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Author Topic: What if ...  (Read 9063 times)

What if ...
« on: December 03, 2012, 12:52:11 am »

It's a question I've been asking myself and the more I ask the less relevant the question becomes, thus I find no real answer, thoughts are just splitting, dividing and in denial with each other when I weight different points of view.

What if ...

That will not fix fr problem.
For start you can write in native code library, which will generate uniq token for each client beased on his hardware, forbid to launch clients in sandbox and on vmware, and check this tokens on client login.
Just ask Atom to write it, one day will be enought.

I didn't think about it before. The unique token in theory could be tied to a character and upon creating a new character the unique token witch is the same for the client could be checked, if the unique token is already in use and in database, it might disallow new character creation until the previous token, character is deleted. Meaning a player literally would have to live on one character at a time.

Multiple alts allow you to experience the game in many ways, try out something new without losing the ability to experience what you already have, and what you are. New character doesn't always mean it is a new tool witch the player will store at a specific location, for a specific use and take advantage of it on demand as we speak, but personality, character witch the player fulfills at his own intentions and capabilities.

The question is, does such a change hold any value, possibility to improve the game at all? Maybe it would be just trading one positive aspect of the game for another, in the end it would balance out and we would be sitting at the same old zero. What if more alts is the key to balance, one, more than one? Two, three at any given time for a player to use? What would be the magic number? Or you'd stick with the one character and be happy as the game would go on?
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Alec Ramsey

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Re: What if ...
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 07:44:42 pm »

alts ruin the game in my opinion.  people shouldnt be able to be everything, otherwise, why have skill points to begin with?
some pk'er/griefer wouldnt be as strong.   i dunno....i like the idea of no alts.
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Re: What if ...
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 08:17:47 pm »

Maybe have some sort of four alt limit accompanied by a private bunker for each player to streamline rolling over equipment from old characters to the new.

I think the main problem with this though are the skillsets which force alting (sneak and lockpick being next to impossible to multiclass). With an alt limit you might see players stop playing certain character types altogether and focus exclusively on PvE farming.
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avv

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Re: What if ...
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 08:54:14 pm »

If it can prevent fastrelog waves, trollspamming and mercswarming in pvp it'd be great.

But if it blocks fast relogs outside pvp, it's going to be just infuriating. The game encourages alts and dual logging in so many ways that doing some of the current tasks would be pain in the ass. I'll list some:

- Looting when farming
- Repairing
- Sciencing
- Crafting
- Hauling
- Bartering
- Getting bases
- Doing some quests

So if I had to wait the log-off cooldown for example when I want to repair my car, it'd be very bad. And don't tell me to call my friends to fix the car, it's going to take longer than the login timer anyway. 

Before this kind of "working" fixes for fast relog/dual log are made, best fix some (most) of the reasons that encourage to do dual log and fastrelog in first place.
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Re: What if ...
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 09:22:48 pm »

So if I had to wait the log-off cooldown for example when I want to repair my car, it'd be very bad. And don't tell me to call my friends to fix the car, it's going to take longer than the login timer anyway. 

I meant a situation where it is impossible to have more than one character, you wouldn't have the option to "wait to re-log", you wouldn't have the ability to have more than one character, all your abilities would be closely connected with interaction. If you didn't pick repair on your character, you would have to use someone's else service, for example.
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Re: What if ...
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2012, 09:25:26 pm »

While I think that this is actually a very valid and probably important topic to bring up, a big problem (which I've seen mentioned in other topics, if I recall correctly) is the uncertainty regarding the direction of the game. That will probably reflected in the answers you get here, too. For example:

alts ruin the game in my opinion.  people shouldnt be able to be everything, otherwise, why have skill points to begin with?
While being a valid opinion, have you considered the difference between tb and rt combat? I tend to agree with the underlying notion, nevertheless there are some builds, while being good in one mode, that are utter dogshit in the other. Meaning without alts either some people simply can't play together or take a big hit in efficiency. You could argue that is part of a role playing game, but personally I prefer my char sucking sometimes because of the choices I made, not because the gameplay mechanics are completely schizophrenic.

I think the main problem with this though are the skillsets which force alting (sneak and lockpick being next to impossible to multiclass).
Is it the skillsets that force alting or may it be the entitlement of the playerbase and the reluctance to accept that one's character may actually be mediocre at what he sets out to do? That's an honest question, personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.

What seems important to me with this is either to set a direction for the game and go with it, or - if consensus on the topic at hand can be achieved - tweak the game to whatever will emerge out of this topic. Fwiw I strongly believe that a one character per player rule would make for a great game, although it may be a very different one. One thing to keep in mind is that different players enjoy different things. I know there are players who gladly pursue and get enjoyment out of things that a lot of the louder voices on the forum perceive as annoying grind - farming, crafting, stealing etc. Which I assume wouldn't mean gear starvation for organized groups, but rather that acquisition of valuables wouldn't depend on alts and efficient usage, but more on recruiting and teamplay. At first glance I can't see anything wrong with that, although we'd very much have to keep player numbers in mind here. While I personally would like that change, I am the first to admit that it would break down in no time without the player numbers to support it, turning some of the larger conflicts from "whoever has the most alts, wins" to "whoever can lure a dedicated crafter into their faction, wins".

Another thing to keep in mind here is that while I may argue that skillsets are not necessarilly what forces people to alt, some of the gameplay mechanics definitely may do. Take companions for instance (just because it's one of the things I've witnessed a lot firsthand). You regularly run into players who have alts just for checking bars via fast relog. I've actually gotten to talk to some of them, all upstanding individuals, I don't have any problem with them personally, for the record. But I believe it brings up a problem with the way the game works (which has been brought up in several other topics, as well), when players decide to go that route, because it is by far the most efficient one to achieve a personal goal. Again, there is an argument to be made for the situation changing radically with a one character rule. Less need for several NPCs, less prevalence of power builds to begin with, thus merely average NPCs becomming more acceptable, etc. But it may also lead to a massive source of frustration (which obviously shouldn't be what the mechanics should aim for), that's something I just can't tell at the moment. Bottom line is: right now I wouldn't call the game exactly balanced and a major change like this most likely wouldn't be able to stand on its own, that is something important to keep in mind.

Most importantly, though:
Multiple alts allow you to experience the game in many ways, try out something new without losing the ability to experience what you already have, and what you are. New character doesn't always mean it is a new tool witch the player will store at a specific location, for a specific use and take advantage of it on demand as we speak, but personality, character witch the player fulfills at his own intentions and capabilities.
Personally I'm a sucker for the idea of trying to survive with whatever limited skillset you happen to have. Quite obviously I cannot speak for everyone else and as much as I'd like to get rid of alts alltogether, my personal boundry for that is exactly what you stated here and I'd hate to see this option taken away from players who enjoy a variety of gameplay systems, at the very least under the current set of gameplay mechanics.

I'm going to get a lot of shit for this, but imo one source of the problem are the skill mechanics of the original F1/F2. There's a reason Beth changed them for the modernizations. They're overspecialized and quite frankly fucking terrible. At the very least they are near impossible to translate into any form of balanced multiplayer experience (which, admittedly, is partly the fault of it being multiplayer, not the mechanics themselves). Point being: maybe that particular game design fossil needs a few serious overhauls, before we actually can achieve balanced diversity and realistically get rid of alts (if that would turn out to be the desire of the playerbase).
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Alec Ramsey

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Re: What if ...
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2012, 09:49:53 pm »

isnt it about making a decision and sticking with it, though?    like, take D&D.  if i asked my DM if i could run 2 characters, he'd try to stab me.  as far as lockpicking and sneak, isnt it only hard to multiclass only if youre trying to hardcore max out a character?  doesnt have to be perfect character. just round him out the way you want. 

of course, im not a competitive player, im here for fun and slight RP.  i dont care if it takes me months to max out my level.
maybe my opinion doesnt really count that much.  hell i dont even use alts.


sure love this game though!
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avv

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Re: What if ...
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 10:06:45 pm »

I meant a situation where it is impossible to have more than one character, you wouldn't have the option to "wait to re-log", you wouldn't have the ability to have more than one character, all your abilities would be closely connected with interaction. If you didn't pick repair on your character, you would have to use someone's else service, for example.

So what if my team is afk? I can't farm because my team is offline. Or what if my team needs me to farm but I don't want to do it at the present time? Then the whole team can't farm because they are missing a key character. Yes this is team-based game but some players like to get their materials alone at their own pace, nothing will change this. You can't change the nature of players with game changes, but you can change the game to fit the nature of mostly all players. Something for everyone.

Personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.

Tradeoffs are okay, but in our case being bad in something means you have to WAIT longer or plaing can't do it. Example: lockpick. Less lockpick, more fails, more waiting. Repair: more grinding of materials because condition transfer is smaller. Barter: more grinding of materials because merchant price is worse. Science: less materials, thus more grinding. Basically all support skills mean that with less, you get more waiting or grinding. And the grinding isn't even fun in most cases, take a look at repair for example.

Then we got some dead-end tradeoffs.
Example: carryweight. Lowest cw is 18. You can barely carry your gear and then, NOTHING. Okay you can buy buffout and psycho to boost it, but selling stuff is going to take forever with such low cw. Your life is utter hell because everything you carry needs to be handled in small parts.

Quote
Fwiw I strongly believe that a one character per player rule would make for a great game, although it may be a very different one.

It wouldn't end up that way with Skycast's idea. People would still make alts but they'd have to wait for the cd timer.
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Lordus

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Re: What if ...
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 10:27:48 pm »


 Well, nice dreaming :) I believe that it would lead into specialization of charaters, of course, and neccesitity to trade and offer stuff and skills among other factions and individuals. It could be a long-awaited non combat Player vs. Player element , that i miss a lot in this game.

 On other way, i dont believe that some clever guy would not bypass it. Or at least a lot of "second" computer alts would support primary powerbuilds.

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Re: What if ...
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2012, 10:42:54 pm »

isnt it about making a decision and sticking with it, though?    like, take D&D.  if i asked my DM if i could run 2 characters, he'd try to stab me.  as far as lockpicking and sneak, isnt it only hard to multiclass only if youre trying to hardcore max out a character?  doesnt have to be perfect character. just round him out the way you want. 

Yeah, I get the notion and I think you're not wrong. The thing is (and I am sure someone will correct me, if I am wrong) there are some hard limits on skills. It's not just that you can't do some things well with an average skill, but that you can't do some things at all. As far as I know Lockpick is an example for that. Also in D&D your GM has the liberty to create scenarios that give value to such a char. Here that is not the case, he is necessary for some tasks but of limited use virtually anywhere else. Of course, as you said, that only applies if you want to minmax and doesn't apply if you go a more moderate route. Which is fine, but may not be applicable in any competitive context. One char per player would get rid of that problem, too, however with mechanics in place as they are, emphasis might just shift to a different aspect that may be just as undesirable. It may not be a major detriment, but it is something to keep in mind.

Tradeoffs are okay, but in our case being bad in something means you have to WAIT longer or plaing can't do it. Example: lockpick. Less lockpick, more fails, more waiting. Repair: more grinding of materials because condition transfer is smaller. Barter: more grinding of materials because merchant price is worse. Science: less materials, thus more grinding. Basically all support skills mean that with less, you get more waiting or grinding.
Agreed, this would be an undesirable outcome.
Ideally this grind would not be necessary, conflict would be less gear dependant and so forth. But in reality chances are the team with more willingness to grind would come out on top. Hence my assumption that mechanics would need to be changed in order to make this viable.


It wouldn't end up that way with Skycast's idea. People would still make alts but they'd have to wait for the cd timer.
I meant a situation where it is impossible to have more than one character, you wouldn't have the option to "wait to re-log", you wouldn't have the ability to have more than one character, all your abilities would be closely connected with interaction. If you didn't pick repair on your character, you would have to use someone's else service, for example.
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vedaras

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Re: What if ...
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2012, 10:47:39 pm »

yes, first of all we should not go into pvp and ask ourselves why normal player who doenst even pvp has tons of alts? and will he do well and find the game enjoyable without alts?
the sad thing is that the game is getting worse in this situation, now you must have a lockpicker for blueprints and all, and same shit in many ways, and some time ago you could have made more universal characters and do successfully in battles with them. So this problem is first to be solved in my opinion, only then fast relogging or dual logging :)
Re: What if ...
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2012, 10:52:27 pm »

While I think that this is actually a very valid and probably important topic to bring up, a big problem (which I've seen mentioned in other topics, if I recall correctly) is the uncertainty regarding the direction of the game. That will probably reflected in the answers you get here, too. For example:

Direction of the game, hmm. Seems like a matter of opinion, what's important is to look at the greater good. Now that is something we could try to evaluate, more precisely, what type of game play would suit the common player better. That is why I asked the question, whether such a change holds possibility and value to improve the game play at all, maybe it's too extreme and needs a gold middle way, and that is why I asked whether some sort of middle way exists, "magic number."

Imagine some point, where the common player out there have enough space to variate and explore, search and experience the game while he isn't all to restricted, but players who like to have a challenge, surviving on their own their own, fulfilling their desires without being all to much at a disadvantage. Currently now a player witch likes to have that special something, that challenge. The sense of survival, you most probably know what I mean. Point is, those players are at a massive disadvantage. It's cool to make "the best build ever" and carry on as how you can at the best of your own capabilities and wits, but once it comes to interaction, competing your always below the average, no matter what you do some sort of alt will be better than you. You mentioned liking "to suck at something", but what if you suck at pretty much everything? That is how I see it, any of my alts will do anything you can and better. No trade, no choices, no consequences.

Now my idea, what if the alt amount was purely decreased and limited, but not just 1? Okay, maybe 2 alts per player. Now there is still limited choices between the both characters, they both can't do everything, the amount of alts isn't infinitive, wouldn't that improve the situation? You can still be special(compete and not be below the average) and players don't feel all too restricted, restrained.

Is there a gold middle way for this?


Is it the skillsets that force alting or may it be the entitlement of the playerbase and the reluctance to accept that one's character may actually be mediocre at what he sets out to do? That's an honest question, personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.

Mediocre, is something I see as a standard based on the total amount of ability to variate, to make choices. Once the player is limited to one character, he might feel all too restrained. The standard can be raised, like giving another tag skill, raising the total amount of skill points gained per level, as an example. Each character, player would still have the same standard just on a different scale, they all still would be mediocre based on everyone else.

But then again, we could allow an alt more or less.

... While I personally would like that change, I am the first to admit that it would break down in no time without the player numbers to support it ...

I'm thinking ahead a little bit, this is what i was afraid would going to happen, players too "boxed."

No sense of independence?

Another thing to keep in mind here is that while I may argue that skillsets are not necessarilly what forces people to alt, some of the gameplay mechanics definitely may do. Take companions for instance (just because it's one of the things I've witnessed a lot firsthand). You regularly run into players who have alts just for checking bars via fast relog. I've actually gotten to talk to some of them, all upstanding individuals, I don't have any problem with them personally, for the record. But I believe it brings up a problem with the way the game works (which has been brought up in several other topics, as well), when players decide to go that route, because it is by far the most efficient one to achieve a personal goal. Again, there is an argument to be made for the situation changing radically with a one character rule.

Yes, acknowledged. Like Repair, for example, who couldn't live without some sort of way to maintain your own equipment, at least just a little bit, with low amount of Repair it is impossible and having to interact each time for that would be too time consuming and frustrating for some, like you mentioned before "who gets in with friends of the best crafting or the most". So, attacking features is definitely a viable option, for example, purely raising the amount of Repair skill gained from tools used to Repair something, anything, but make them break down more often and maybe a little bit more common than usually.

Most importantly, though:Personally I'm a sucker for the idea of trying to survive with whatever limited skillset you happen to have. Quite obviously I cannot speak for everyone else and as much as I'd like to get rid of alts alltogether, my personal boundry for that is exactly what you stated here and I'd hate to see this option taken away from players who enjoy a variety of gameplay systems, at the very least under the current set of gameplay mechanics.

Yes, yes getting rid of alts, that is interesting. I once thought just like you, getting rid of alts all together, but when I thought this far, I snapped and started to think, what about the consequences if any. :)

one source of the problem are the skill mechanics of the original F1/F2.

Point being: maybe that particular game design fossil needs a few serious overhauls, before we actually can achieve balanced diversity and realistically get rid of alts (if that would turn out to be the desire of the playerbase).

I'm not a fan of merging skills, I really am not, but sometimes it really does feel like the right thing to do, merging just an example of the modern style. Yeah, serious overhauls, never ending question of what everyone else would think about them (too far from cannon, this is not fallout anymore etc. etc.)

Well, nice dreaming :)

Not anymore. Let's say Skycast blew my mind. He also likes rumors.

It wouldn't end up that way with Skycast's idea. People would still make alts but they'd have to wait for the cd timer.

No, there are more clever ways how to change that in a game with more than one alt. What you are saying is your own idea. :)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 11:09:57 pm by T-888 »
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avv

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Re: What if ...
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2012, 12:00:27 am »

Is there a gold middle way for this?

One char has to be able to do all of these PERFECTLY:
- Do PVE and pvp
- Carry
- Get everything needed to do pvp and pve (guns, drugs, armors, ammo)
- Get logistics (bases, cars)

For example at this moment slavery quest is best way to get caps in my opinion. Alternatives have to be created so that everyone don't have to join slavers or make an alt. The alternatives have to be precisely as profitable to discourage alting attempts.
Stealing is the best way to get superstims, an alternative is needed so that people don't have to make alts. And once again, the alternative has to be exactly as effective as stealing.

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Re: What if ...
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2012, 12:04:54 am »

Is it the skillsets that force alting or may it be the entitlement of the playerbase and the reluctance to accept that one's character may actually be mediocre at what he sets out to do? That's an honest question, personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.

The Lockpick is a sore point for me actually, since early on it forced me to decide that BP hunting and any of the in-game dungeons (Tanker Quest, The Glow, Ares) were simply not worthwhile. Imagine any other RPG that gives you a hard time when opening all treasure chests--I don't think I can name one. Even in hardcore party-based D&D, a dedicated thief has a useful spread of abilities--including sneak, steal, dodging in combat, etc. The fact that a useful thief kit can't be put together in fonline (sneak and lockpick together, imagine that) strikes me as a failure of some of the most basic RPG standards out there.
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Re: What if ...
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2012, 01:07:54 am »

One char has to be able to do all of these PERFECTLY:
- Do PVE and pvp
- Carry
- Get everything needed to do pvp and pve (guns, drugs, armors, ammo)
- Get logistics (bases, cars)

Something universal, witch applies to everything and any situation, possible outcome of choices leading to same results with less efficiency between the gaps. I'm familiar with your idea, but it can't be done like you ask, depends on how do you define "perfectly?" To some extent in witch any player can compete or be same as everyone else? That is hard task to do, this is what I and Malice was talking about. Serious overhauls needed for this, that includes to dumb down the impact of the choices player makes (maybe not necessarily in a game where it is all about specialization, but questionable), for example, you can raise the base accuracy for all weapon skills by a large margin and skill points re-directed less effective, so any character can invest less or the same and be better overall despite the same margin of gap between the characters specialization. Filter?

Small Guns 50% base chance. 1% of skill increases 1% chance to hit. Players start off with 0 weapon skill, to understand more easily.

Power build invests 50 SP and gains 100% chance to hit at certain distance with 50% weapon skill.

Best build ever invests only 25, as best build ever wants to focus on other skills more and gains 75% chance to hit with 25 weapon skill.

or

Small Guns 75% base chance, 1% of skill points invested increases 0.5% chance to hit.

Power build invests 50 skill-points and gains 100%(weapon skill 50%) chance to hit at certain distance.

Best build ever invests only 25 and gains 87,5%(weapon skill 25%) chance to hit.

Both invested the same amount of Skill points at both scenarios. The gap between both build effectiveness is twice less, so ultimately best build ever will have an easier time competing, less at disadvantage by not specializing so much.

This principle is universal and can be applied to everything, carry weight, Science, Repair, OD etc. etc.

For example at this moment slavery quest is best way to get caps in my opinion. Alternatives have to be created so that everyone don't have to join slavers or make an alt. The alternatives have to be precisely as profitable to discourage alting attempts.
Stealing is the best way to get superstims, an alternative is needed so that people don't have to make alts. And once again, the alternative has to be exactly as effective as stealing.

This is way too simple, of course it's either a new quest for an alternative or just fixed crafting table in witch you can craft those SS equally well, just experience the way of how you gain caps, gain SS differently.

The fact that a useful thief kit can't be put together in fonline (sneak and lockpick together, imagine that) strikes me as a failure of some of the most basic RPG standards out there.

Actually it's doable, but not very practical, same goes for sneaker/steal character(although I've seen that kind of and they are more harder to detect and react on, so better in general, but still very high investment for that, the character is useless otherwise).
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 01:33:14 am by T-888 »
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