskills. this opens the way for more balance, and diverse characters.
So on levelup you get your combat skills points to spend, and tradeskill points to spend separately
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for the purposes of preventing fast relog in pvp TC
maybe it can just prevent fast log after you have been killed by a player in a TC event, and then do your check for token thing?
Is that hard to program?
There would be no need for that, the token could be tied to combat timeout and player who initializes it would have a CD to re-log or just some sort of skill penalty and it would work everywhere, not just TC. So, that guy you killed in Reno or in Gecko mine couldn't come and apply pain on your ass instantly once he is dead with some alt.
If it would be simple, it would be implemented long ago, I refuse to believe that nobody else has thought about it, anyway it's not my idea. Just requires specific know-how, from what I heard.
It makes no sense that my 251% Small Gun sniper cannot maintain his weapon without a completely seperate skill. If the SG skill was incorporated into the repair skill in some way when applied to weapons repaired in the small gun class only, it might alleviate the need for some (not all) players to have a dedicated repair alt for maintaining weapons.
I have to say, very good idea.
Talking about Repair, Science, recently I had the idea how to decrease the need of those kind of one purpose alts, even more. I remembered that once a player can't doctor himself, he can either ask a player or use some sort of doctor services in towns and nobody is forced to alt. I thought hey, why not do the same thing for Repair and Science. Bring equipment to a trader who offers such luxury with a simple dialog of something like "I have equipment to disassemble/to repair, do you provide such service?", so you have some fancy option to chose a single item, target a certain group of items, or apply that to all items in inventory. Each % of item to repair could cost like 0.025% of base value for that particular item, most probably even less if you look at how most items look after combat or those farmed from encounters. Repairing as an alternative could also cost only raw material and the trader/service provider would ask very, very small fee. Disassembling items work in a similar fashion, the cost might as well depend on base value of the item or condition or both.
So, you could bring large portion of items and repair them at once, or disassemble, making the need of an special alt for that only secondary, alleviating the need so to speak.
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Not a bad idea T-888.
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A repair NPC that repairs your currently equipped armor or weapon for a fee would be a nice thing to have.
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I know most of what I posted was a bad idea, but it jumpstarted thread with good ideas.
Another idea is for mine foremen to have a drug that can only be directly taken, cant buy and put into inventory. For a price someone can greatly boost CW, 100% addiction chance and addiction fades away in usual time. Drug would lower damage resistance and PE. Addiction and downsides are so PVP looters are more disadvantaged.
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The token limit combined with relog times wouldn't be bad either. I know plenty of people who got along just fine with less than 5 characters in previous wipes, that was Crafting, Gathering, Repairing, and Combat. Heck even if you want to limit it to 1 character there was a beautiful suggestion about bringing books back in for non-combat skills like repair and such, they wouldn't max you out, but getting to the 100% needed for most things wouldn't be hard on 1 character, if they put back in the Tag perk at level 12 even that would help. This season is the worst when it comes to the need for multiple characters, and truthfully the other seasons did ok without having 12 alts. I think it would seriously help clean up TC too, so that people could actually fight people, rather than just a swarm of alts and mercs. (though there will always be mercs)
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He is talking about his own utopia.
Most of what is presented in those thoughts are some miss-matched, randomly dished out ideas that wouldn't be rational to apply in practice and wouldn't achieve any goal for the greater good. Very easy to elaborate on this.
It'll take all session to grind, I surely don't have to explain how that is bad. Not to mention the fact of eliminating any role-playing game elements this game still retains despite everything being closely connected to alts. We'd have a picture of old drugs, players running around with close to max special points allowing a smaller window of opportunity on how to differ from other players. Just re-name the game to FPS-Online 2238, while at it.
The 3th special point will take a half year to achieve and might as well allow a fourth tag skill by wasting your whole life!
Everyone running around with 300 skills, why have the skills at all if everyone is equal? So just some guys have fun time grinding some books forever and once a player decides to start playing mid session, he is like comparable to nothing? Why not allow to make characters with full stats and spare the player the time of grinding all that shit?
Oh come there is no point to sink any deeper in this, all that is just preposterous, random stuff.
Wow, more grind and items witch you have in your inventory can be traded, needs a serious thought on this one.
Nice, just purely gold man, let's attach more stuff on how to mindlessly waste time. Game requires hard work to be good, the idea of the century.
Exactly, or whatever. Hey, look currently a player can make a fighter in one day and he doesn't have to do the extra shit you are proposing for him to do in order to be equal in his 'off-time' and he has more time to focus on other parts of the game witch are fun, instead of some pointless grind to achieve the ultimate perfection for any character.
The only rational thought in that post I believe. Despite there are better ways than that how to allow players to take more stuff, that way discouraging looter alts, like allowing to carry more weight with overweight debuff and a non-combat perk like Pack rat or Strong back moved to support. I don't see how players will carry more drugs just for the sake of carry weight, it's a nice option, but as I mentioned above, there are better ways how to stimulate optimal carry weight for any character.
The whole point of the slaver tattoo is that it's forever, once a slaver, always a slaver. Otherwise we would have situations were guy is going to the Vault City doctor for the 36th time to do a laser surgery on his head, because once again he decided not be a slaver. While at it let's make Metzeger blind so he doesn't notice your slaver tattoo missing, or allow plastic surgery, fucking up your face countless times to just some guy to not recognize you? Cool stuff, really.
Someday, wasting time on the game and telling yourself that soon you will be able to be just like everyone else who got old by playing, there are some who already have rotten and decomposed by mother nature in order to be good and compete in the game.
Anyway, most of that will be useless as creating an 10INT skilled craft alt is much more easier than getting old or dying from bored what is attached to grind.
Hey play the game maybe, there is level 24 cap now and like crafting professions already have close to no requirement as the only is very small amount of skill points that a well made character can easy obtain and still be somehow viable for something else. It's just the players before me on this topic already prove that.
The most importantly is not to trash this topic with garbage, because I am not willing to brain damage myself of reading something like that again.
all of this.
read all of this before you post anymore.
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jebus, what is this dark sorcery and nerd talk about?
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jebus, what is this dark sorcery and nerd talk about?
T-888 asks "what if we could get girlfriends?"
Fonline RIP.
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all of this.
read all of this before you post anymore.
I can't! I get halfway through it and my memory is overfilled and my comprehensive abilities have a buffer overrun. It's an endless loop logical error!