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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Fat Man on September 30, 2012, 04:17:09 am
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Quick question folks, how many minus action points for knock out? I know knock down is 3 but I want to know how many is knockout so I can caluclate quick recovery.
So we know this:
Quick Recovery: Effects of Knockout/down/lost turn are reduced to 1/3rd
So with quick recovery a knock down is only -1 action point,
But what I want to know is how many minus action points with or without quick recover when it comes to knockouts. I already know quick recovery does not work vs heavy handed.
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Knockout sets your AP (it doesn't merely substract from current AP) randomly between -FullHp to -3*FulHP.
So with QR it's between -FullHp/3 to -FullHP
I already know quick recovery does not work vs heavy handed.
Quick recovery doesn't work vs heavy handed?
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Its what they been saying writing and complaing about for months now...
By the way still confused what does HP have to do with the -action points that knock out does? You get knocked out it takes time for those action points to regenerate... Did you mean to write -AP instead of HP or this formula has to do with your hit points, or health because that doesn't make sense.
You have 10 endurance, 10str that is 200hp -3*200 = -600, and with quick recovery -600/3 = -200 that doesn't make any sense when it comes to getting knocked out by a critical in regards to -action points, or when your action points go red with character lying on ground.
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Quick Recovery work vs HH, but Stonewall nope
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Quick Recovery work vs HH, but Stonewall nope
Ah.. maybe it was stonewall.
I also notice that stonewall works beautiful vs knock outs and knock downs, but if its a bypass it well still do a knock out/knock down.
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By the way still confused what does HP have to do with the -action points that knock out does?
Mayck meant MaxAP not FullHP. Although it doesn't make sense anyway, because it means the more APs
you have the bigger KO penalty. It's probably a mistake in formula. Quick Recovery makes the penalty
3 times smaller.
After update there should be ST roll maluses for heavy handers depending on unarmed weapon they wear
(-5 if no weapon, -4 brass knuckles, -3 spiked knuckles, -1 power fist, 0 MPF).
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Erm i don't get you Jovanka, what's wrong with that formula?
If you have 10 maxAP its still 5 s to get them full like if you have 6 maxAP (Still 5 s to get them full)
Then its 5-15 s ko or 1 2/3-5 s ko with Quick recovery
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Erm i don't get you Jovanka, what's wrong with that formula?
If you have 10 maxAP its still 5 s to get them full like if you have 6 maxAP (Still 5 s to get them full)
Then its 5-15 s ko or 1 2/3-5 s ko with Quick recovery
Oh right, maybe you are right.
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Oh right, maybe you are right.
Oh snap, dev was wrong, Petreks should be dev now :D
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Yeah, I meant FullAP not HP...
Erm i don't get you Jovanka, what's wrong with that formula?
If you have 10 maxAP its still 5 s to get them full like if you have 6 maxAP (Still 5 s to get them full)
Then its 5-15 s ko or 1 2/3-5 s ko with Quick recovery
I am not sure if the current formula is wrong it just penalizes you a bit more if you have more UnusedAP (not max AP)...
What I mean:
Let's assume that I have max 10AP
1) If i use up all my AP and i have 0 current AP and then get a knockout i will have my current AP set to -10 -- -30, thus having -10 -- -30 AP penalty
2) But if i didn't use up my AP and I have 10 current AP and get a knockout i will have my current AP set to -10 -- -30 too, thus getting larger -20 -- -40AP penalty
So my objections had nothing to do with the knouckout being same length for all players regardless of their maximum AP (that's completely fine)... but with the fact that it ignores player's current AP like he had none
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Mayck meant MaxAP not FullHP. Although it doesn't make sense anyway, because it means the more APs
you have the bigger KO penalty. It's probably a mistake in formula. Quick Recovery makes the penalty
3 times smaller.
After update there should be ST roll maluses for heavy handers depending on unarmed weapon they wear
(-5 if no weapon, -4 brass knuckles, -3 spiked knuckles, -1 power fist, 0 MPF).
That is fucking bullshit. MPF is way too annoying to stockpile since you have to craft the damn things you just fucked every non faction hh build (pretty much everyone). You already need 10 str and a trait for something that is only useful 1v1.
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Roacher, nobody cares that you will actually have to have some good equipment to be effective and you don't like it, suck it up boy.
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I wouldn't give a shit if MPF was farmable, either scrap bps and fix the crafting system or make pf have 0 negative str.
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Farm power fists, it will be 90% chance to knock down.
Nobody is going to scrap shit because you don't like to have good equipment to be effective, nobody cares for the second time.
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Farm power fists, it will be 90% chance to knock down.
Nobody is going to scrap shit because you don't like to have good equipment to be effective, nobody cares for the second time.
You cared enough to post twice, how's your campaign to stop fr so you can be the only one cheating?
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I am just amazed that you can whine about such small things, oh no your troll character needs equipment now. ;D
FR are apples you don't even understand in comparison to your troll campaign witch are oranges.
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Roachor remember with PF and especially MPF you do a lot more damage, so it's just a couple punches to kill someone.
It's not a big problem to buy a MPF blueprint I think.
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Yeah but you want to know why I don't use pf? because hth are throw away characters. Half the time they die before they get in range and it takes a lot of punches to kill someone. It's not worth the time invested to gear up and I don't have bases next to every town, not to mention hh is mainly used for pve. So long killing bos since you'll die when reloading/running out of ammo. Only reason unarmed is viable is because of HH, and due to whiners it no longer will be.
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Viable? You mistaken something, it's never been viable, only annoying for some.
Throw away characters without gear should be minimized as much as possible, they bring nothing to game play.
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Yeah but you want to know why I don't use pf? because hth are throw away characters. Half the time they die before they get in range and it takes a lot of punches to kill someone. It's not worth the time invested to gear up and I don't have bases next to every town, not to mention hh is mainly used for pve. So long killing bos since you'll die when reloading/running out of ammo. Only reason unarmed is viable is because of HH, and due to whiners it no longer will be.
I just tested it with a character similar to your Zombies. Killed a 500 HP BoS in PA with one MPF.
Yes, you might run out of ammo (if you get lucky you don't), but you can still manage to switch to 2nd hand and finish BoS off
(tried that too, it's doable). Remember this is one of the strongest NPCs in the game, so what exactly do you expect?
That you will just easily punch them with bare fists with no risk involved whatsoever?
You can still farm them alone with a HH character, just not a bare handed one.
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@Mayck
Are you sure about these calculations ? I remember times (I agree, it was quite a long time ago), when i received KO and because of full AP, I could get on my feet instantenously (thus, those numbers would be absolute substraction, not final value)
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I just tested it with a character similar to your Zombies. Killed a 500 HP BoS in PA with one MPF.
Yes, you might run out of ammo (if you get lucky you don't), but you can still manage to switch to 2nd hand and finish BoS off
(tried that too, it's doable). Remember this is one of the strongest NPCs in the game, so what exactly do you expect?
That you will just easily punch them with bare fists with no risk involved whatsoever?
You can still farm them alone with a HH character, just not a bare handed one.
The whole point of unarmed characters is they don't have to be armed, sure its fun for you just spawning items but honestly go get a mpf and see how long it takes. HH are already weak due to low damage (unless you have fast shot im talking 3dmg punches vs ca) and since hh builds are so special heavy you cant have luck, which means enjoy dropping your powerfist. I use spiked knuckles mainly because i can craft one on the spot from scienced guns if I get lucky dismantling and can re-equip relatively quickly. SEC is one of the most annoying ammo types in the game to get other than 7.62 and is only farmable far from populated areas, hell I have mfc just piling up and sec is scarce. Fact is HH build with MPF is still not on par with a pvp build and pvp builds are way easier to equip.
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@Mayck
Are you sure about these calculations ? I remember times (I agree, it was quite a long time ago), when i received KO and because of full AP, I could get on my feet instantenously (thus, those numbers would be absolute substraction, not final value)
Yep I am sure... The substraction was here sometime ago. What we have now is (in)convinient side-effect of cancelling the chaining of the KOs (back then AP could be substracted to very high negative values).
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Seriously, who makes these ridiculous changes ? If you ask me, KOs should be only -MaxAP.
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Fact is HH build with MPF is still not on par with a pvp build
And won't be. Because unarmed can only do damage in onehex range it automatically has less options in combat. The more range, the more options in combat. But utilizing these options is up to the player and his personal skill set. So that trying to compensate the lack of options with raw numerical bonuses like pure damage can't work because skill and buffs can't fit the same scale.
You can't balance or make it fun a fighting style which only option to win is to get close. It's the most predictable strategy ever.
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What's your point? Minigun is the same thing with 1 hex, strategy is wait for guy to drain ap and 1 hex him. As you said pure damage can't counter unless they make hth capable of 300 dmg crits, this is why ac and chain stuns exist.
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What's your point? Minigun is the same thing with 1 hex, strategy is wait for guy to drain ap and 1 hex him. As you said pure damage can't counter unless they make hth capable of 300 dmg crits, this is why ac and chain stuns exist.
The point is that you will never have the same options as ranged gunner as unarmed. And these option's cant be replaced with a mechanical buff.
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In other simple words, unarmed will never be just as effective as a ranged weapon and it shouldn't be.
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ST roll maluses for heavy handers will ruin such build. A heavy HH should be almost unbeatable at hand-to-hand range (if he can get that close), HH as it currently is gives this option. I say don't put maluses on HH.
The point is that you will never have the same options as ranged gunner as unarmed. And these option's cant be replaced with a mechanical buff.
Which is one more reason not to ruin the few options hand-to-hand chars currently have.
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ST roll maluses for heavy handers will ruin such build.
As a troll yes, which was the plan. Get gear and your build works normally.
A heavy HH should be almost unbeatable at hand-to-hand range
Not without gear.
Which is one more reason not to ruin the few options hand-to-hand chars currently have.
Auto knockdown isn't an option, it's a buff.
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Gear requirement to be somewhat effective is just as normal as to eat food and breath air, it will not ruin the build, just make it a higher risk reward aspect playing one, if you want to run around completely naked i don't understand how you can expect to be a threat or be unbeatable in fact in any way, you will be better with a mega power fist or the ordinary version of it any time. Only difference you won't be able to come back to NR 10 times in a row and harass players with it anymore without any drawback or consequence.
Useless trolls, bring nothing to game play, i rather see someone with gear and risking something instead of naked characters who risk nothing and posse threat by harassment and other retarded means like these AC trolls running around and looting in TC just for fun, those are just moron-like features. Some kids who have nothing better to do than annoy players should suck up this heavy handed change and for good.
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I would not mind having to use mega power fist to get 100 knock down chance. heavy handed is op and making heavy handers use mpf would balance it a little bit. again only people who see this as a flaw are..... trolls!
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It was same when u could kill anyone with sd greese gun
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As a troll yes, which was the plan. Get gear and your build works normally.
Not without gear.
Auto knockdown isn't an option, it's a buff.
A good martial artist doesn't need gear to knock you down in HH combat; even if you're armed with a gun, should you let him get within hand-to-hand range. Auto knockdown is the only option/buff for pvp to make such build viable, and even then you have to get in close range and you're doing small damage- not easy to do vs bursters/big gunners who can kill in 2-3 bursts. HH is also very useful for pve. I think proxy use and multi logging should be fixed first as it is more game breaking than knockdown which one can avoid by moving/not standing still and thus not allowing a HH build to get in close range.
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A good martial artist doesn't need gear to knock you down in HH combat; even if you're armed with a gun, should you let him get within hand-to-hand range.
Realism doesn't have anything to do with the game, it's not a simulation. Or else, surviving an avenger (or even an AK) burst would be impossible, not mentioning avoiding it matrix style with AC. GP>realism
Auto knockdown is the only option/buff for pvp to make such build viable, and even then you have to get in close range and you're doing small damage- not easy to do vs bursters/big gunners who can kill in 2-3 bursts.
No build should be viable without stuff. Ever. And getting a MPF will still be easier than getting a CA, a CA helmet, and an avenger/laser gatling (and the ammo). Thinking that you could loot all that stuff from people you killed while using none is absolute non sense, a retarded mechanic that encourage trolling and eventually ruin the fun and the main interest of the game (the risk of loosing valuable stuff, in exchange to the the possibility of getting it is a core mechanic of fonline, what makes all it's flavor. When at best you loose only ammo to loot nothing, and at worst loose all your stuff to an unarmed troll, there is a big problem).
which one can avoid by moving/not standing still and thus not allowing a HH build to get in close range.
Yeah, because playing benny hill because of a bluesuit retard is a fantastic game experience...
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I wanted to discuss knockouts but I see this is turning into another heavy handed debate. I like the days when you would have to punch somebody in eye or head with unarmed to be effective.
I think it depends on what heavy handed build, as big gunner the most annoying is ac + in your face + heavy handed, you can't hit them at range and if you do its only like 20 damage, then if you one hex you miss, I swear in your face doesn't work 1/2 to miss it seems I always miss when I shoot these builds one hex... That is why these builds are annoying. But hell its always wise to just go in with a sneaker see what builds are around if you want to go rambo with your big gunner and you see 3 hth trolls just dont enter the town unless there is a worthy enemy.
But I think this is what they wanted for this session was more use for HtH in PVP that is why we have heavy handed and ac.
I have a build that has heavy handed with 7 str, and actually 7 str isn't too bad you still knock down majority of the time. (this build is a big guner sneaker and I took heavy handed because it useful taking with 100% unarmed for awareness) So I do not see problem it requires a crafted item to do 100% knock down that is fair, even if a power fists counts as 8/10 that is still sufficent. Spend an hour around san francisco you well have so many power fist you won't know what to do with. I do not see this being an issue. Just make a turn base build and hunt around san francisco to level and farm at same time. Every NPC around san francisco gives 300exp + loot.
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Sorry for double post but it didn't belong in the one above...
Back to knock outs, anybody know if luck factors into getting knocked out? We know lower luck = higher chance to be bypassed but does it also increase higher chance to get knocked out?
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Back to knock outs, anybody know if luck factors into getting knocked out? We know lower luck = higher chance to be bypassed but does it also increase higher chance to get knocked out?
No. The characteristic used for KO rolls is endurance.
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No. The characteristic used for KO rolls is endurance.
I think that is true with stonewall, but without stonewall 10 endurance doesn't make a difference. Know this from experience.
I think bonehead + man of steel reduces a knock out shot to a knock down.
Reason why I started this topic was thinking if taking quick recovery is more useful than taking stonewall or man of steel. Was thinking it would be more useful perk to take at level 6 than baby toughness for a big gunner build.
At level 9 I think even tougher is more useful than stonewall, and level 6 quick recovery would be better option than toughness. Level 15 for man of steel which wouldn't be a good perk to replace a life giver or a brd on a bg burster.
But at same time knock outs still take away alot of AP, 1/3 of that ap you are still on the ground for a good length of time where it still seems like a useless perk.
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Back to knock outs, anybody know if luck factors into getting knocked out? We know lower luck = higher chance to be bypassed but does it also increase higher chance to get knocked out?
Higher luck does not lower knockout chance.
I think that is true with stonewall, but without stonewall 10 endurance doesn't make a difference. Know this from experience.
It makes a difference even without stonewall.
I think bonehead + man of steel reduces a knock out shot to a knock down.
Bonehad + man of steel usually decrease the severity of the critical so it basically decreases chance to get knocked out.
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doesn't low luck increase the chance/severity of crits against you? that would increase knock outs.
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I think that is true with stonewall, but without stonewall 10 endurance doesn't make a difference. Know this from experience.
Look, if you don't know what you're talking about and don't believe us when we answer your questions, why do you even ask?
Luck of the person receiving crit affect only bypass and blind chance. EN affect KD and KO rolls (and cripple too in Fallout, but maybe they changed that to strength in 2238).
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Crazy is correct.
Just noticed, 10 endurance and stonewall otherwise no difference? What bullshit.
Stonewall 6 ST 6 En Roll to ignore knockout, En-5 roll to ignore knockdown
Last, previous information about Stonewall, it adds another roll, so if your endurance roll fails it gives another chance to avoid it, higher endurance is of course much more effective in conjunction with Stonewall in a sense that your second roll has a higher chance to avoid the effect, but for example a character with 8 endurance will still benefit from it quite a bit and actually maybe even equal with 10 endurance, because Stonewall is only used when you actually fail with your normal endurance roll ( with 10 endurance you will fail the least to use stonewall at all ), so by all means if you fail more times with 8 endurance your second roll will be used more often despite it being less effective, it should be about even when it comes to KO/KD, if not equal then the difference is not very big.
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Ok so I went and tested this and this is my conclusion, luck factors into knock outs because of bypasses, even with 10 endurance stonewall or 10 endurance without it, having lower luck = increase chance of bypass and a sniper with better critical well do a knock out with a bypass so luck does factor into knockouts but that is in regard to bypasses.
Which is the reason why I thought that 10 endurance didn't do much vs knock outs because luck factors into the bypass, my build has low luck so it gets bypassed knocked out on frequently even with 10 endurance.
I tested a build lower luck 10 endurance and a build with higher luck 10 endurance, the average critical didn't cause a knockout or a knockdown on both was the same, but the build with more luck didn't get bypassed knocked out, and the build with less luck got bypassed knocked more frequently. This was tested with a sniper with full critical chance vs combat helmet and bonehead on both of these builds.
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It's amusing to watch T-888 support suicide bomb TC trolling in one thread and being against AC trolling here. Keep it up man. :)
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It's amusing to watch T-888 support suicide bomb TC trolling in one thread and being against AC trolling here. Keep it up man. :)
Well, the difference is that i don't see C4 as a way of trolling, but running around naked and annoying players without any cost or consequence i do. Come to think of it ... basic common sense. It's said numerous times that C4 is not cheap and doesn't grow in trees ( limited by detonators ) and by itself it won't do a thing unless you have a whole team to work with the effect the explosive achieves, so comparing that to a loner who runs around and really does troll, quite a big gap don't you think so?
Have nothing good to say or don't know what are you talking about, it is better not to talk about it all.
Ok so I went and tested this and this is my conclusion, luck factors into knock outs because of bypasses
Gr1m, you are no. No, really it is no. Ney.
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It's said numerous times that C4 is not cheap and doesn't grow in trees ( limited by detonators ) and by itself it won't do a thing unless you have a whole team to work with the effect the explosive achieves, so comparing that to a loner who runs around and really does troll, quite a big gap don't you think so?
C4 is the same bullshit as mutants or militia used to be. You can say what you want, you can put as many arguments as you want but you won't change the fact, that lots of people wait every day for pvp and when they get it they are not given a chance to shoot at least once from their weapon. AC trolls cannot kill 5 players in one second. The argumentation about the price of C4 is totally irrelevant, since nobody cares about how much it cost, for everyone it's pretty much like "Hmm, so this is what I've been waiting for the whole day?"
I don't want to blame you or anyone from TNB, it's the broken game mechanics that caused this, but don't be surprised of other people's reaction. I'm not a saint, everyone knows I'm a member of team that uses AC chars, mercs, slaves and other "dirty" pvp solutions that are supposed to flawlessly defeat our enemy. To be honest I'm not a big fan of any of these, yet for me C4 bombing is the worst from the beginning because if you have low PE you cannot avoid it (no, motion sensor is not gonna help since I managed to buy only one during the whole season and I'm not really a pve guy willing to do The Glow every day).
PS: limited by detonators? I don't have a C4 crafter I don't use bombs but somehow I have like 80 detonators stashed in my base. That's a lot of blown up players if I wasn't lazy to buy a C4 blueprint and craft that shit.
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change max dmg formula from c4 to 1/2 current dmg,
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Why must every discussion turn into a c4 discussion I wanted to discuss knock outs...
Gr1m, you are no. No, really it is no. Ney.
I tested this at hinkly during off hours when nobody plays 20-30 people online. That is why they call it stonelol becuase if you get shot by sniper with better criticals that bypass well cause a knock out. What better criticals does, causes criticals to do a deadlier affect nothing has changed with this from fallout1/2. It does a alot more than just +10 on crit roll.
But as I said there is virtually no difference between luck numbers with 10 endurance until that bypass rolls. Less luck more frequent bypasses = more bypass + knock out shots, other than that there is virtually no difference in the number of times a character gets knocked out when comparing characters with 10 endurance but with differnt luck numbers.
And this is where stonelol comes in. With stonewall if you get bypassed, this perk gives you an endurance roll to lower the chance of a knock out when this happends as well. Even so with stonelol, in this game a roll is a roll, its throwing the dice, and when throwing the dice you are not always guarenteed to win, and there for there is still a slim chance with 10 endurance + stonewall + a decent amount of luck to get knocked out on a bypass shot but the chances are slim it does not eliminate the possibilities to 0 knockouts.
Then there is this new feature critical defense, bonehead -10 on a chance to cause a critical on head and eyes, man of steel another -10 on head and eyes. Then there is the helmets which is another -20 with combat helmets. That is -30 chance to cause a critical on head and eyes. A sniper with 10 luck and finesse = 95% chance on eyes, this becomes 65% chance to cause a critical. Agian dice roll there is a 65% probability that a finesse sniper will cause a critical to an eye. Endurance reduces this probablity to be a knock down or knockout, then luck factors into your characters chance of being bypassed by a better critical shot that does a kncokout. Stonewall puts these odds in your characters favor to reduce a knock out even further. This game's math is all about probablility.
You see making tank builds is a tricky thing, to add into more luck you have to sacrifice something you sacrfice strength but have to replace a perk for weapon handling, or you sacrifice your agility and have 1-2 less action points etc.
And I am NOT saying you take 1 endurance and 10 luck and that is going to be more effective vs knock outs, than taking 10 endurance. But if you take 10 endurane with 1 luck it is next to useless because of the frequent bypass+knock outs than opposed to taking 10 endurance and lets just say 5 luck, still get knocked out from bypass shot but won't happen as frequently. And playing as big gunner it is crucial to have these sorts of things to be less frequent than more frequent.
Test it see for your self make a build with 10 endurace 1 luck and a character with 10 endurance 10 luck see which one gets knocked out more and prove me wrong. Because I tested it did you?
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Test it see for your self make a build with 10 endurace 1 luck and a character with 10 endurance 10 luck see which one gets knocked out more and prove me wrong. Because I tested it did you?
I did.
out of 50 critical hits (both chars had 10EN):
10 luck char recieved 16 knockouts
01 luck char recieved 14 knockouts
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...
I've said already everything what needed to be said, we have been talking about this enough.
Make a proper suggestion, put some poll on it and look at the results, if developers see fit and the community largely will want this change, then so be it, it's not like someone's game will be ruined if C4 gets in the face, maybe like for one guy from our faction and maybe another one from BBS.
(no, motion sensor is not gonna help since I managed to buy only one during the whole season and I'm not really a pve guy willing to do The Glow every day)
It would help if you just knew how to use it and buying it is not the only option how to obtain it, but if you wanted to buy them i am pretty sure players would sell them in sufficient amount for you since they don't have any other real purpose than to detect sneakers and in this case those would be the ones with the C4.
You don't want to put any effort in that, it is a game, but nothing is going to happen by itself. :)
I did.
out of 50 critical hits (both chars had 10EN):
10 luck char recieved 16 knockouts
01 luck char recieved 14 knockouts
It's the same, the more and it will reach to be equal.
Gr1m, stop posting, you provide so much unnecessary information that leads to nothing or something false and incorrect. You don't seem to understand some basics, luck and endurance are apples and oranges, so as bypasses and knockouts, there is no connection, they have different stat checks and can have different "size" rolls therefore different chance to occur.
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Gr1m, stop posting, you provide so much unnecessary information that leads to nothing or something false and incorrect. You don't seem to understand some basics, luck and endurance are apples and oranges, so as bypasses and knockouts, there is no connection, they have different stat checks and can have different "size" rolls therefore different chance to occur.
Ok I'll stop posting when you stop being an ass both won't happen any time soon ;)
But you know this game is random, when I did test it was other way around and maybe it was just randomness of the game. Also I didn't test as long as recording 50 shots was more like 10-15. But you know I can be proven wrong and say well I was wrong ok time to move on now we all know for sure. Bypass or no bypass from luck doesn't factor in.
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If the roll from 101-120 is decreased by helmet, bonehead, that particular gap might have the rolls for bypasses dependant on luck, it is possible that luck doesn't factor the chance for bypasses on certain builds, but in general it is not true and doesn't apply to all body parts and situations.