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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Thattroll on December 15, 2010, 07:48:19 pm
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Hi im pretty new to the Fonline forums/game and now im pretty setup with a tent and guns and armour etc. BUT The one thing that gets on my nerves IS Idiots walking around pickpocketing you and tagging you to bug you and pickpocket you my suggestions are
1.Remove pickpocketing
2.Make a option to allow them to tag you for instance *John has tagged you allow? Y/N"
Thanks please hope you read and THIS WORKS!
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1. why do so? its easy to avoid thiefs...
2. why do so? you can throw them out from party on world map...
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Mostly i think PickPocketing is one of the worst ideas noobs do it 24/7 and earn more items than us working for it. it annoys me so much how the noobs can just get away then if you try to pk them you die instead!
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As I stated already - its easy to avoid them, so why do you even bother about it?
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move to unguarded town, they are safer
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Mostly i think PickPocketing is one of the worst ideas noobs do it 24/7 and earn more items than us working for it.
The opposite, they waste a lot of time, when in 5 minuts they may go find the right encounter with unity or master army and ncr, and get away with loot for many k caps.
Sometime I think that thieves are the roleplayers of the wasteland, but probably they are trolls, and from your nick you too.
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First off, no.
This suggestion only consists of noob-safeties in NCR that would just make it more annoying for everyone else. You would just get rid of a skill that's always been part of Fallout games. Don't just say "I hate thieves!!! Delete them all!". Instead, try to think of a solution that would change how the skill works, not just get rid of it because you can't think of anyway to prevent someone from stealing from you (aka walking one hex away from them, staying alert).
Edit: Besides this, thievery is one of the most unproductive skills in the game, as you can get as much loot in 10 minutes fighting in encounters as you would in all day of trying to steal in NCR. Yet, people just don't get that, so they continue to fail to steal the 2 caps I have in my inventory.
The second suggestion would just make it annoying when players are using the tagging feature the right way, as in wanting 5+ other people to join their party to hunt. That, and a group wouldn't be able to run from an encounter together, because they would have to accept it before going, wasting precious seconds. A better solution would be to have some sort of tone or alert-message saying that "_____ has joined your party" without having you actually having to waste time to accept them.
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A better solution would be to have some sort of tone or alert-message saying that "_____ has joined your party" without having you actually having to waste time to accept them.
This sounds better but it'll dull your own awareness in checking if you've been tagged because if you don't notice it now you'd get yourself killed, your stuff looted from tent if you're silly enough not to check or place your tent right next to town giving yourself little time to check.
Also with high enough outdoorsman and carrying little of value on yourself you could take them on a short trip (if they decide to leave first) or a long one (they hope to kill you in encounter or hopeful you are heading to tent) 8).
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That little thieves, hehe.
I was once buying a tool at NCR and someone came and pick a key from my pockets quicker than I could realize, due to my high ping. Anyways, that kind of things do happen, and it is more fun somehow because it makes a more realistic game experience, hehe. Take it easy.
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Remove pickpocketing? I totally disagree.
Probably some rework of pickpocketing system should be done to prevent 4lvl "skilled"-traited(160% steal skill) alts from stealing each 30 seconds.
Let it be 10 mins cd,that could be reduced to 30 seconds only by maxing steal skill + picking some high-level perk (e.g. make "master thief" perk reduce steal cd by a half in addition to what it does now).
P.S.: not sure if steal cd is still as low as it was earlier.
P.P.S.: Another way to make pickpocketing "harder" is to reduce chances of stealing drastically. Or just add a Luck-roll to it. Or just scale it with Luck in such way, that the thief with 300% steal skill could have 300% steal-check only if this thief has 10 Luck and his target has 1 Luck.
(sry for bad syntax in last sentences).
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Here we go again...
Nerfing steal will only make the trolls make more alts and multi-quick-log.
Gambling and speach has been a part of fallout but it's not a part of fonline... stealing could join those skills.
This skill has its origin (like all rpg) in DnD, but there was a skill called Spot, there was a skill vs skill roll, putting skill points into spot could make you thief-proof. There's nothing in FO that stops thiefs, if he dosen't run away,you can shoot him if he fails, if a npc seen that, you can pick up your items if you get to the body first. That's a lot of ifs.
The world would be so much better if only people would listen to me...
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This skill has its origin (like all rpg) in DnD, but there was a skill called Spot, there was a skill vs skill roll, putting skill points into spot could make you thief-proof. There's nothing in FO that stops thiefs, if he dosen't run away,you can shoot him if he fails, if a npc seen that, you can pick up your items if you get to the body first. That's a lot of ifs.
Anything that has to do with "more points spent on x equals better chance to win" always leads to minmaxing and alts. Only allowing players to affect their chances to success with their ingame decisions breaks this pattern.
What makes least ammount of sense is that players can't stop someone from stealing you by any other way than running away. Thieves basically play tag in safe towns and nobody can stop them if they just don't get caught. It has always baffled me how can someone come next to me, take my items and walk away protected even if I withnessed the whole act?
Wouldn't it be reasonable that even if thief succeeds to steal, he becomes unprotected but there's no mention about it from guards? So if the victim notices that something was indeed taken from him and he knows who did it, he can just shoot that thief. This way the steal skill% only calculates if you manage to grab the item, not whether nobody saw it or not.
The world would be so much better if only people would listen to me...
Ohohoh, first you gotta listen to others ;)
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What makes least ammount of sense is that players can't stop someone from stealing you by any other way than running away. Thieves basically play tag in safe towns and nobody can stop them if they just don't get caught. It has always baffled me how can someone come next to me, take my items and walk away protected even if I withnessed the whole act?
Wouldn't it be reasonable that even if thief succeeds to steal, he becomes unprotected but there's no mention about it from guards? So if the victim notices that something was indeed taken from him and he knows who did it, he can just shoot that thief. This way the steal skill% only calculates if you manage to grab the item, not whether nobody saw it or not.
The only reason you know and see is because you're looking for it. Normally you would only notice at some point that you've been stolen from but don't know the where and when.
It's not reasonable for thieves to become unprotected when they didn't fail.
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The only reason you know and see is because you're looking for it.
That's pretty obvious. Wouldn't it be sufficient if careful players could keep their belongings and deal wasteland justice instead of being forced to play tag? I mean the game should reward smart gameplay and discourage carelessness or otherwise it turns into circus.
It's not reasonable for thieves to become unprotected when they didn't fail.
It is if they steal crudely without any finesse. Think of it as purse-robbery: A thief grabs an item and makes a run for it. Better thieves would steal so that there was no trace, too bad the game doesn't have much additional options for thieves to use than target someone with steal skill. It'd be completely okay to implement some further sneaking features to be utilized by thieves if obvious stealing would result in getting caught. You haven't got anything against challenge do you?
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That's pretty obvious. Wouldn't it be sufficient if careful players could keep their belongings and deal wasteland justice instead of being forced to play tag? I mean the game should reward smart gameplay and discourage carelessness or otherwise it turns into circus.
It is if they steal crudely without any finesse. Think of it as purse-robbery: A thief grabs an item and makes a run for it. Better thieves would steal so that there was no trace, too bad the game doesn't have much additional options for thieves to use than target someone with steal skill. It'd be completely okay to implement some further sneaking features to be utilized by thieves if obvious stealing would result in getting caught. You haven't got anything against challenge do you?
Wasteland justice can only be dealt when the thief is caught in the act.
I can only speak from personal experience, but not all thieves run away after a successful steal.
Also sneaking wouldn't be an option, it's useless in shops and crowds.
Thieves hide in plain sight in crowds as there's less chance to get noticed.
Again, the only reason it's obvious is the isometric view you have and your character doesn't have.
As for challenge, it would be more likely to go the way of con artists.
1 distracts you, the 2nd steals from you.
Not a change, as you can still see it with your isometric view, which goes for every "solution".
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Thieves are arritating, and of course skill should be reworked.
First of all npc that protect town should kill failed thieves - cos it is logical. If so only high skilled thieves would make often attempts to stole smth from you when you see them and now that they are thieves. And also should be applied feature that prevent using steal skill while weakness, so they should treat themselves of wait 5 min.
Thieves should work unnoticed not like now tracing you so you should every 5 sec move to prevent stealing, thats not normal and sometimes really annoying. Sometimes thieves are staying near trader - so you have no chances to trade - cos when you begin talking you have only 4 second before a thief will make his new attempt for stealing.
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Thieves aren't irritating as long as people don't harass the skill for grieving purposes.
Which unfortunately happens a lot.
NPCs kill failed thieves if they failed stealing from them.
For instance if I fail stealing from the farmer in NCR the guards will shoot me.
IMO guards shoot ignore failed thieves unless the victim is a member of their faction.
In which case it should work like with failed stealing from npc and the thief should be shot on the spot.
Note that there's a difference between a failed steal and a successful steal but with losing protection.
Even low skilled thieves will attempt stealing, although I don't understand why.
All it does is cause their reputation to be really bad when their skill is finally high enough.
I don't understand the connection between stealing and being weak.
I can use all other skills when I'm weak, why should steal be an exception?
Steal has a 30 seconds cooldown.
During the cooldown you can't use the skill.
Every 5 seconds means someone is abusing the animation to harass you.
Some thieves at a trader are actually trading, although some people fail to understand that.
Personally I have some ethics as a thief, although I'm part of a minority with that.
Every red name, every cyrillic named player, every PK, every tent follower, every racist and everyone acting like an ass is a target.
For instance the guy harassing me while trading in the Hub old town yesterday made himself a target.
He tried to push me out of range to trade himself without having to wait.
Although I had over 10k of stuff in my inventory I stole from him.
I hope he understands he has to be patient and well mannered next time.
Stay away from NCR and you avoid at least 80% of all thieves.
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Wasteland justice can only be dealt when the thief is caught in the act.
The point was that alert players cannot increase their odds to catch a thief no matter what they do.
Also sneaking wouldn't be an option, it's useless in shops and crowds.
You'd only need to be invisible to your target. There's rarely so tight crowds in fonline. People tend to position themselves rather loosely. Surely a spotting formula could be arranged to represent guards and players having hard time to notice a thievery that happens when there's many chars in the line of sight. Then a skilled thief would need to check which character has least spectators but most other characters around it to disrupt the spectator's alertness. You couldn't just steal from anyone any time which should be pretty obvious, thats why you'd have to keep constant watch who would be the most optimal target.
Thieves hide in plain sight in crowds as there's less chance to get noticed.
Again, the only reason it's obvious is the isometric view you have and your character doesn't have.
That can be worked too. I have no idea why we can see so far to our sides and behind. Because we hear? Well we shouldn't be able to hear what someone looks like or what his name is. Otherwise should hear behind walls aswell. Less visibility to the flanks and rear would actually be much more interesting in pvp too.
It would be totally okay to not to see a sneaking dude behind me at all.
If the crowded field of view system was also added, players would have to think about where to position their chars. Some areas could be safer (shops and quest zones) but they could become crowded and thus unsafe.
So if you want 100% succesful steal, it'd be a guy who has his back turned against you and has no eyes laid upon him.
As for challenge, it would be more likely to go the way of con artists.
1 distracts you, the 2nd steals from you.
Not a change, as you can still see it with your isometric view, which goes for every "solution".
Indeed. If additional chars reduced the spectator's alertness, it would be encouraged to have a pickpocket-posse who surrounds the victim and one performs the stealing act.
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The point was that alert players cannot increase their odds to catch a thief no matter what they do.
They already have a 100% chance not to be stolen from if they're alert.
You'd only need to be invisible to your target. There's rarely so tight crowds in fonline. People tend to position themselves rather loosely. Surely a spotting formula could be arranged to represent guards and players having hard time to notice a thievery that happens when there's many chars in the line of sight. Then a skilled thief would need to check which character has least spectators but most other characters around it to disrupt the spectator's alertness. You couldn't just steal from anyone any time which should be pretty obvious, thats why you'd have to keep constant watch who would be the most optimal target.
That's nerving a skill to a level it's unworkable.
That can be worked too. I have no idea why we can see so far to our sides and behind. Because we hear? Well we shouldn't be able to hear what someone looks like or what his name is. Otherwise should hear behind walls aswell. Less visibility to the flanks and rear would actually be much more interesting in pvp too.
It would be totally okay to not to see a sneaking dude behind me at all.
If the crowded field of view system was also added, players would have to think about where to position their chars. Some areas could be safer (shops and quest zones) but they could become crowded and thus unsafe.
So if you want 100% succesful steal, it'd be a guy who has his back turned against you and has no eyes laid upon him.
It's probably due to the isometric view.
It would indeed be interesting if your character has a lesser sight from the sides and none from the back.
Although that should be compensated a bit by hearing and smell, so an x amount of hexes or something like that.
Nicer would be just a message you heared something behind you.
In this game every area is unsafe.
Steal skill is already designed in such a way you don't have 100% success rate and it shouldn't be changed to it.
Indeed. If additional chars reduced the spectator's alertness, it would be encouraged to have a pickpocket-posse who surrounds the victim and one performs the stealing act.
We already had similar things with groups of thieves blocking shop exits.
It's not something you want and it's just as lame as shoot and loot teams.
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They already have a 100% chance not to be stolen from if they're alert.
I meant catching, not preventing getting stolen from. Right now there's no way to catch a thief and make him pay for his crime attempts. Surely he might randomly fail but that's not up to the victim.
That's nerving a skill to a level it's unworkable.
Not if done well. It takes some modifications to line of sight so that it's not a quadrangle where the char is placed near one corner but a slice of sector laid in front of him. That would make figuring out lines of sight easier because no matter the perception, nobody would actually see further to his side and rear. It'd be like a puzzle to figure out which char has least eyes on him but most distraction around. You want to beat players? Then you need to outsmart them. Find the victim who has positioned himself badly. Smart players wouldn't usually be possible to be stolen from, that's okay.
Steal skill is already designed in such a way you don't have 100% success rate and it shouldn't be changed to it.
You know what's very bad feature in games? When you plan things precisely perfectly but it fails because there's 0,01% chance to fail due to the fact the game is based on dice rolls. I see no reason why you couldn't work youself 100% success rate if you did everything right and your victim didn't do anything to counter you. Your victim doesn't deserve even that 0,01% chance if he didn't work for it. Only npcs deserve a small defensive success chance because they are slaves to their script.
We already had similar things with groups of thieves blocking shop exits.
It's not something you want and it's just as lame as shoot and loot teams.
That's how thieves work in reality, and in fonline it'd be called teamwork which deserves some credit. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it because it's activity faithful to the game world unlike shoot'n'loot or blocking doorways. So if something like that is implemented, counter measures usable by victims must follow ofcourse. It's not i'd like some undefeatble pickpocket mob to roam every town.
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Stay away from NCR and you avoid at least 80% of all thieves.
This made me to create a forum account.
You sir suggest to avoid players to play a MMO game?
I've got feeling that this is just broken and advocating it won't make this game any better.
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I meant catching, not preventing getting stolen from. Right now there's no way to catch a thief and make him pay for his crime attempts. Surely he might randomly fail but that's not up to the victim.
I know what you meant, it's just makes no sense.
Or are you working for the local sherrif?
Not if done well. It takes some modifications to line of sight so that it's not a quadrangle where the char is placed near one corner but a slice of sector laid in front of him. That would make figuring out lines of sight easier because no matter the perception, nobody would actually see further to his side and rear. It'd be like a puzzle to figure out which char has least eyes on him but most distraction around. You want to beat players? Then you need to outsmart them. Find the victim who has positioned himself badly. Smart players wouldn't usually be possible to be stolen from, that's okay.
It doesn't change my point.
It makes stealing in areas like NCR bazar impossible.
You know what's very bad feature in games? When you plan things precisely perfectly but it fails because there's 0,01% chance to fail due to the fact the game is based on dice rolls. I see no reason why you couldn't work youself 100% success rate if you did everything right and your victim didn't do anything to counter you. Your victim doesn't deserve even that 0,01% chance if he didn't work for it. Only npcs deserve a small defensive success chance because they are slaves to their script.
Stop playing RPGs.
Removing dice rolls makes outcomes predictable and boring.
It's not just stealing, it's also crit chance, encounters, etc.
The victim can walk away, it's his counter measure.
That's how thieves work in reality, and in fonline it'd be called teamwork which deserves some credit. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it because it's activity faithful to the game world unlike shoot'n'loot or blocking doorways. So if something like that is implemented, counter measures usable by victims must follow ofcourse. It's not i'd like some undefeatble pickpocket mob to roam every town.
So you're saying locking people in locations is okay if you're stealing but not if you plan to loot and shoot?
Where's the logic in that? There's no difference, you lose your stuff.
Thieving teams work like this:
1 creates a diversion by talking to the victim or whatever.
The 2nd steals and passes the loot to the 3rd who walks away with it or even gives it to a 4th.
This made me to create a forum account.
You sir suggest to avoid players to play a MMO game?
I've got feeling that this is just broken and advocating it won't make this game any better.
I'm not suggesting you avoid players, I'm suggestion you avoid players in NCR.
NCR is filled with thieves, looters & shooters, tent followers, people try to con you, try to trick you in such a way it leads to your death, shoot you just for the fun of it, ...
The other option is not to complain about thieves if you choose to go to a location that's filled with them.
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I know what you meant, it's just makes no sense.
Or are you working for the local sherrif?
Dealing wasteland justice is everyman's right. In addition everyone should be allowed to protect their items with force and alertness. You can shoot a robber in the wasteland, how come you can't fight against a thief if the losses are the same: material. I've tried to explain that player's only chance to avoid robberty is running makes stealing very annoying feature. That's what this discussion is mainly about. If players received a way to use their alertness to spot thieves and shoot them, thieves would also deserve a way to skillfully avoid being spotted.
It makes stealing in areas like NCR bazar impossible.
Only less obvious. What's wrong with not being able to harass everyone everwhere and being forced to use finesse to achieve your goals?
Stop playing RPGs.
Removing dice rolls makes outcomes predictable and boring.
I'm not talking about removing but having occasions when dice roll is simply ignored because there are so many factors supporting success.
The victim can walk away, it's his counter measure.
No that's just avoiding, and some thieves might actually just want to harass people. Counter measure means hitting back and getting rid of the thief, not running away. Players have right to defend their personal space and property.
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By suggesting me to move away from NCR you're basicly suggesting me to play solo - there's simply not enough people in other cities in my playtime.
In fact if one town is filled with filth and thieves just because of it's population you might be safe to assume that game is designed for that high crime rate.
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Dealing wasteland justice is everyman's right. In addition everyone should be allowed to protect their items with force and alertness. You can shoot a robber in the wasteland, how come you can't fight against a thief if the losses are the same: material. I've tried to explain that player's only chance to avoid robberty is running makes stealing very annoying feature. That's what this discussion is mainly about. If players received a way to use their alertness to spot thieves and shoot them, thieves would also deserve a way to skillfully avoid being spotted.
Protecting your items by avoiding problems is a better solution, especially in the wasteland. Who knows who the thief's friends are and what they can do.
In the wasteland you might be able to walk away from a robber too.
The whole discussion is about people harassing others at traders by using or pretending to use the thief skill.
Sometimes it's the thief skill, sometimes it's pure harassment.
Only less obvious. What's wrong with not being able to harass everyone everwhere and being forced to use finesse to achieve your goals?
What's wrong with fixing the things that cause the harassment in the first place instead of "fixing" a problem by nerving a skill useless?
Main problems are the steal animation being equal to other animations and traders only being able to speak to 1 person at a time. That means more people around the trader, meaning more thieves and more impatient people scaring off others by pretending to steal.
I'm not talking about removing but having occasions when dice roll is simply ignored because there are so many factors supporting success.
Removing it or ignoring it, the result is the same.
No that's just avoiding, and some thieves might actually just want to harass people. Counter measure means hitting back and getting rid of the thief, not running away. Players have right to defend their personal space and property.
The people harassing others and following them around aren't thieves, they're just a bunch of low life grievers. No matter what you'll do, you'll have them around. Remove the steal skill and they'll start bursting people.
Preventing is better than being a victim. Players playing a "good guy" have to accept the fact they're a bit limited in guarded areas as everyone is protected by default and guns are not always allowed.
It's so damn easy to prevent being stolen from. Simply walk away. How hard can it be?
By suggesting me to move away from NCR you're basicly suggesting me to play solo - there's simply not enough people in other cities in my playtime.
In fact if one town is filled with filth and thieves just because of it's population you might be safe to assume that game is designed for that high crime rate.
I have no idea where you're from and when you're on.
If you're going to a town filled with scum and you know that, don't complain about things like stealing. Accept it happens and be careful. High crime rates are part of NCR.
Pre-wipe I was in NCR a lot. This time I'm not. I have met a lot more interesting and nice people this time around.
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Protecting your items by avoiding problems is a better solution, especially in the wasteland. Who knows who the thief's friends are and what they can do.
In the wasteland you might be able to walk away from a robber too.
Okay let's say everyone is so smart that they just avoid all thieves and never come to safe towns, actually they are so careful that they don't even leave their tents. Are you happy now that you don't have any targets to pickpocket?
Encouraging excessive avoidance of dangers leads to bad gameplay. Players must set to compete against each other, that's exciting.
The whole discussion is about people harassing others at traders by using or pretending to use the thief skill.
Sometimes it's the thief skill, sometimes it's pure harassment.
But it was already agreed that even if the animation was changed, griefers would still use the skill but not take anything. And why does this harassment annoy people? Because they have to run.
It's so damn easy to prevent being stolen from. Simply walk away. How hard can it be?
Players playing a "good guy" have to accept the fact they're a bit limited in guarded areas as everyone is protected by default and guns are not always allowed.
This is something I just disagree. The reason why is that when someone tries to steal, it's basically an invasion to another player's personal space and inventory. In other words a pvp challenge or "you're messing with me" situation. In pvp situations players have to be able to defeat or to be defeated. Victory must be declared by who played most skillfully. The whole scenario lacks the possibility for the thief and his victim to increase their winning chances with skill. This doesn't apply because the chance to get caught is independent on player's actions. Another reason is that thieves cannot be defeated, they can be only avoided which is a draw. The thief can win but the victim cannot. Doesn't sound very fair. How would it feel if in pvp you could only run from your enemy?
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Okay let's say everyone is so smart that they just avoid all thieves and never come to safe towns, actually they are so careful that they don't even leave their tents. Are you happy now that you don't have any targets to pickpocket?
Encouraging excessive avoidance of dangers leads to bad gameplay. Players must set to compete against each other, that's exciting.
I never said anything about avoiding safe towns, nor did and do I agree to the person who did in this thread or another one about stealing.
Even if everyone stayed in their tents, thieves could steal from npc.
There are plenty of ways to avoid dangers, staying out of NCR bazar at peak hours is 1 of them.
A lot of players avoid excessive dangers like towns controlled by certain gangs, going into certain areas, etc. as they know they'll get raped by other players. Most likely a small group and possibly with mercs. Apparently you're one of the people PKing this way, probably trash talking over the corpse to show you're "hardcore". Most of us don't find that exciting at all.
But it was already agreed that even if the animation was changed, griefers would still use the skill but not take anything. And why does this harassment annoy people? Because they have to run.
Why should people who use this skill to actually steal suffer because others abuse it?
It's so damn easy to prevent being stolen from. Simply walk away. How hard can it be?
Quoted something wrong here?
This is something I just disagree. The reason why is that when someone tries to steal, it's basically an invasion to another player's personal space and inventory. In other words a pvp challenge or "you're messing with me" situation. In pvp situations players have to be able to defeat or to be defeated. Victory must be declared by who played most skillfully. The whole scenario lacks the possibility for the thief and his victim to increase their winning chances with skill. This doesn't apply because the chance to get caught is independent on player's actions. Another reason is that thieves cannot be defeated, they can be only avoided which is a draw. The thief can win but the victim cannot. Doesn't sound very fair. How would it feel if in pvp you could only run from your enemy?
The only challenge there is is for a thief to steal and a none thief to not be stolen from. The way people are voluntarily packed upon eachother at traders and the NCR bazar makes the whole personal space and inventory thing a none issue. There is no challenge, nor a defeat or be defeated issue. Which makes sense as stealing is not a combat skill. As said before, the victim wins by avoiding the steal.
Like a lot of players, I have alts which can't do anything but run in pvp as they're simply not capable to put on much of a fight in pvp. My thief alt is one of them, but my armorer and doctor are too.
Fair? No.
Would I want it to be different? No.
It's a choice in character creation and playing style. Thieves are 1 of many builds and playing styles.
Take your hatred towards grievers out on them and not on actual thieves. Thieves can't help it some impatient piece of (brahmin) shit uses steal to scare you away from a trader. Thieves can't help it that the person you PK uses the steal skill to harass you as a way to take revenge, thieves can't help it ...
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I never said anything about avoiding safe towns
Really?
There are plenty of ways to avoid dangers, staying out of NCR bazar at peak hours is 1 of them.
Why should people who use this skill to actually steal suffer because others abuse it?
People run away from thieves and abusers alike.
The abuse is only possible because how steal works: someone comes near you and rolls a dice. People are afraid of this dice because they can't fight it.
The only challenge there is is for a thief to steal and a none thief to not be stolen from. The way people are voluntarily packed upon eachother at traders and the NCR bazar makes the whole personal space and inventory thing a none issue.
The personal space is not an issue, but the moment when someone browses my inventory. Anyone can stand next to me if there is assurement he isn't up to something.
There is no challenge, nor a defeat or be defeated issue. Which makes sense as stealing is not a combat skill. As said before, the victim wins by avoiding the steal.
There is always challenge when there's one player who wants something and another who wants the opposite. When there's challenge there is victory and defeat. The settings might be biased towards either side, which in this case is the thieve's side. How can you say it's victory for the victim if he only gets to keep his items? Victory means that winner gets something from the loser, or the loser is put in more miserable state than the winner or the winner gets something and loser gets nothing. The first alternative applies when thief wins: he gets an item from the victim. Decent prize for success. When the victim escapes, he doesn't get anything, neither does the thief lose anything so it's not a victory for the victim. Especially because the thief can just run after the victim forever.
Besides, didn't you mention yourself that you use steal against rednicks and your enemies? So it is a tool that you use to cause troubble to your foes. Sounds like pvp to me. I mentioned that being only able to run away from your foes would be pretty annoying so isn't this happening with thieves right now? They can't fight you but you can "fight" them by taking their stuff.
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Really?
Really.
People run away from thieves and abusers alike.
The abuse is only possible because how steal works: someone comes near you and rolls a dice. People are afraid of this dice because they can't fight it.
People run away because they don't know who's the thief and who's the abuser.
If I know someone is using it to harass me, I won't walk away.
With low skill they won't try because they know they'll get shot.
The personal space is not an issue, but the moment when someone browses my inventory. Anyone can stand next to me if there is assurement he isn't up to something.
And how do you assure that?
It might not be a thief, it could be part of a shoot & loot team.
There is always challenge when there's one player who wants something and another who wants the opposite. When there's challenge there is victory and defeat. The settings might be biased towards either side, which in this case is the thieve's side. How can you say it's victory for the victim if he only gets to keep his items? Victory means that winner gets something from the loser, or the loser is put in more miserable state than the winner or the winner gets something and loser gets nothing. The first alternative applies when thief wins: he gets an item from the victim. Decent prize for success. When the victim escapes, he doesn't get anything, neither does the thief lose anything so it's not a victory for the victim. Especially because the thief can just run after the victim forever.
Besides, didn't you mention yourself that you use steal against rednicks and your enemies? So it is a tool that you use to cause troubble to your foes. Sounds like pvp to me. I mentioned that being only able to run away from your foes would be pretty annoying so isn't this happening with thieves right now? They can't fight you but you can "fight" them by taking their stuff.
Victory means someone wins, someone loses. That's not about items nor about killing someone.
What the thief loses is time (cooldown) and people know he's a (possible) thief.
This is still about grievers, not about thieves. Again, thieves can't help it people abuse the animation.
I don't use steal against rednecks or enemies, I use it on them.
I choose to steal from people I tagged red for PK, stealing, exploiting, tent following, abuse of the steal skill, misbehaving, abusing shout, ...
It's not to trouble my foes as I use the skill, not abuse it.
It's simple, I get to choose between a red name or a grey name at a trader. The choice is easy. I leave the grey name alone and try to steal from the red name.
Sometimes I'm successful and sometimes my victim runs away.
People run away from thieves. That's how it is. If thieves follow them, they're either stupid or not thieves but people who abuse the steal skill.
I don't get why you think all "problems" should be dealt with by fighting. Walk away a few times and the "thief" gets bored.
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With low skill they won't try because they know they'll get shot.
But then the abusers would just peek in your inventory without taking anything. This would have the same effect as current abuse.
And how do you assure that?
By having a method to keep an eye on someone and certainly catch him if he tries to steal. How would that differ from running anyway? You can't steal from someone if keeps an eye on you in both cases. The only real difference would be that your char gets caught and unprotected which is only fair.
It might not be a thief, it could be part of a shoot & loot team.
That's another problem entirely.
Victory means someone wins, someone loses. That's not about items nor about killing someone.
What the thief loses is time (cooldown) and people know he's a (possible) thief.
How can you say it's not about items if you are after items while stealing? You want the item, the victim wants to keep it.
The victim loses time also, maybe he was going to finish a deal with npc or player but he had to run away.
Still the victim has to be on his toes all the time, he gets no peace even if he knows who thief is.
In addition the victory conditions aren't fair. The victim cannot put preissure on the thief the same way the thief can do to the victim. Thief can be after you forever but you can't be after him.
I don't use steal against rednecks or enemies, I use it on them.
How's that any differend? You cause them troubble, that's all what counts.
It's not to trouble my foes as I use the skill, not abuse it.
Losing items counts as troubble.
I leave the grey name alone and try to steal from the red name.
It doesn't matter what you do in the end, because there are other thieves with differend motives. By pointing out that you steal from your enemies I tried to explain that stealing is like pvp. You use it to cause troubble to your enemies so it's pvp. And because it is pvp, same rules must apply to it aswell. If you can cause them troubble, they must be allowed to cause troubble to you in the same scenario at the same volume.
People run away from thieves. That's how it is.
It's not up to you to state how things are.
I don't get why you think all "problems" should be dealt with by fighting.
Fighting or competition. That's usually how games solve things to keep everyone happy.
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But then the abusers would just peek in your inventory without taking anything. This would have the same effect as current abuse.
Pretending to use steal is exactly what the problem is.
Besides, they might be using the repair skill simply to scare you away from the trader.
Note that shoot & loot teams do use steal skill to check inventories.
By having a method to keep an eye on someone and certainly catch him if he tries to steal. How would that differ from running anyway? You can't steal from someone if keeps an eye on you in both cases. The only real difference would be that your char gets caught and unprotected which is only fair.
Nerving a skill to a state which makes it unusable is unfair.
There are too many people in the interesting areas to make it possible to steal.
That's another problem entirely.
Are you sure? A good shoot & loot team uses the steal skill to check inventories.
How can you say it's not about items if you are after items while stealing? You want the item, the victim wants to keep it.
The victim loses time also, maybe he was going to finish a deal with npc or player but he had to run away.
Still the victim has to be on his toes all the time, he gets no peace even if he knows who thief is.
In addition the victory conditions aren't fair. The victim cannot put preissure on the thief the same way the thief can do to the victim. Thief can be after you forever but you can't be after him.
I said winning or losing is not about items or killing.
With a failed steal attempt the thief also loses time.
Once again, you can't stop people from grieving or abusing a skill. Why nerve a skill when people who don't put points in it choose to abuse it?
How's that any differend? You cause them troubble, that's all what counts.
Losing items counts as troubble.
It doesn't matter what you do in the end, because there are other thieves with differend motives. By pointing out that you steal from your enemies I tried to explain that stealing is like pvp. You use it to cause troubble to your enemies so it's pvp. And because it is pvp, same rules must apply to it aswell. If you can cause them troubble, they must be allowed to cause troubble to you in the same scenario at the same volume.
Using a skill like steal against someone is grieving to me.
Using it on someone to do with that skill what it's supposed to be used for is fine.
If the victim walks away, he's aware of me. No need to try again.
It's not harassment, grieving or whatever. It's making proper use of a skill.
Stealing is not pvp, that you perceive it that way is up to you.
It's not up to you to state how things are.
I stated a fact. People paying attention walk away.
Fighting or competition. That's usually how games solve things to keep everyone happy.
It's not an MMOFPS, it's an MMORPG.
There's more than 1 way to solve a problem.
You can finish both FO1 an FO2 without killing anyone.
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Nerving a skill to a state which makes it unusable is unfair.
There are too many people in the interesting areas to make it possible to steal.
It depends on how the system turns out. I don't really care what are the specifics of such system where players could catch thieves with their ingame actions. All that matters is that they can do it if they play well. I call it fair if both sides (thief & victim) can affect their chances with their actions.
Are you sure? A good shoot & loot team uses the steal skill to check inventories.
Doesn't matter what they do. Shoot'n'loot is just exploit.
I said winning or losing is not about items or killing.
In fonline it is. Killing someone you want dead when they don't want to die or taking someone's items when they don't want to lose them is regarded as victory for you and defeat to the target.
With a failed steal attempt the thief also loses time.
Failed steal attempt has nothing to do with neither player's actions. It's just a random occurance. The victim didn't cause the fail so it cannot be regarded as victory to him. It's just an accident for the thief. If the victim could somehow intentionally cause the thief to be caught, it could be called a victory for him.
Once again, you can't stop people from grieving or abusing a skill. Why nerve a skill when people who don't put points in it choose to abuse it?
Sure you can stop them from abusing. If there was a method to catch a thief with clever gameplay, fake steal abusers couldn't do anything to a smart player. If they used fake steal, they'd get nothing and the victim could just relax knowing they're just abusing because they didn't get caught. If they were trying to just peek in his inventory, they'd be caught and shot.
Stealing is not pvp, that you perceive it that way is up to you.
Then what it is? Players aren't cabinets you take items from for free. There are living guys behind every char with their own plans. If you step in and mess with their plans by taking items from them, you're messing with players. When you're messing with players and doing things to them they don't want and they are trying to prevent you it is pvp. They are struggling not to get stolen from and you are struggling to steal from them. Effort against effort.
In combat pvp there are 2 players trying to kill each other. Same thing: effort vs effort. Every time when there's a situation where 2 players have crossed desires and they compete against each other to achieve their goals it's pvp. It doesn't matter what the scenario is as long as there's crossed desires, a way to gain upper hand and enforce your opponent.
There's even pvp in shopping: who gets the freshly spawned caps and items.
I stated a fact. People paying attention walk away.
That's just how it is now. We're discussing if it's okay and what could be instead of it. Stating obviousnesses doesn't get us anywhere.
It's not an MMOFPS, it's an MMORPG.
There's more than 1 way to solve a problem.
You can finish both FO1 an FO2 without killing anyone.
The point was that mmo games have to do with players competing against each other.
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Successfull steal attempt should be needed even for checking the inventory. They do not steal items, but they mess with you (stealing info about your inventory).
When someone is using a skill on you, the game should let you know in the chat/log. (Player XY used a First Aid on you. You gain 20HP.), (Player XY used a Science on you. That does nothing.) But successfull steal attempt, would cause no message to the victim.
(Different animations would be better, but i guess we will have to wait untill 3D.)
May be change the steal formula a bit so: Victim (PE+Steal) vs. Thief (Steal).
It seems more real and fair to me. Less abuse, thieves are fine.
And i think, that when a thiev fails to steal from the member of guards faction, he should be heavily punnished (unless the guard is bribed). Big reputation loss / death / jail.
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Thieves should not be allowed to steal from other players... I cant even log in because some idiot with a massive gun is taking what little I have. I've only started playing the game and have lost everything but my caps which are in the bank. Why should it be allowed to happen if you cant even store your gear in the bank?! Oh and it's not pvp at all if you cant defend yourself in a heavily guarded town. Its harassment...
Edit: It would be better and realistic if the npc guards see someone pickpocketing as an attack.
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Thieves should not be allowed to steal from other players... I cant even log in because some idiot with a massive gun is taking what little I have. I've only started playing the game and have lost everything but my caps which are in the bank. Why should it be allowed to happen if you cant even store your gear in the bank?! Oh and it's not pvp at all if you cant defend yourself in a heavily guarded town. Its harassment...
1. obtain 10 brahmin hides ( beg, buy, strike a deal with another player or plain just steal, its up to you)
2. construct tent
3. ??
4. Profit!
All part of the game, you can rage and keep going at it or rage quit. It helps that you lose stuff very early on if you are new since you should be expecting not to be able to get the stuff back. This way you can accept the loss of better stuff in the future.
I recall TLA had item storage some time back but i don't know if that's changed as i haven't been to that server in quite a long time. Only thing is you cant hang around in there for long (about 30s or so iirc) or you get killed by the guards and you lose your stuff.
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1. obtain 10 brahmin hides ( beg, buy, strike a deal with another player or plain just steal, its up to you)
2. construct tent
3. ??
4. Profit!
All part of the game, you can rage and keep going at it or rage quit. It helps that you lose stuff very early on if you are new since you should be expecting not to be able to get the stuff back. This way you can accept the loss of better stuff in the future.
I recall TLA had item storage some time back but i don't know if that's changed as i haven't been to that server in quite a long time. Only thing is you cant hang around in there for long (about 30s or so iirc) or you get killed by the guards and you lose your stuff.
I just read about the tents on the wiki. The idea of not having a safe storage place (like the bank) in town ruins the game for me. I love this game what I've seen so far and it feels to me like the proper fallout 3. I mean no offense to the developers, but both the tagging and pickpocketing system is ridiculous at the minute. As said before in this thread there should be a spot skill (perception should be the same thing) for some kind of defence. Police also shouldn't stand about watching people break their town laws. And players should not be allowed to tag without the other players consent.
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I love this game what I've seen so far and it feels to me like the proper fallout 3.
Set between fallout 1 & 2........ disregarding van buren..... ok i won't drag this on.
As said before in this thread there should be a spot skill (perception should be the same thing) for some kind of defence. Police also shouldn't stand about watching people break their town laws. And players should not be allowed to tag without the other players consent.
I wonder if guards can just shoot an offender to unconscious and anyone who tries to steal off said offender (recognised as another offender?) and just jail them. 5 ~ 10 minute timeout (higher timer? you decide) which must be completed to gain freedom or to fully log off and allow you to log into another char.
Repeat offenders either get a higher timeout or made to do work for the guarded town in a separate map (teleported there) where you gain no exp but have to collect resources or transport goods ( like the box quest but without the benefits so watch out small frame).
Possibility of being bailed with a speech check and/or gambling (bribery???) with increasing difficulty and price for repeat offenses. i suppose the solution is multi thief alts but that's if you are committed enough to level them all up.
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made to do work for the guarded town in a separate map (teleported there) where you gain no exp but have to collect resources or transport goods ( like the box quest but without the benefits so watch out small frame).
Hah this would be great.
But the problem is that players themselves can't affect the robbers chances of getting caught. So as long as the robber has not been noticed by guards, other players just have to run away from him. All kinds of passive SPECIAl related checks just encourage thieves to minmax. Thief can freely minmax his steal skills but ordinary town-goers can't afford that. That's why the way to catch thieves has to be up to players and their situational awerness.
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Hah this would be great.
But the problem is that players themselves can't affect the robbers chances of getting caught. So as long as the robber has not been noticed by guards, other players just have to run away from him. All kinds of passive SPECIAl related checks just encourage thieves to minmax. Thief can freely minmax his steal skills but ordinary town-goers can't afford that. That's why the way to catch thieves has to be up to players and their situational awerness.
Yeah i didn't have it fully thought through but just put it forth as another idea given a lot of players complaining about thieves and their lack of punishment when spotted by guards or otherwise.
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All of them approaches would make sense. If the towns look protect the people that are trading in them, they will gain more profit and don't have stand back and watch as a few thieves get rich without even trading at others expense. As far as I can tell, that guy that was stealing all my gear didnt care about the money and just wanted to cause grief. That's fair enough. if I was out in the wastes, I'd deserve it. But not in the middle of the Hub!
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Steal is most important skill in all rpg i think :D so i dunno wai most of people dont like thieves, i think every player steal smthn in fallout and in other games where thiefs possible :D
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In any rpgs I usually make thief character, so I believe stealing is a big part of a game. But it has to happen within reason. If you're in a large trading center and your buying something or putting money in the bank and theres multiple guards watching your every move. Then stealing should be close to impossible. Unless the guards / police have all been lobotomised that is. In a gameplay aspect, where is the thrill of being caught stealing if you know that you are untouchable because the guards have your back and the victim cant do a thing to you. Sure if your a hacker / cheater / griefer or you just like exploiting game engines you'll get a cheap thrill and a hard on possibly...
What about the vanilla fallout games. If you picked someones pocket in public or stole something from a bench in plain view and got caught you where gunned down (by everyone) on the spot! It's a vanilla game rule, why does it even need to suggested...
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In any rpgs I usually make thief character, so I believe stealing is a big part of a game. But it has to happen within reason. If you're in a large trading center and your buying something or putting money in the bank and theres multiple guards watching your every move. Then stealing should be close to impossible.
The guards are there to maintain general order, not babysit players. Surely certain areas could be very hard for pickpocketeers to operate due to guards (banks, shops) but they gotta make their living too. It must be up to players to watch their pockets and deal wasteland justice to harmdoers of their home town. When player steals from another player, it's a conflict between the two of them so they should solve it without massive npc intervention. Let the better player be rewarded.
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The guards are there to maintain general order, not babysit players. Surely certain areas could be very hard for pickpocketeers to operate due to guards (banks, shops) but they gotta make their living too. It must be up to players to watch their pockets and deal wasteland justice to harmdoers of their home town. When player steals from another player, it's a conflict between the two of them so they should solve it without massive npc intervention. Let the better player be rewarded.
The guards dont do anything to pickpocketers that are stealing from other players in banks and shops. Well not in the hub they don't. Even the bank tellers got a gun and he dosn't do anything. It's irritating as hell if you trying to quickly put caps in the bank and when you close the menu you realise someones just made off with your gun. How can you deal wasteland justice if you have fight the pickpocket and every guard thats seen you attacking them. For high level players its probably not a problem, if you can kill the pickpocket and every guard that comes near you.
I've resorted to carrying nothing but caps I've made from missions that I run to the bank with.
I'll say it again. if you where caught stealing by any npc in 1, 2, 3, tactics and probably NV (haven't played NV yet) you get shot.
Also what makes a thief the better player if they can do what they want and get away with? Theres no challenge in stealing from level 1 players, or anyone else that cant fight back because of the guards / police. As far as Ive seen in FOnline (and from reading the wiki / forums) is the better players are ones making an honest living.
Thats the last thing I'm saying on it.
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Here's some advice, put any caps you have into your hands (doesnt have to be active hand) and if you ever see another player get close run. This is an mmorpg based on social phobia. It may be ironic but for the most part it's true.
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Heh... Thieves are easy to avoid. When I started playing FOnline I got severe butthurt on this subject. Just take it easy - there are a lot more reasons to hate wasteland besides thieves (kill-and-loot scheme in protected towns, peace?-ok-dieBiatch incidents in wasteland, bazookaMerc-RTC-traps and many other funny things).
Btw try to play with the thief build. It's pretty hard to steal something from someone.
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How can you deal wasteland justice if you have fight the pickpocket and every guard thats seen you attacking them.
By implementing a feature that makes it possible for players to shoot a person they recognize as thief.
Here's some advice, put any caps you have into your hands (doesnt have to be active hand) and if you ever see another player get close run. This is an mmorpg based on social phobia. It may be ironic but for the most part it's true.
I've got even better advice: don't go to cities. Yeh that's right, just sit in your own private cave and never show your face.
Are you sure the game was designed to be social phobia mmorpg or did the gameplay just accidentally end that way?
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No thanks, I like being a thief
Let's say you have FA, you have an advantage over somebody who has Steal instead
while I can steal players and NPCs, you can heal during fights
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The one thing that gets on my nerves IS Idiots walking around (..) and tagging you
1. Leave the town.
2. Stop somewhere on the wastelands.
3. Kill kill kill kill!
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1. Leave the town.
2. Stop somewhere on the wastelands.
3. Kill kill kill kill!
A: Thats if you're smart enough to close the chat box when starting a fight. so you can tap a hot key and click on him to kill him with a burst.
B: Thats if you can load fast enough. i've been half way to the exit grid before some of my friends have loaded. and watched them get bursted by marauders when we're trying to get back to the base.
-Ulrek-
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1. Leave the town.
2. Stop somewhere on the wastelands.
3. Kill kill kill kill!
Pretty sure you can boot somebody that has you tagged while on WM, that or just go in circles on the town square or take i nice trip far away if you have high enough outdoorsman.