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Other => Closed Beta => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Winter 2011/2012 => Topic started by: JovankaB on December 19, 2011, 04:02:18 pm
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OK I don't do the close test but from what I heard there is a new trait called "Loner". And apparently it works in a way that you get 10% more experience. Probably someone thought people with 20 one-purpose alts have too difficult life in this game... So I have a suggestion, either:
1. Change the trait name to "Alter", at least it will be accurate.
or
2. Change the way the trait works, to make it actually useful for hardcore loners, not hardcore alters. For example:
- You can't tag people (or people tag you, basically it would have no effect), which would mean you can't travel in groups, join a gang, visit bases/tents of other people... true loner!)
- But your level cap is increased by 3.
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I agree with you. I am a loner player, but I would not take this trait, because it does not give me any benefit (except of getting my max level one day earlier). I really like "increase level cap by 3" idea. Thats fits to loner perfectly (as he has no people support).
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- You can't tag people (or people tag you, basically it would have no effect), which would mean you can't travel in groups, join a gang, visit bases/tents of other people... true loner!)
I had basically this in mind while discussing in the last post: can't join factions. But it's not going to work.
- But your level cap is increased by 3.
I beleave the outcome would be horde of loner alts harnessed for pvp purposes. Can't do tc? Bah, the apes will figure it out. 3 extra levels isn't something they are ready to forget. Doesn't even have to be 3 levels but basically anything pvp related and they will drool after it and abuse anything to reach it.
If something would work then it'd be removing names above heads and not allowing bases. That way the loner would really be alone among unknown players or npcs. Not even mumble would help because combat is so messy.
EDIT: another way would be to grant support ability as a tradeoff instead of pvp abilities. Hell, it should be common sense in traits to not hand away support abilities for pvp abilities. ::Hint:: Small frame, Bonehead and Skilled.
So for giving away the ability to have a base, the char would for example have higher carryweight or bonuses to repair, science and OD.
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Yes, I wasn't too happy with this one. I was hoping someone would suggest something better. I think rather than raising the cap by 3 levels, which would be a big advantage, it could be something like a free level 3 perk when you start.
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Brilliant idea.
lvl 3 perk is not worth it for such harsh malus.
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Could be outdoorsman related as it prohibits taxi usage (like faster movement on map or whatever).
More like +x OD when alone, -2x OD when in party.
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Could be outdoorsman related as it prohibits taxi usage (like faster movement on map or whatever).
More like +x OD when alone, -2x OD when in party.
It could be outdoorsman related, but your second proposition doesn't make sense if I understood it correctly. When in party you don't need OD (unless you are the leader). So there would be no negative side of this trait unless you are a taxi build and taxi builds wouldn't take it because of -2xOD.
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If it is penalty for whole party it can work.
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Brilliant idea.
lvl 3 perk is not worth it for such harsh malus.
Yet, if you are playing a loner it is no malus at all.
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Never, ever being able to join a gang, trade on worldmap, go with some people somewhere or share a tent/base isn't a malus?
In theory yea, but if you are never ever doing it, you are penalizing yourself already.
Even loners take a taxi sometime if they have such opportunity, or visit friends' base.
And it's additional penalty for "loners" who basically play one character with many alts.
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Let's keep the negative effect at not being able to be in a party or join a faction.
As for the positive, I think one option is that you start with a dog companion who is yours forever (I keep picturing that photo of Mad Max and his dog). You travel 10% faster on the WM and your dog provides Awareness for you?
"It's you and your dog against the world. You can't join others, but your dog keeps watch and helps you navigate the wasteland."
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Things are not a malus if you will already avoid them - hopefully we will make trading on the world map not needed so much anyway.
I like the free dog companion idea :)
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Almost every trait, perk or feature can be used by these nasty PvP apes, I heard there are even BG sneakers. Let's leave that "argument", shall we?
For now Loner is useless as it is (to keep classic quote alive). To make it useful, we need to answer one important question - what solo player needs? Higher combat skill? Not much. Higher barter skill? Kinda. Higher "crafting" skills, to get rid of alts? Yes.
So in my not humble opinion Loner should work like a decent bonus for Science, Repair, Outdoorsman, maybe even Barter, maybe even ability to set a Ranger Camp without having a Ranger perk. I mean hell, you resign from having any in-game friends or gang mates, you can't join any group, you can't buy a base, you have to be self-sufficient Mad Max Wannabe wastelander, no alts required. That's real sacrifice in multiplayer game.
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Things are not a malus if you will already avoid them
The malus is you can't break the rule, and it's a rather harsh rule.
You can say the same about most (if not all) traits. If you never carry more than 20, small frame isn't a malus, and so on.
I have played loners (or semi-loners), I know if you play actively there are plenty of situations when you would hate that you took this trait, even as a loner. You met some cool people, they go hunting, oh crap - you can't join them ;D
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All this trait does is make it where you can't have any followers and gain 10% experience more. So basically if you have 10 cha or 1 cha you cannot taxi anybody and can't have mercs but you can still join groups and be taxied.
I think its like a role play trait or if you want to level faster but I have never seen 10% more experience ever be of any use. So for example a mutated molerat instead of 300exp you get 310 experience. I see this as the anti-tent follower perk or maybe it well level a tad bit faster but not by much. Its a useless trait if you ask me.
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What about tagging 4 skills instead of 3. Maybe the 4th one could be only non combat skill.
But I really like the outdoorsman boost idea and dog idea too. ;)
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Maybe the effects should be lessened a bit? Harsh giveaways deserve big benefits and big benefits are like blood on water for sharks. Abusing cheater sharks.
For example like this: when alone you move faster in WM but when in group it moves slower in general.
Almost every trait, perk or feature can be used by these nasty PvP apes, I heard there are even BG sneakers. Let's leave that "argument", shall we?
Yeah but certain people are ready to go to incredible lengths to get an edge over others. That then encourages their competitors to do the same or suffer defeat. Call it the Vicious Circle of Abuse. So those abusers shouldn't be tempted to abuse in first place.
For now Loner is useless as it is (to keep classic quote alive). To make it useful, we need to answer one important question - what solo player needs? Higher combat skill? Not much. Higher barter skill? Kinda. Higher "crafting" skills, to get rid of alts? Yes.
So in my not humble opinion Loner should work like a decent bonus for Science, Repair, Outdoorsman, maybe even Barter, maybe even ability to set a Ranger Camp without having a Ranger perk. I mean hell, you resign from having any in-game friends or gang mates, you can't join any group, you can't buy a base, you have to be self-sufficient Mad Max Wannabe wastelander, no alts required. That's real sacrifice in multiplayer game.
You would have to have all skills 300%, infinite ammount of tents available and max cw to reflect the tradeoff for not having alts and that wouldn't even be enough. The choices available for someone who uses alts vs someone who doesn't is rather massive. This trait can never compete with the options alts unlock to a player and it shouldn't because in the end shouldn't the whole game encourage to not have support alts?
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PvE boost if you're alone in encounter or instance (in quest). Invisible boost to all non-combat skill and invisible boost for all to hit chances, invisible also means if you have 70% to hit to target, but because of boost you have 90%, you'll see 70% near cursor, to not provide player with information about someone's presence in encounter.
Or same boost if there're no players in ~30 hexes, everywhere including towns. You can even craft something that requires 40% science if you have only 20%, if there're no players near workbrench, steal better from NPC, kill NPCs with +20% to hit chance, travel on WM alone a bit better because of +20% outdoorsman.
Also instead of "30 hexes" it can be "no other players in your FoV" or "You're not seen by other players", to have benefit for sneak skill, so until you're seen by someone, Loner trait will work, if you're in someone's FoV, you'll lose benefit. So you need to craft with low science skill when no one sees you at workbrench (or buy cave/base for it). Also it can affect gathering cooldown, so if you're in mine and no one sees you, you'll get less gathering CD on few %.
Btw penalty can be opposite thing, you can have party, but you'll lose -20% to all skills, may be also you'll be more likely to critically miss, and penalty to your AC, if you're seen by someone.
Also it can affect IN and CH (again it won't be shown in SPECIAL), +/- when no one sees you/someone sees you. So when no one in NCR bazaar, you can trade with Sha Enin with 1 CH! But if some guy spots you, Sha Enin will stop talking to you and start talk about mutants and that you need to see doctor because of your appearance.
Most likely "You're not seen by other players" is more suitable, because loners can actually work for some group or with friends, but they act better when no one observes it, of course their victims usually don't count as observers, but in FOnline it's impossible to know who's enemy and who's friend from system's points of view, so every creature with name above, except for GMs and devs, who sees Loner, should make him suffer from penalty of this trait, if Loner isn't seen by anyone, he'll get boost to all skills, +2 or +1 CH and IN for dialogue/other requirements check.
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I would rather have Night Person trait back :(
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PvE boost if you're alone in encounter or instance (in quest). Invisible boost to all non-combat skill and invisible boost for all to hit chances, invisible also means if you have 70% to hit to target, but because of boost you have 90%, you'll see 70% near cursor, to not provide player with information about someone's presence in encounter.
Or same boost if there're no players in ~30 hexes, everywhere including towns. You can even craft something that requires 40% science if you have only 20%, if there're no players near workbrench, steal better from NPC, kill NPCs with +20% to hit chance, travel on WM alone a bit better because of +20% outdoorsman.
Also instead of "30 hexes" it can be "no other players in your FoV" or "You're not seen by other players", to have benefit for sneak skill, so until you're seen by someone, Loner trait will work, if you're in someone's FoV, you'll lose benefit. So you need to craft with low science skill when no one sees you at workbrench (or buy cave/base for it). Also it can affect gathering cooldown, so if you're in mine and no one sees you, you'll get less gathering CD on few %.
Btw penalty can be opposite thing, you can have party, but you'll lose -20% to all skills, may be also you'll be more likely to critically miss, and penalty to your AC, if you're seen by someone.
Also it can affect IN and CH (again it won't be shown in SPECIAL), +/- when no one sees you/someone sees you. So when no one in NCR bazaar, you can trade with Sha Enin with 1 CH! But if some guy spots you, Sha Enin will stop talking to you and start talk about mutants and that you need to see doctor because of your appearance.
Most likely "You're not seen by other players" is more suitable, because loners can actually work for some group or with friends, but they act better when no one observes it, of course their victims usually don't count as observers, but in FOnline it's impossible to know who's enemy and who's friend from system's points of view, so every creature with name above, except for GMs and devs, who sees Loner, should make him suffer from penalty of this trait, if Loner isn't seen by anyone, he'll get boost to all skills, +2 or +1 CH and IN for dialogue/other requirements check.
o0
That's just way too complicated. I think if anything this trait was meant to be a PvP ape perk so you could level a tad bit faster since most current PvP characters are 1 cha as is so there is no point in having the ability to taxi. That is the impression I got and my assumption, and my friend was still able to taxi me when I had this trait.
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10% from 300 is 30 not 10
So MMR will give 330 exp.
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Ravenous is on to something I think... but how about this? When you are a Loner in a group you suffer a penalty to skills? Because Ravenous's version is making this the best perk ever... there's no drawback. And yes, it is way too complicated. but you have to admit that this is a really cool idea.
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too complicated
too complicated
Ok, I'll make the same post again, but will use less letters. I hope it'll be less complicated for you then:
"If you're being seen by other player, and he's not GM/Dev, you'll get -X% to all your skill checks, or else +X%. It can also affect +/-X CH/IN checks."
That's all.
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For now Loner is useless as it is (to keep classic quote alive). To make it useful, we need to answer one important question - what solo player needs? Higher combat skill? Not much. Higher barter skill? Kinda. Higher "crafting" skills, to get rid of alts? Yes.
So in my not humble opinion Loner should work like a decent bonus for Science, Repair, Outdoorsman, maybe even Barter, maybe even ability to set a Ranger Camp without having a Ranger perk. I mean hell, you resign from having any in-game friends or gang mates, you can't join any group, you can't buy a base, you have to be self-sufficient Mad Max Wannabe wastelander, no alts required. That's real sacrifice in multiplayer game.
Yes Sir! Plus a way more (More, MOAR!) carry weight!
Or instead of bonus to cerain skills it'd be:
What about tagging 4 skills instead of 3. Maybe the 4th one could be only non combat skill.
But I really like the outdoorsman boost idea and dog idea too. ;)
But still with additional carry weight... (since it's gonna be lower after wipe than can be now [3 strong back + packrat now is > than strongback and packrat after wipe] and carry weight is one of my favourite "abilities")
My other idea is to add an "animal friend" effect if possible
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I think its like a role play trait or if you want to level faster but I have never seen 10% more experience ever be of any use. So for example a mutated molerat instead of 300exp you get 310 experience.
well it is 330:)
i prefer more pvp or pve bonus skills. loner need to be more tougher than normal player. so maby it will be extra 20%bonus to ++perk, ++toughes you can get +1/5% more resist, same with ++/+++brd +1-2damage more, ++/+++life giver +15-25 bonus hp...it would depent what you want to be good at, and/or 20% main skill. so loner could handle small pvp group or large pve encounter. i know it will be littler to much but with that solution solo player with loner perk can be hard like a rock...solo motherfucker...;]
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Yes 330%, not 310% my fault.
Look RavenousRat I do not think its a bad idea it is a very unique idea but how would they implement something in game like this which wasn't meant to work that way? That is why I say its too complicated, we would never have a wipe and a new session if they spent their time on something like this.
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well it is 330:)
i prefer more pvp or pve bonus skills. loner need to be more tougher than normal player. so maby it will be extra 20%bonus to ++perk, ++toughes you can get +1/5% more resist, same with ++/+++brd +1-2damage more, ++/+++life giver +15-25 bonus hp...it would depent what you want to be good at, and/or 20% main skill. so loner could handle small pvp group or large pve encounter. i know it will be littler to much but with that solution solo player with loner perk can be hard like a rock...solo motherfucker...;]
It's interesting idea and personally I was also thinking about something that can make you a bit "lone hero" also in PvP at the cost of not being able to get help of other players. But handling "small pvp groups" might be too much (even if small group would be 2 people). In that case there should be even more severe restrictions - like: loner can't be healed by other players, probably no mercenaries should be allowed, and shouldn't see names of other players over their heads (like avv mentioned).
But then it's getting too complicated and open to exploit.
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Ok, I'll make the same post again, but will use less letters. I hope it'll be less complicated for you then:
"If you're being seen by other player, and he's not GM/Dev, you'll get -X% to all your skill checks, or else +X%. It can also affect +/-X CH/IN checks."
That's all.
Why cant you type like this instead of walls of texts. This is much more comprehensible. Skill maluses/bonuses sound ok.
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Why cant you type like this instead of walls of texts. This is much more comprehensible. Skill maluses/bonuses sound ok.
Because the idea of +/- X while on/out of FoV came to me in process, 1st I started with PvE instances only, then 30 hexes, etc.
Well next time I'll delete all my previous ideas and leave only the last one if you really need it so much.
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What would happen if you choose one or two Magnetic Personality perk levels on Loner? Would it allow a single follower in his party?
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why he cant be healed by other players or see names over heads? he cant follow or be merc leader so solo players can make tb/rt traps using radio but after that they are on their own. i am saing 1vs2 (ncr trolls/crafters) not pvp builds ;] so if you want to make tank build with loner perk your ++/+++ perks same class will be boosted : ++toughnes +1/5% resist. ++/+++brd +1/2damage. ++/+++lg +10/+15hp. ++critical chance +5%crits and boosted +15% main skills so he can be medic/armor/weapon crafter and also pvp build at same time because it is +45%to skill so one char can make all shit what is doing your alt crafter. about mercs - they are allready nerfed so i wouldnt change anything. this build with lover would kick ass in pvp/pve battles but in tc it could be usless. and loner should be able to join vc/bos/enclave/raiders to get crafter class. so i see a lot of loner platers and they are to weak to make 2nd char so one loner char could be little better than typical pvp build. with 10ag/10str and +++lg and +++brd char would have 305hp (290+15), +9damage (7+2). and loner cant follow r be leader of any group and he cant be invited as friend to bases.
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and i would call this perk not "loner" but "dirty harry" :)
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Well, I'm not in the closed beta but if what I see on the character planner is correct fast metabolism is still in? Perhaps there could be a trait for leader characters that involve either your Slaves lvling up 10-20% faster, a lower chance of them revolting against you upkeep on them lowered or even +to their AC? I mean if you give loners a trait leaders deserve one too! ;D
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Okay, now...
I think the Loner perk sucks balls as it is - so i state as an experienced FOnline player.
If you don't want another PvP ape alt, you shall waste 3 perk slots on MagneticPersonality, so you can bring a brahmin to your tent for some hot roleplay.
Also, i call bullshit on this:
well it is 330:)
i prefer more pvp or pve bonus skills. loner need to be more tougher than normal player. so maby it will be extra 20%bonus to ++perk, ++toughes you can get +1/5% more resist, same with ++/+++brd +1-2damage more, ++/+++life giver +15-25 bonus hp...it would depent what you want to be good at, and/or 20% main skill. so loner could handle small pvp group or large pve encounter. i know it will be littler to much but with that solution solo player with loner perk can be hard like a rock...solo motherfucker...;]
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Every loner in postapo movies gets into trouble when find some group and otherhand people mostly want to join loner. Every loner is bad ass jack of all trades, who is on his epic lonely quest and want to stay safe and away from troubles.
pros not in party:
- outdoorsman +some nice value
- PE, AG, EN, LK +some nice value
- safer tent
- stronger back to carry more weight
- faster craft
- better barter
- PvE +%
traits general:
- cant join gang
- cant have more than 1 slave
- PvP -%
traits in party:
- removed all pros of loner trait
- only one loner in party, and people love him ( cha of all in party -2)
- loner gets into trouble ( -luck, -pe, -en, -ag)
- people gets into trouble - so loner have to rescue them :P (some big % more chance of missing hit in fight, -% to critics for all in party)
- loner hates walking with peoples cause it is loud and not safe (- big value of outdoorsman for party)
:D This trait should be for people who want to play as loner not for alts etc.
Start looking about 2:50, from 5:10 jump to 7:05
check how McCoy is playing loner and interacting with people,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zq7gBou5SE
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traits general:
- cant join gang
- cant have more than 1 slave
traits in party:
If you want prevent alting with more powerful loner, you CAN'T allow the loner to travel in party.
Because it would mean loner can assist other alts in 100% safe locations.
Rule "tagging has no effect" is simple and takes care of most team features (sneaking among friends/traveling with taxi/joining gang/sharing locations). There is still a little problem with radio and especially with car locations, that maybe would have to be dealt somehow separately.
I also think instead of creating complicated bonuses just increasing level cap is better, because it gives more freedom about the build. Why loner has to be jack of ALL trades? Loner still can try to get help in towns, from other people or NPCs. 3 extra levels maybe is too much, but maybe if HP didn't increase after 24 level, it wouldn't be imba in PvP and wouldn't be abused for gang PvP alt purposes.
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ok simplier:
Loner in party means party gets in trouble. Loner in party means loner gets in trouble.
Loner can't join gang. Loner is trait for people who won't to join anyone, who just play for fun lonely, like me.
Loner is one who do everything himself, sometimes trade. He will escape from fight. And may be good in 1vs1 but 1vsMany isn't for him.
So such trait shouldn't be nice for alts (it may also level slower than faster - like Eli who traveled 30 years), but have to give much fun for players who are outside of gangs wars. Who sometimes come to hub or ncr for a drink, barter, speak about rumors, who is valuable as crafter but is not crafting machine for gang.
And party get big cons when travelling with loner - if You don't allow him traveling in party big part of game lost its sense. When loner joins party it take more charisma, so party will not be big, and even it needs more cha to invite loner into party.
Hey, but this is only my own vision :) I dont have enough knowledge about mechanics, also it need to be tested if it works.
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I think some ideas are a little bit ambitious ;)
Having acess to another top level perk is a big bonus, I dont think thats right. Something like a free low level perk, free 20% on selected skills starting levels, a free dog follower with high outdoors - these things are more reaslistic.
Slight boosts that will help a loner get up and running.
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Well, if it's about easier start, call the perk "Noober" :P Experienced players don't need it, definitely it's not worth any malus for them.
But I think it would be a good idea, to add a trait that would make life easier for newbies.
In that case I think things that are real pain for noobs should be studied and considered, not things that "sound cool" (like the dog, sorry).
Something that makes you stronger/more immune on low levels but slightly weaker (by a tiny fracion, just enough to scare away power players/alters) on high level.
Bonus example: until level 9 you respawn with the items you had when you died (to prevent this to be looter trait the chance to get item on respawn should depend on how strong the item is, BA,plasma rifle = 0% chance, 10mm pistol = 100%, quest items = 100% )
Malus: no idea, something small that kicks in over level 15, preferably malus for PvP
Or maybe the dog could bring your items to you after death :)
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I like solar idea. If the dog is better than the commons, and the posibility of level up. Because if haves like 40 hp and die from 2 mantis, whould suck BAD. Like in max level being same power than a baby deathclaw whould be good.
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How about when you first create your character you get the free dog (maybe give it 1-2 toughness or something to make it not a walk in the park for everything to kill +living anatomy) possibly giving you awareness or when you have said dog your PE is increased by 1-2 points. After the dog dies you have the option of buying the same type from the dog dealer whereas anyone without this trait could only get the terrible ones and yes the dog should be able to level up/possibly rebuy the dog for higher price so it keeps it's levels.
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I think newbie thing may increase alt characters count.
Other approach: "loner guild".
When You got loner trait You cannot join party, but there are some outposts (loner motels - based on "Café of Broken Dreams") for loners only, here sellers got lower barter skill and You may rent a room or buy cheap dog. Some enemies in encounters dont fight with loners, and maybe something like "derusted items" - standard items which are little better (for example +few % of dmg) but detoration of items is extremely high and items are very fallible without loner trait. Also such items may be done only from standard items via fixboy "derust" recipe. (I take this idea from MadMax car, which was usable only for Rocketansky)
ps. outpost may be visible on map only for loners
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extra skill points and 0 party points + no slaves seems balanced. anything making you stronger is overpowered and will be abused.
not being able to tag/follow is impractical and damages roleplay, making loner purely for alts and apes.
What would mad max be if he never interacted with other characters in the movie? a guy sitting there eating beans with a dog, not very exciting.
an extra tag skill ino would be perfect (if it can be done).
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tagging off
cant use science on hides, when loner is in map
And then loner would be really loner, so can hae some bonus. But why someone is a loner? Because he can handle himself, and dont need any help. So maybe some extra skill points for crafting skills? Extra slot for profession? Ability to make 3 tents (but still loner tents)? Free dog every respawn?
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What would mad max be if he never interacted with other characters in the movie?
he would be happy :) and interaction doesn't mean party
Not very exciting for You, but I almost 2 years play as loner and I love it (that's why this thread is interesting for me). There are many play styles and loners are mostly casual players who play for fun before sleep. Loner should be little overpowered but not usable for alts, slower leveling cause it is for fun, not for fast exping killer for gang and it makes too difficult creating loner as alt. Even relog time may be much longer (but I guess this is not possible or hard to set it individual)
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The issue i have with no tagging may come down to perceived 'loner; in role-play.
For me, that means a lone gun man, but sometimes a gun for hire.
That means, you need to travel with people, many people roleplay like this. Get a job in NCR, travel with your new boss, but no real loyalties- waiting to get paid.
However maybe roleplaying a loner for others is forever alone on world map, trading on forum to meet in towns and combat.
Maybe there are other types of loners.
I think blocking a core mechanic like follow is crazy. its a multiplayer game, loner characters should be encouraged but in a multi-player way.
cant use science on hides, when loner is in map
Seems fair but then to counter balance that i think a concession such as loners are aloud more then one tent, its a big map after all.
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I'm not sure how its been implemented, you're just meant to be unable to lead a party (so no slaves, mercs, etc or lead a group of people).
Does it currently stop you joining a party too?
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guys You dont understand, do You? It doesn't mean forever alone, this mean they often meet in some places, encounters, help each other in other way than walking toghether and killing all what is moving. You want to hire him, leave message on some board (I dont know if it is implemented if not another suggestion here) or find him in city shouting that You hire people, then tell him what to do and where to go (coords? or next suggestion mark on someones map some places - only when he got big outdoorsman). Loners aren't characters for fighting, more for survive.
And this is trait (negative meaning), someone who get it, will know what he is taking.
If You want to add some small things it doesn't make sense like now, if You allow them parting or party doesn't have noticable cons it may ends that loners will be walking in groups and form gangs (nonsense)...
Loners dont use taxi's, loners don't go into gang fights - they are outsiders, so pros and cons should cover it.
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What would mad max be if he never interacted with other characters in the movie?
You can interact with people in towns and in random encounters.
You can do jobs for other people, just not travel along with them or sit in their hidden base.
You can't have traveling in party ability, or it WILL be used by gang alts (sharing locations etc) and proxying loners.
It opens too many possibilities to abuse the idea.
I'm not sure how its been implemented, you're just meant to be unable to lead a party (so no slaves, mercs, etc or lead a group of people).
What I meant was disabled tag button/option, which would be simple (I suppose) and take care of most of the team features.
- if a no-loner uses context menu on a loner, the tag button is disabled (but visible)
- if a loner uses context menu on anyone, the tag button is hidden
Note the difference. I think the button should be still visible but grayed out in the case no-loner uses context menu on a loner (maybe with "Loner" text on it or some other way to show why the button is disabled) because for no-loners the option sometimes would work and sometimes not (depends who they clicked). Loners clicking others can have the button hidden completely, because it would never appear in their interface. Is this confusing? :P
Anyway, this is client UI idea. Tagging loners should also be checked by server side script to prevent hacking.
I think there still would be a possibility to share car location/radio. This might be a problem, especially cars. But I don't exactly remember how remembering these locations work. If there is a way to make them work as a shared tent this shouldn't be possible for a loner.
This wouldn't prevent you from having NPC followers or to join NPC factions, because you don't tag anyone to do this. I suppose NPC factions are still necessary for some professions and I think loners should be able to take them. But maybe not.
Having mercs doesn't mean you are not a loner. They are not your friends, they work for you for money ;) Same about slaves (especially slaves). But I think this is a problem of balancing merc build, not the loner trait, so I think NPC followers should be allowed.
Proposed trait description: You are a loner. You have a hard time working in teams, but [put bonus here]
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You can't have traveling in party ability, or it WILL be used by gang alts (sharing locations etc) and proxying loners.
It opens too many possibilities to abuse the idea.
But the idea is too ambitious. Not being able to have a base is a big tradeoff so you should get a good refine for that. However if you get a good refine, it's just another reason to make an alt. Character-based benefits will always create more alts.
And even if the benefit is something that would only help solo char player it would fail as feature because the mechanics still encourage alting in general. Features must be designed so that they match the actual gameplay, not so that they match some fantasy non-existing gameplay that we'd wish to have (Mad Max wannabes).
So small benefit for small tradeoff is in this case the best choice.
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No matter how big are benefits, loner should be hard enough to prevent using it as alts, but good enough to play them as main char.
my points in summary
- hard to use as alt
- usable and quite big bonus for lonely play (every hour of play daily +bonus, but max is X hours only to get profits, and starts after Y hours)
- safe places where only loners may rent a cheap room (cafe of broken dreams map)
- ingame time based leveling
- no parties and gangs
- dog respawn with You
- de-rusted items, usable only for loners (normal detoration), when used by other very fast detoration, fixable only by loners, and price when selling derusted item should be very low, cause it brokes to often for normal people
- bigger carry weight (may be based on ingame time too)
- no access to bases
- no more than neutral karma (some max value reachable for loner only not to be hated)
- speech skill max 100%
- low charisma
- not allowed: Gain Charisma, Magnetic Personality, Negotiator, Gambler, Karma Beacon,
- bonus: Survivalist, Mr. Fixit, Pathfinder, Cautious Nature, Earlier Sequence, Faster Healing, Awareness, Explorer
- worst (maybe available on much higher levels): Strong Back, Thief, Pyromaniac, Master Thief, Lifegiver, Medic, Dodger, Bonus HtH Damage, Action Boy etc
- bonus for PvE, lower damage in PvP
You are forgetting that loner character is for those "fantasy" role players.
ingame time based leveling explained:
(http://rudo-brody.pl/uploads/2011-12-23_1437.png)
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And even if the benefit is something that would only help solo char player it would fail as feature because the mechanics still encourage alting in general. Features must be designed so that they match the actual gameplay, not so that they match some fantasy non-existing gameplay that we'd wish to have (Mad Max wannabes).
There are Mad Max wannabes in this game, it would match their gameplay.
You probably don't see them, because most of them don't take part in mumbel-enabled gang PvP.
Base is a convenience because of workbench and enemy list, but not necessary.
Not having a base is not a huge trade-off for real loner chars who don't poweruse alts like you (*cough*).
I understand you don't like the idea, it would exclude you from this trait, because you are a big alter. ;)
But your post gives me a hint for alters it would be too big inconvenience using it, which is good.
^
Of course I just used circumstantial ad hominem attack, which pretty much makes my post worthless.
Damn Christmas season, it triggered my honesty!
I guess my argument is that this trait, if properly balanced bonus and malus, wouldn't encourage alting.
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A lot of these ideas are again going past what the trait is aiming for.
I don't want to doom people to what is essentially a single player out of towns.
I want to stop them using mercs (and joining gangs would be good too) and leading others around.
To trade off against this I want to make it easier for them to be self sufficient.
I think unable to be tagged, get mercs and join gangs vs +20% or so to science, repair, barter and an always respawning dog with 100% outdoors is somewhere in the right ballpark
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Also, i call bullshit on this:
bullshit...well mr smart ass there is a lot of solo players who dont have any gang and they should have some chance against non experience pvp group
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I don't get it.
Why try to reinvent the wheel?
+Loner gets +10% to all rolls (skills, chance to hit, chance to crit, crit table, everything) when he/she/it is alone (as in alone on the map without any players, slaves, mercs, friendly or neutral npcs or within xyz hex - whatever is easer to implement).
-Loner gets -10% to all rolls when he/she/it is not alone.
Trait should stick to game mechanics and "unable to be tagged" seams something like "unable to right-click" or "unable to zoomout" or "can't use the letter P", that's silly.
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I don't get it.
Why try to reinvent the wheel?
+Loner gets +10% to all rolls (skills, chance to hit, chance to crit, crit table, everything) when he/she/it is alone (as in alone on the map without any players, slaves, mercs, friendly or neutral npcs or within xyz hex - whatever is easer to implement).
-Loner gets -10% to all rolls when he/she/it is not alone.
Trait should stick to game mechanics and "unable to be tagged" seams something like "unable to right-click" or "unable to zoomout" or "can't use the letter P", that's silly.
because: "guys i'm going to do some crafter, it will be fast i will take loner trait" what is main reason why some people want to name this trait "alter"
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because: "guys i'm going to do some crafter, it will be fast i will take loner trait" what is main reason why some people want to name this trait "alter"
Still dont't get it.
If the 10% bonus/penalty is not a modifier visible on the character screen but actually done at a lower level dice roll
[pseudo-code]
if(loner)
Random(10,110)
else
Random(0, 100)
[/pseudo-code]
What would a crafter need a +10% on any rolls ???
Even if the boost would be +50%, it still would take longer to get from lv1 to lv16 for a loner-crafter then for a normal crafter+ lv20 flamer wielding B-guner.
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(http://rudo-brody.pl/uploads/2011-12-23_1437.png)
Interesting idea but it won't work. That's not how leveling up alts is done by most powerplayers.
You don't relog, you sit on your butt half a day and kill molerats/centaurs.
Then, after a few sessions like this, it is done and you don't care about XP any more.
Besides the xping "warmup" would be very frustrating for PvP players, and it really doesn't look fair.
They would have to kill stupid mobs for a few hours before they would start getting some good XP.
And they would still do this grinding or quit FOnline.
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So maybe gaining exp only for 1-2 hours daily (casual players) and then stops, it would take much longer to exp than normal char, but stats bonus should be nice when exp is 0.
Otherhand there aren't any 100% bulletproof solutions, once long time ago I've played on 4 accounts at once :D so we need to make it boring and not profitable to use loner as alt.
PvP != Loner
Loner ~= Explorer, fun casual player
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I was hoping for less frustration for loners, not more frustration for PvP gangs.
It's not a zero-sum game, at least I hope you can make it a bit easier for loner builds without making life of PvP more painful.
XPing penalties really is frustrating for PvP people who try new combat builds etc.
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This is for loner only pattern ;D
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This is for loner only pattern ;D
OH, sorry then I misunderstood. Then maybe it's not a bad idea because the point of crafting alt is to XP it fast.
As long as bonuses were non-pvp related it could work.
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For me , as a loner - it would be only pain in ass trait. Better would be one which would have adv in PvE and disadv in PvP - that would help much more. In other way loner would give + for healing yourself, + for giving outdoors to yourself but would not heal much other and do not travel well with Players (not counting dogs :P) or slaves/mercs. That would be more usable than some alter trait.
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I guess my argument is that this trait, if properly balanced bonus and malus, wouldn't encourage alting.
Listen the first 14 seconds of this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pm4fQRl72k&ob=av3n) and you will get the picture of typical powergamer mentality. So basically only way to balance this trait so that it won't encourage alting would be that it gives you access to every option alts provide. And I mean every.
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Loner player needs:
- character with good combat skills
- get rid of crafting/barter alts
- maybe extra carryweight?
What about this:
- +2 CH (you can talk to merchants, take quests...)
- you can have only 2 NPC followers
- you can't have any player followers
- you occupy four seats while travelling by car with party
- you are count four times while joining party
And another proposal:
- +2 CH (you can talk to merchants, take quests...)
- +50% to science, repair, doctor, first aid, outdoorsman
- you can have only 2 NPC followers
- you can't have any player followers
- you occupy four seats while travelling by car with party
- you are count four times while joining party
- you can't join player-driven faction