fodev.net
Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: farnak on February 14, 2012, 03:39:23 pm
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What about shotguns, are you going to boost their damage? They do lesser damage then submachineguns even in close combat even against low-armored target. I know that all rounds in burst hit target at range >1, but it's not enough to make shotgun usefull.
As for me, shotgun should do much more damage, but have small +DR mod and long reload time.
Shotgun is the King in close combat versus low-armored victim, isn't he?
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make shotguns work with silent death,. :)
and/or give new ammo with better dmg or something,. its been kind of useless the 2 seasons i have playd here. atleast in pvp,.
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Shotguns could have use for some good ammo.
But even then what? Is pancor going to be better than lsw, avenger or gatling laser? If it's worse, nobody's going to use it.
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It could be slightly better then SMG, but SMGs will still have longer range.
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It could be slightly better then SMG, but SMGs will still have longer range.
But avenger is better than smg.
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High tier shotguns should do serious damage, I wouldnt mind if they equalled avengers. after all their range is their drawback. And they lack spread.
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I think best idea is just make shotgun shells 2/1 dmg or 3/1 even
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But avenger is better than smg.
However SMGs are rather usefull, in contrast to shotguns.
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Table with all 3 brd vs CA:
Avenger AP 2.766514458
Gatling Minigun 2.650316456
Minigun AP 2.489863013
HPFA 2.384224684
PID_PANCOR_JACKHAMMER 2.270225647
PID_M60 2.262486814
PID_HK_CAWS 2.179416621
p90c AP 2.161296584
PID_FN_FAL 2.012120253
PID_LIGHT_SUPPORT_WEAPON 1.947982595
xl70 Ap 1.825146762
10mm SMGAP 1.673485533
PID_HK_P90C 1.671195652
PID_AVENGER_MINIGUN 1.659908675
AR AP 1.652173913
PID_SAWED_OFF_SHOTGUN 1.651073198
PID_MINIGUN 1.485181446
PID_GREASE_GUN 1.362011558
PID_COMBAT_SHOTGUN 1.287837094
PID_10MM_SMG 1.272151899
PID_SHOTGUN 1.238304898
xl70 1.120253165
PID_TOMMY_GUN 1.081597413
PID_ASSAULT_RIFLE 1
Not really sure why Shotguns would need a boost.
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this looks good, ill blow the dust of my pancors now and try it out,.
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Avenger AP 2.227261168
HPFA 2.225675676
PID_PANCOR_JACKHAMMER 2.173036112
PID_HK_CAWS 2.121472543
PID_M60 2.097972973
PID_AVENGER_MINIGUN 2.004535051
Minigun AP 2.004535051
PID_FN_FAL 1.897297297
p90c AP 1.84748471
PID_LIGHT_SUPPORT_WEAPON 1.810810811
PID_MINIGUN 1.804081546
PID_HK_P90C 1.787361664
PID_SAWED_OFF_SHOTGUN 1.591104407
xl70 Ap 1.469386323
10mm SMGAP 1.430501931
PID_10MM_SMG 1.378378378
PID_GREASE_GUN 1.358294895
AR AP 1.33012961
xl70 1.322447691
PID_COMBAT_SHOTGUN 1.23752565
PID_ASSAULT_RIFLE 1.197116649
PID_SHOTGUN 1.193328306
PID_TOMMY_GUN 1.108082677
Gatling Minigun 1
vs Metal mk II
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Not really sure why Shotguns would need a boost.
TBH I don't know what that table means lol but as you can see, avenger is better. So if it's better people will use it. Spike damage and range are much more important than rate of fire and ammo saving.
Can't try to balance everything inside range and damage. Options are too limited and many items will be left unused due to too narrow effective range-damage settings. Guns need more variety, similar to what was done with m60. Small gun burst weapons are pretty much missing a slot in current pvp.
They could have a slot for sneaks now that bg sneaking was nerfed but rifles have sneak penalty and 3x brd requires high skill, while sneak too requires maxed investment.
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Do not know what your numbers mean, but:
Maximum possible normal hit vs Combat armor with 3 BRD:
Caws: 61-97 (OMG burst with 3 BRD)
Combat Shotgun: 34-59
Minigun (AP): range=1: 313-370; range>1: 104-123
Minigun (JHP): range=1: 232-277; range>1: 77-92
Avenger (AP): range=1: 351-408; range>1: 117-136
Avenger (JHP): range=1: 262-307; range>1: 87-102
P90 (AP): range=1: 164-217; range>1: 54-72
P90 (JHP): range=1: 138-186; range>1: 46-62
AR (AP): range=1: 148-216; range>1: 49-72
AR (JHP): range=1: 111-165; range>1: 37-55
Tommy Gun (the weakest MG!!!): range=1: 45-198; range>1: 15-66
I used this formula for calculating with some actual changes. (DT/3 instead of DT/5)
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=8853.0
If you do not trust in my calculations, just test it in-game yourself.
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Those are averaged over 10AP - ie an initial attack phase, then adjusted to display in terms of ratio to the lowest damage.
The above table is correct.
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Those are averaged over 10AP - ie an initial attack phase, then adjusted to display in terms of ratio to the lowest damage.
The above table is correct.
Do you even play the game? I mean we can look at these numbers all day and contemplate how they may be functional. But me and a group of friends literally just crafted 5 Pancor Jackhammers and bursted each other for 15 minutes. The only redeeming quality to the shotgun is that it does the same damage at 15 hex as at 1 hex. Which is to say it does less than 60 damage to a player with combat armor. This is with BRD1, BRD2, and MRD, each with small guns 200+. The combat armor wasn't even 100%.
The only time the Pancor did damage was when we took off all our armor and shot each other as blue suits. So I mean if your goal was to make shotguns the ultimate griefing weapons, well then pat yourselves on the back, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. But if you were attempting to make shotguns a viable PvP or even PvE weapon, well you failed miserably.
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Urgh, why do people have to post like complete douche bags? So very tiresome.
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Sorry if this seems offensive Solar, but it seems you have a bad habit of giving out false information. Happened more than once.
I suggest you doublecheck things before officially confirming them on the forum.
Also I have been suggesting for maybe 2 years at least that this game should have the Fallout Tactics shotgun ammo types, this idea has been discussed in multiple threads in a signficantly positive manner among players and just gets ignored every time. What exactly is the problem with a couple of different shotgun shells? Slugs and Flechette, like AP ammo, but you can also keep the classic shells too I guess.
I don't know why an idea which makes so much sense just hasn't gone past the "idea" stage in the past two years.
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I don't know why an idea which makes so much sense just hasn't gone past the "idea" stage in the past two years.
I'm going to stop you right there. Expecting new content, is expecting too much.
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Using 2 BRD (+4) and BRoF and ignoring the critical hits - against CA which does not suffer deterioration:
Jackhammer
lar: ok, Jackhammer
23:10:10 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:10:15 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:10:19 • JovankaB was hit for 73 hit points.
23:10:24 • JovankaB was hit for 82 hit points.
23:10:29 • JovankaB was critically hit for 168 hit points.
23:10:34 • JovankaB was critically hit for 191 hit points.
23:10:38 • JovankaB was critically hit for 201 hit points.
23:10:43 • JovankaB was critically hit for 207 hit points.
23:10:47 • JovankaB was hit for 66 hit points.
23:10:53 • JovankaB was critically hit for 204 hit points.
23:10:57 • JovankaB was critically hit for 209 hit points.
23:11:02 • JovankaB was hit for 77 hit points.
23:11:07 • JovankaB was hit for 73 hit points.
23:11:11 • JovankaB was critically hit for 267 hit points.
23:11:16 • JovankaB was critically hit for 160 hit points.
23:11:20 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:11:25 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:11:30 • JovankaB was hit for 84 hit points.
23:11:39 • Solar: weird sting of criticals :/
Average of 76.7, 5 AP shot is 15.34 per AP
Avenger
Solar: now avenger
23:11:54 • JovankaB was hit for 96 hit points.
23:11:59 • JovankaB was hit for 98 hit points.
23:12:05 • JovankaB was hit for 109 hit points.
23:12:10 • JovankaB was hit for 107 hit points.
23:12:16 • JovankaB was critically hit for 197 hit points.
23:12:21 • JovankaB was critically hit for 295 hit points.
23:12:27 • JovankaB was hit for 112 hit points.
23:12:29 • JovankaB: ap ammo?
23:12:32 • JovankaB was hit for 108 hit points.
23:12:38 • JovankaB was hit for 112 hit points.
23:12:40 • Solar: yeah
23:12:43 • JovankaB was hit for 109 hit points.
23:12:52 • JovankaB was hit for 93 hit points.
23:12:58 • JovankaB was hit for 103 hit points.
23:13:03 • JovankaB was hit for 112 hit points.
Average of 105.36, 17.56 per AP
17.56 / 15.34 = 1.14%
From the other thread where I had the expected +4 table:
Avenger AP 2.795314642
PID_PANCOR_JACKHAMMER 2.404258973
2.795 / 2.404 = 1.16%
I'd call that reasonable correlation between expected results and actual game results.
I say again, that table is correct.
Sorry if this seems offensive Solar, but it seems you have a bad habit of giving out false information. Happened more than once.
I think what you mean to say is I frequently have to prove what I am saying is correct when players get it wrong (as in this instance, or when all the TC players thought LSW > Avenger), or I find something is not right and fix it (in the instance of the xl70).
However I accept your apology. Brooce, I accept yours too. Pancor does the expected damage on the game. That damage is near the very top of the DPS table.
I'm going to stop you right there. Expecting new content, is expecting too much.
Yeah, nothing new at all. Damn us! Oh wait, unless you count the new stuff.
Advice to the 3 of you. If you're going to post in an offensive tone, make sure you're right.
You guys should try playing the game. Yawn. There's an hour less done on the game this evening :/
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Yeah, nothing new at all. Damn us! Oh wait, unless you count the new stuff.
Like Militia? Thank you, based devs. The new town control system that encourages AFKing alts in towns? I apologize, for I probably could not live without it.
I actually do apologize, because I am coming off as a huge dick. It just sucks trying to enjoy a game that has so many balance issues and actual problems. And this lag that has been lurking under the guise of a debug script? I sincerely hope that whatever you're debugging, would have been a MUCH larger problem than an entire week ridden with unplayable lag spikes. I can't count, using both hands (unless I get fancy or innovative or something) how many stories I've heard over the past week of people dying due to a sudden lag spike. Example: being dragged into an encounter, and then killed while being unable to defend themselves.
And because I did bring up militia before, holy christ, do you have any idea how annoying they are? Town Control doesn't even feel like it is about PvP anymore. The only way to beat the militia is apparently to get into a room and let them come to you as you burst them when they come in the door. Or there is that whole thing that SoT did in the Den, something about camping in the Brotherhood bunker and making the brotherhood kill everything for them. That was reaaaal classy.
I love the game's formula. I love open world pvp. You guys have done an okay job getting this far. But, I can't help but be displeased when I hear friends quitting because of the constant bug-related deaths and other shenanigannery.
</end rant>
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I actually do apologize, because I am coming off as a huge dick.
Quite, I think its best to leave that there.
As to the other things, we can see the problems just as you can. However, we go as fast as we can. All the raging in the world won't give us any more free time, so we progress at the only rate we can progress at.
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Right now is situation about shotguns dead .... Variety of ammo is nice idea something like in Fallout Tactisc should be nice I always loved electric ammo. But who will use shotgun now ? Answer is noone because if you want to shoot from Hi Tech shotgun like a Pancor you must find Blueprint (I dont count how many chests you must open how much time you kill with finding chests ....) and also you must have crafter or buy it if you are so lucky ... on other side if you want BG burster with avenger or minigun you can get this gun simplier than treasure hunting from chests because there are many encounters with these guns but there are no encounters for pancor for example. Another problem of shotgun is range diffrence betwen Pancor (16hex) and CAWS (14hex) ... imposible to reach. Ohter think hex bonus ... every bursting weapon has 3x damage from hex to target ... shotgun has nothing everybody knows that shotgun has highest power from closer distance even instakills everything. Maybe adding knock-down feature for Hi-Tech shotguns but now you have no chance you can only kill brahmins with shotgun ....
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Honestly I enjoy using the H&K, its burst damage is very near what the pancors is due to 1 extra bullet and it's range is very close to the same. Also for that blueprint there's a simple quest, and shotgun ammo is always plentiful.
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Using 2 BRD (+4) and BRoF and ignoring the critical hits - against CA which does not suffer deterioration:
The difference between them lies in the fact that shotgun has 12-16 hex range, but avenger has 35 hex range.
Also at range=1 Avenger annihilates almost anybody with ONE burst, but shotgun still has it's funny damage.
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The pancor is also craftable and can flay a guy in ca using ammo you can craft on a work bench / or you will be able to farm on easier encounters.
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Better, rare hq ammo would suit shotguns. High tier hq ammo would suit all guns, even .44 pistol, .45 guns and mauser. So even if those weapons could be considered troll gear, they could be loaded with devilish ammo and used in real action.
I'd call that reasonable correlation between expected results and actual game results.
But avenger has more range and does better spike damage. Spike and range is everything, damage per ap is nothing or else rocket launcher sucks because of statistics. I don't think anyone ingame thinks damage as per ap but per attack animation and how much you can do when unloading your max ap. Avenger can dish out 200 dmg with doubleburst from longer range than pancor, that's why it's better.
In addition players have more resistances than plain ca. They might have psycho and toughness. The more additional resists they have, the less damage pancor does because it has no armor piercing qualities, unlike ap ammo in avenger. Or lsw's 223 ammo.
But if anything, thanks for discussing this with us.
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Maybe make all shotgun BPs guaranteed items obtainable with quests (if they aren't yet).
All 3 quests would have gradually increased PvE difficulty.
And 4th PvE quest giving special perk for shotgun users (available for people who can craft all shotguns).
No idea what it could be though.
Then it could be weapon for people who like crafting & quests :P
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Well, I'm glad you made me go off and check what the effect would be, because now I'm sure the Perk to make DT not decrease would work :)
If you factor in Psycho, Beer and the Toughnesses then the Avenger AP does an extra 91% damage compared to a Jackhammer. If you then factor in a perk which would make DT not /3 from AP then the Jackhammer would do an extra 36%
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Well, I'm glad you made me go off and check what the effect would be, because now I'm sure the Perk to make DT not decrease would work :)
If you factor in Psycho, Beer and the Toughnesses then the Avenger AP does an extra 91% damage compared to a Jackhammer. If you then factor in a perk which would make DT not /3 from AP then the Jackhammer would do an extra 36%
OH so when you factor in normal resistance, the weapon which has no pierce and ammo with no AP mod, DOES LESS DAMAGE. My god, its almost as if this is what everyone has been saying the entire time. This is the sole reason why shotguns are broken, and why everyone has been begging for change. I wont wait for an apology tho....
I'm sorry if I sound smug, but the conversation is circular; which is tiring. I'm sure you can understand that. Simply put there needs to be more ammo types for the shotgun. It is the only gun (barring lasers/plasma) that has only one ammo type. I can't think of any reason to defend this mechanic.
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Well, I'm glad you made me go off and check what the effect would be, because now I'm sure the Perk to make DT not decrease would work :)
If you factor in Psycho, Beer and the Toughnesses then the Avenger AP does an extra 91% damage compared to a Jackhammer. If you then factor in a perk which would make DT not /3 from AP then the Jackhammer would do an extra 36%
So basically, the Pancor is not a viable PvP weapon, and is essentially an expensive and rare grinding tool, which is silly.
Really, if shotguns had some kind of armor piercing ammo, this would be solved. Slugs and Flechettes would be ideal.
Do you guys not know how to add ammo types? Now that I think of it, I've never actually seen that done in 2238.
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So basically, the Pancor is not a viable PvP weapon, and is essentially an expensive and rare grinding tool, which is silly.
Really, if shotguns had some kind of armor piercing ammo, this would be solved. Slugs and Flechettes would be ideal.
Do you guys not know how to add ammo types? Now that I think of it, I've never actually seen that done in 2238.
We have however seen plenty removed.
It is much easier to simply remove content from the game, than balance it.
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I was thinking about Support Perk not standard perk.
If it was connected to crafting somehow (like professions or non-combat skills requirement) then shotguns
could be "crafter weapon", maybe even something that would give them much more chance against
pure PvP builds or in encounters.
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I was thinking about Support Perk not standard perk.
If it was connected to crafting somehow (like BP or professions requirement) then shotguns could be "crafter weapon",
maybe even something that would give them much more chance against pure PvP builds or in encounters.
So the only way to make the shotgun viable, is to make it yourself? I mean a support perk is ehhhhh better than nothing, but its a round about way to try and solve a simple problem.
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I was thinking about Support Perk not standard perk.
If it was connected to crafting somehow (like BP or professions requirement) then shotguns could be "crafter weapon",
maybe even something that would give them much more chance against pure PvP builds or in encounters.
Shotguns are some of the most versatile weapons in the entire world. This is not reflected here, and they really aren't "crafter" weapons.
And you should know better than to expect a crafter to have a chance against a pure PvP build.
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OH so when you factor in normal resistance, the weapon which has no pierce and ammo with no AP mod, DOES LESS DAMAGE. My god, its almost as if this is what everyone has been saying the entire time. This is the sole reason why shotguns are broken, and why everyone has been begging for change. I wont wait for an apology tho....
This would be true if every target was using Psycho (they aren't) and Beer (they aren't) and had both ranks of toughness (a lot do, all don't).
Even with both toughness perks the Avenger is exceeding it by 42%, Minigun by 25%, p90c by 14% and the 10mm and AR are about 15% down. This does not make it useless.
It is still the top of the non AP ammo, which means with a perk that stops DT being reduced it would be *the* best weapon against them
Lets have a look at what you actually said
Which is to say it does less than 60 damage to a player with combat armor. This is with BRD1, BRD2, and MRD, each with small guns 200+. The combat armor wasn't even 100%.
and then look at what actually happened with only 2 BRD
23:10:10 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:10:15 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:10:19 • JovankaB was hit for 73 hit points.
23:10:24 • JovankaB was hit for 82 hit points.
23:10:29 • JovankaB was critically hit for 168 hit points.
23:10:34 • JovankaB was critically hit for 191 hit points.
23:10:38 • JovankaB was critically hit for 201 hit points.
23:10:43 • JovankaB was critically hit for 207 hit points.
23:10:47 • JovankaB was hit for 66 hit points.
23:10:53 • JovankaB was critically hit for 204 hit points.
23:10:57 • JovankaB was critically hit for 209 hit points.
23:11:02 • JovankaB was hit for 77 hit points.
23:11:07 • JovankaB was hit for 73 hit points.
23:11:11 • JovankaB was critically hit for 267 hit points.
23:11:16 • JovankaB was critically hit for 160 hit points.
23:11:20 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:11:25 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:11:30 • JovankaB was hit for 84 hit points.
You were just wrong. End of story.
Do you guys not know how to add ammo types? Now that I think of it, I've never actually seen that done in 2238.
Apart from this being just obviously ridiculous, the .22 is new.
They won't be getting AP ammo, we have AP ammo, we don't need to overlap niches, we need to create new ones.
I really don't get it, I'm taking the time to bother replying to you and people come back with moronic trolling posts. Here's a nice little warning, just to help you out. Post in a constructive manner and post something valuable and that's good, continue trolling me and I will ban you, my patience is wearing very thin.
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You're right, I hadn't taken into account that both characters had toughness. Which is one of the most comon perks used in the game. This explains the lower damage on our bursts.
I know you are trying your hardest to make the game nearly unplayable and making drugs and high tier items nearly unobtainable (requiring non-existant mats LOL) but give the player base a little more credit than that.
We have survived your lag spikes, your attacks by "friendly" or "neutral" NPCs. We survive the radiation that really only seems to serve the purpose of trolling players who have the misfortune of lagging into a centuar/alien encounter.
Simply put, the players that are still playing are survivors. Us that post on the forums are more so. We deserve respect in that manner. If there is a way to optimize a build, be it with drugs or what have you. We have discovered it, and in spite of your constant efforts, have found a way to make it work.
So when you say we don't use beer/jet/psycho/buffout well then you are wrong. If you are not balancing this game for those who know how to play it, then you are wrong.
If the shotgun is only intended to be used as a PvE type weapon then just say it. I personally think the Pancor Jackhammer is an awesome weapon, and would love to see it put to better use. If that is not what you want from the weapon then so be it. You are, as the saying goes, the boss, hoss.
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Apart from this being just obviously ridiculous, the .22 is new.
They won't be getting AP ammo, we have AP ammo, we don't need to overlap niches, we need to create new ones.
I wasn't suggesting AP ammo, actually, but there definitely needs to be a way to make shotguns viable in PvP. Even in real life, Slugs aren't armor piercing - they're just so large and heavy that the force crushes through armor. Flechettes do pierce armor, merely because it's practically a large metal spike.
Even if you don't like the idea of new ammo types(which I don't believe I'll ever understand), there are a number of other solutions.
Perhaps make shotgun ammo damage armor more than other ammo types. Add knockdown to shotgun shots, and factor the knockdown chance into each shot in a burst, increasing the chance of a knockdown.
Even just add ammo types that don't do damage. Flash shells which increase AP consumption of enemies hit with it, beanbags that don't damage people or enemies below 0 HP.
There are a lot of ways to make shotguns more useful. It's disappointing that there's so much real-world material to work from which could add deeper elements of strategy into the game that's completely disregarded, and I think that's why this is a hot-button issue for some people. It really just seems like you're irrationally ignoring good ideas.
Also, I can confirm that psycho and beer are really common in PvP. All drugs are.
I really don't get it, I'm taking the time to bother replying to you and people come back with moronic trolling posts. Here's a nice little warning, just to help you out. Post in a constructive manner and post something valuable and that's good, continue trolling me and I will ban you, my patience is wearing very thin.
Not cool.
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They won't be getting AP ammo, we have AP ammo, we don't need to overlap niches, we need to create new ones.
http://youtu.be/YxEPUnZHr5M
This.
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And you should know better than to expect a crafter to have a chance against a pure PvP build.
I don't know, one extra combat perk could be a lot.
And I'm not talking about some lame "skilled 10 int bruiser all professions in one" gang alts,
I'm talking about hybrid builds which can craft some things and fight.
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I really don't get it, I'm taking the time to bother replying to you and people come back with moronic trolling posts. Here's a nice little warning, just to help you out. Post in a constructive manner and post something valuable and that's good, continue trolling me and I will ban you, my patience is wearing very thin.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see *where* he is trolling. Unless voicing your opinion counts as trolling.
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I'm sorry, but I fail to see *where* he is trolling. Unless voicing your opinion counts as trolling.
Some smartass comments that this discussion didn't really need:
> Do you guys not know how to add ammo types? Now that I think of it, I've never actually seen that done in 2238.
> It is much easier to simply remove content from the game, than balance it.
> I know you are trying your hardest to make the game nearly unplayable
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I don't know, one extra combat perk could be a lot.
And I'm not talking about some lame "skilled 10 int bruiser all professions in one" gang alts,
I'm talking about hybrid builds which can craft some things and fight.
Its not significant, but it does force the player to get 150 repair, instead of say Doctor and First Aid which could be used in combat. It is a solution, but it may not be the best. I would love beanbag ammo for the shotgun. Oh lawdy talk about a weapon for slavers.
Again, its not like we are asking you to buff the Pipe Rifle. We are asking for the Pancor Jackhammer to work as well as its tier.
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every target was using Psycho (they aren't) and Beer (they aren't) and had both ranks of toughness (a lot do, all don't).
Every player isn't.
I think the perk stopping the DT decrease gives them a ready made role - helps several guns out really.
The one to stun people is a decent one too, helps slavers.
Funny we have beer never used by PvP players in one thread, now its always used ;)
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Maybe at closer range the shotguns can cause knockdown. Lets say at 5 hex or under, and it works kind of like Heavy handed, but the player must burst. This gives the player a motive to get closer, which doesn't exist now because the damage from 1-15 hex is the same.
I'm not against the quest perk. Its definitely a step in the right direction.
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What kind of characteristics can ammo have?
Can it increase crit chance?
Can it increase range?
Can it increase cripple rate in crits?
Can it make attacks cost less or more ap?
Can it change the attack type of weapon?
Can it bypass or reduce armor from certain range?
It would help to have lots of characteristics in ammo, would allow variety.
For example slugs could fly further, have small ap qualities and minor damage buff (12/10). They are like fmj ammo for shotgun.
Pellets could do more damage the closer you are. Could even have it so that every 3 hex the damage reduces. This would be significant because you still don't have to onehex to do max damage. This would replicate how shotguns really work. It would also have spread after 9 hex.
Then there could be some 2nd tier hq turboload ammo that'd just do badass damage. But would only like spawn in tc chest randomly.
The one to stun people is a decent one too, helps slavers.
Uh no thanks. Heavy handed has shown us where stunning and knockdowning attacks take us - to the trollzone! It should be a rule of thumb to never take control off from players. They should never be dismobilized by another player or anything else for longer than brief moments. It works against npcs and is fun because npcs swarm you and you need to dismobilize them. But npcs don't have feelings so they can be threated as you want.
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Uh no thanks. Heavy handed has shown us where stunning and knockdowning attacks take us - to the trollzone! It should be a rule of thumb to never take control off from players. They should never be dismobilized by another player or anything else for longer than brief moments. It works against npcs and is fun because npcs swarm you and you need to dismobilize them. But npcs don't have feelings so they can be threated as you want.
I mean the one that stopped at 0 HP.
Ammo effects are pretty limited, without everything being reworked.
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Well, if there were just a flechette ammo with -20%DR or -10%DR mod and AP perk, combined with an auto knockdown on burst (or roll against EN-5, or maybe only on stonewall target), I think it would become a very good weapon for building assault. It would pack a lot of punch and the bonus KD would be useful without being OP, but on another hand it still have shitty range.
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In case anyone is interested in how some actual shotguns rounds work. Flachette, Buck and Ball rounds, Bolo rounds, Rhodesian jungle rounds, Arrow round (home-made), Dragons breath rounds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=RP4FjODPDFA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=RP4FjODPDFA)
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I have a suggestion. If a support perk is the way we are choosing to go. I think there should be the DT perk Jovanka is talking about, but how about this:
Shotgun Surgeon
Requirements: Small Guns 150, Doctor 100
Bonus: Aimed shots with a shotgun are significantly more likely to cripple limbs.
This gives the shotgun a different role than an smg, which is what I feel we are trying to do here. Now instead of being just another high damage mid range weapon, the shotgun becomes a counter to big guns and snipers.
I could see myself creating a 2 aimed shot shotgun build, (with jet or 2 action boys obviously) for the sole purpose of countering BGs and Snipers in PvP.
Imagine it, people are fighting in town for TC or whatever, they turn a corner or enter a building and BOOM you cripple their right arm. Guess whose not using their weapon any more? With two aimed shots you can double tap, BOOM BOOM, eye damage and crippled right arm. Did you kill the player with those aimed shots? Probably not, but you have rendered them useless. Making the shotgun a type of utility weapon for crowd control.
I know what you may be thinking, "well this just sounds like a mid range sniper." So make it so that the perk doesn't rely on crits. This way it doesn't have to be another 10 luck, more critical, even more critical build. Giving the player much more versatility in what perks they want.
*edit in name and reqs.
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Surgical Shotgun Precision
Requirements: Small Guns 200, Doctor 150
That's far, far too big requirements. You don't need 200 SG with any shotgun and Doctor 150 is a lot even for pure doctor character.
I would suggest Small guns 150% (maybe even less) and Repair 100% + doing some shotgun-related quest for flavor.
"You know everything about shotguns, you can shoot faster with them -1AP", terrible description, but something like that :P
or Higher chance to cripple it's interesting too.
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That's far, far too big requirements. You don't need 200 SG with any shotgun and Doctor 150 is a lot even for pure doctor character.
I would suggest Small guns 150% (maybe even less) and Repair 100% + doing some shotgun-related quest for flavor.
"You know everything about shotguns, you can shoot faster with them -1AP", terrible description, but something like that :P
or Higher chance to cripple it's interesting too.
Yeah the reqs were a bit ridiculous, I have edited them. Maybe the perk could say:
"Your skill with the shotgun and your knowledge of human anatomy allows you to target pressure points and break them."
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(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101012145040/fallout/images/thumb/0/08/ShotgunSurgeon.png/190px-ShotgunSurgeon.png)
Half the work is already done for a perk like this.
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Any perk to do with combat is not going to be a support perk, it'll be a normal perk.
Extra chances to cripple, well, its kind of stepping on the toes of the Melee weapon effects I was planning, but I suppose it could work if they occurred at a reduced rate with respect to them.
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The only thing what (bigger, bursting) shotguns need, is a knockback effect added to every burst (same way as slapping, no AP negated, but you need to raise up again), and possibly a small chance of crippling limbs with bursts (scatter damage doesn't only hit you in the tors).
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Although the damage is decent, it doesn't compensates for the severely limited range enough to make it a useful weapon. Doing the same damage at 1 hex as at maximum range doesn't help either. Most people that use high end shotguns I think do it only for a goof and only against npcs.
I would like it if the bursts cause knock downs. If they only caused knockbacks that cost no AP that would have no effect in tb combat.
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and possibly a small chance of crippling limbs with bursts (scatter damage doesn't only hit you in the tors).
This really needs to be standard for every weapon. Fallout Tactics used a system where if you did an unaimed shot at an enemy it could hit a random body part, including the eyes and groin. If you spray a burst with a minigun and hit your 14/14 bullets in your random bullshit cone, not all of them will hit the torso, they will go all over the enemy.
Hell, just carry over everything Fallout Tactics did in the multiplayer department minus Browning M2 and Gauss Miniguns (ok, also perks like Psychotic (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Psychotic) and Steady Arm (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Steady_Arm)). There, a working pvp system tried and true.
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What kind of characteristics can ammo have?
Can it increase crit chance?
Can it increase range?
Can it increase cripple rate in crits?
Can it make attacks cost less or more ap?
Can it change the attack type of weapon?
Can it bypass or reduce armor from certain range?
It would help to have lots of characteristics in ammo, would allow variety.
Maybe not too far, maybe just explosive ammo, wich causes explosive damage rendering Toughness useless against it. I hate to hear about flechettes, slugs, etc. we need surrealistic stuff for a Fallout based game, we need explosive, conmotion, warp, void, EMP, magnetic or incendiary ammo (please no dragons breath)
They should never be dismobilized by another player or anything else for longer than brief moments.
Thats the gold rule of any multiplayer game ever invented, with the exception of Bioshock 2, but that game have a different system based in low damage for guns and big mobility for players.
The only thing what (bigger, bursting) shotguns need, is a knockback effect added to every burst (same way as slapping, no AP negated, but you need to raise up again), and possibly a small chance of crippling limbs with bursts (scatter damage doesn't only hit you in the torso).
NO, i prefer actual system that more odds or knockback effects.
Although the damage is decent, it doesn't compensates for the severely limited range enough to make it a useful weapon. Doing the same damage at 1 hex as at maximum range doesn't help either. Most people that use high end shotguns I think do it only for a goof and only against npcs.
The way it should work is making shotguns make more damage at, lets say 12 hex than other Burst guns, and keep it doing same damage at all ranges
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The only thing what (bigger, bursting) shotguns need, is a knockback effect added to every burst (same way as slapping, no AP negated, but you need to raise up again), and possibly a small chance of crippling limbs with bursts (scatter damage doesn't only hit you in the tors).
gr8 idea, nothing more is needed, btw why the dmg is always the same? 1 hex burst should have been stronger
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gr8 idea, nothing more is needed, btw why the dmg is always the same? 1 hex burst should have been stronger
Shotguns burst have no spread, that's why.
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Shotguns having KD effect is way to go, works on F:B. To prevent trolling issues, dont make it 100% reliable.
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Shotguns having KD effect is way to go, works on F:B. To prevent trolling issues, dont make it 100% reliable.
With slug or riot ammo, like ranged HeavyHanded but without much damage. Sounds good.
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With slug or riot ammo, like ranged HeavyHanded but without much damage. Sounds good.
Sounds terrible. We are not talking about trolling people here. Basically, if you have auto KD on burst, you can burst two time in a row at max (three times to empty the clip), that's not immobilizing anyone, especially if you have like 1/2 chance to avoid it with stonewall or only few AP loss with QR, but that makes the weapon quite useful for assaulting rooms without being OP or making people rage because they can't fight back at all.
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yes. Yes! YES!!!
Do it, please.
give shotguns some serious knockdown chance buff ----> make them a viable weapon with something specific to offer to the table
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i like it cause they sorta weak
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they are good in middle range.
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(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s93/Perteks/powershotgun.jpg)
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*cough* http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,11413.0.html
This Problem has been around for quite some time.
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(http://i39.tinypic.com/2pplpwy.jpg)