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PVP Revolution

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Cha:
I give up with you kttdestroyer since you know more about pvp thant pvpers gang...

Crazy:

--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---Relax people, lets discuss rather then rage please. And excuse my sarcasm, but i just cant write in other way.

I do not see very much tactics here, most of the things you mentioned are either game knowlage (Range, which build is good against what, who to target meaning who is most dangerous against us) or communication issues (where to stand so you can shoot the enemy before he shots you, here comes fast clicking as a factor aswell). And we have logistics aswell, which is working quite well, although not really complicated.
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--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---So, lets break this up in smaller parts.
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--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---Managing groups and mixing builds, yes, some small tactical elements but currently and unfortunattly not a key element for who wins, no matter how you mix it, its more about not doing some fatal mistakes rather then gain advantage.
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Very important, have a group of small range and long range, you have to manage them well to be effective. Big Gun in house: good. Big gun rushing snipers on open space: bad. (stupid example, but it's how it's work). If your ennemy is full sniper in open space, don't bring your big guns...


--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---Scouting, yes, one needs to know if one can win or not, how big are enemy numbers and where they are/what they have, this not key element though (or it is, in a way of, if you got more people on WM then you can assume your victory/loose, which is kind of simple, and no more tactical then 7>5), becouse its mostly gives back a question: Attack, or not attack and from where?
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Scouting is one of the most important thing! You know exactly where you ennemy are, that mean you exactly know where you can spawn safely, where you have to go and not go, when they are rushing your back, when there is another force which spawn...


--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---Next, hex precise placement and range usage, yes, to be able to shoot first becouse you will see enemy before he sees you (and so, you have a lot easier to click first (damn again fast clicking)), not very complicated unless someone linkes to stand 1 hex from door with a rocket luncher, then it might be complicated for that one.
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It's also having your best range, be sure be able to retreat/flank, see that your friends cannot be hit with you, that you big guns won't make friendly fire, and be able to take damage instead of snipers...


--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---Logistics "Well, someone forgot his armor again?", or "Damn i forgot ammo...". Well, sarcastic, becouse i dont see this as problematic thing to do, i understand you mean to prepare for several attacks and having stuff placed close by to quickly go back to battle in case of need after death/ammo refill situation. Thats pretty simple, isint it? Its like bringing toilet paper to the toilet before... Well, you know what i mean.
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Not so easy. Evryone can be surprised by the number of militia you shot, and you miss some ammo. One of your player died by some small attacks, and he have to get back ASAP to be ready for big fight.



--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---Timings of attack, Yes, this could be a tactical element, too bad the battles seldom go on very long time to be able to use this in bigger extansion. To make this work currently it must be used in very small time frame to gain success. Attacking one from behind and front (surrounding enemy) might enable the attackers from behind to get their first shot in, but thats all in terms of advantage.
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No, timing is very important, like it allow to everyone to spend their AP on the same time, and make bigger damage to ennemy. if one group attack first, ennemies regenrate Ap (or even heal with enough time) and it really less effective. Yeah, the window for good timing is small, but important, and still takable.




--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---Hiding forces, why would anyone want to do that? Exept when in defense when you want to cheat enemy by showing them only small amount of your force (so the enemy thinks they can manage them). Thats the only situation i can think of. And currently, this brings it down to amount of numbers vs amount of numbers unfortunatly.
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Usefull for sudden attack of big guns on sniper from short range foe. Can be deadly.



--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---My conclusion:
I see none of those as key elements in combat, exept for the obvious. Most of those things are based again, on Fast clicking, Luck, and/or Builds. And communication which is teamwork.
You take good position and manage range/timing to gain the first click (first shot).
You scout, manage groups and micromanage logistics to manage the amounts of power builds (x vs y, Yes or no) (builds becouse non-power builds are not taken into account).
You hope to get lucky shots in the end, which might turn the tides of the battle.
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I don't agree, for all point above.


--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---In my opinion, none of the things you mentioned are key element to final victory unless opposite side completly lacks those.
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I can say you it is, I already win/loose many fights because of tactic, even with unbalanced forces.



--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on October 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM ---Been there, done that.
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If you say so. Don't mean you know all of it (tough I don't think it's my case either)

kttdestroyer:

--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 05:13:21 PM ---Very important, have a group of small range and long range, you have to manage them well to be effective. Big Gun in house: good. Big gun rushing snipers on open space: bad. (stupid example, but it's how it's work). If your ennemy is full sniper in open space, don't bring your big guns...

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Yes, but arent those obvious things? Do one have to really sweat his braincells to know that running with a P90 in open against sniper is not good idea? Like you said, its simple.

--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 05:13:21 PM ---Scouting is one of the most important thing! You know exactly where you ennemy are, that mean you exactly know where you can spawn safely, where you have to go and not go, when they are rushing your back, when there is another force which spawn...

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Yes, that is also obvious, it is just a thing you do before you enter. There is no other way. But is this key to victory? i mean does this decides final outcome of the battle? Or is it just standard procedure, that everybody does, to not make a fatal mistake.

--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 05:13:21 PM ---It's also having your best range, be sure be able to retreat/flank, see that your friends cannot be hit with you, that you big guns won't make friendly fire, and be able to take damage instead of snipers...

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Yes, dont kill eachother, hit-and-run, and snipers have low hp so, keep distance. Thats about it. That i believe is about not doing stupid mistakes, rather then masterminding a victory. Meaning, its something to do if you simply think rationally, its not dramatic advantage other then avoiding dramatic failure.

--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 05:13:21 PM ---Not so easy. Evryone can be surprised by the number of militia you shot, and you miss some ammo. One of your player died by some small attacks, and he have to get back ASAP to be ready for big fight.

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Yes, but i dont agree that it is not easy, just put some stuff in common tent near town, how is it complicated? It costs 10 hides.

--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 05:13:21 PM ---No, timing is very important, like it allow to everyone to spend their AP on the same time, and make bigger damage to ennemy. if one group attack first, ennemies regenrate Ap (or even heal with enough time) and it really less effective. Yeah, the window for good timing is small, but important, and still takable.

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Yes, but imagine if it were even more important. Wouldint the battle be a lot more tactical if this and some other of your/Cha's exemples were enchanced? Right now, every participat of the battle (if not lost somewhere) will still unleash his full ap in those 0.3 seconds. So the advantage gained by surrounding the enemy is limited by this.


--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 05:13:21 PM ---Usefull for sudden attack of big guns on sniper from short range foe. Can be deadly.

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But never is, becouse why should it? unless some solo snipers stand on spawn without any bg or rocket support. You would gain advantage of first shot, that is true.


--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 05:13:21 PM ---I don't agree, for all point above.
I can say you it is, I already win/loose many fights because of tactic, even with unbalanced forces.

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Well, most of those you mentioned no matter how you do them, dont have decisive role in a victory or loose (if you dont just skip them, which is hard becouse most of them just come naturally to mind even with medium game knowlage).

If you have 5 players like i said before, waiting on WM and in town you have 10 enemies waiting. All armed to teeth and power builds (220-250 hp). What does any of those things help you? rather then enemies complete lack of those? No matter where you attack from and how, you will still be needing luck to get the lucky shots, you will still need to click fast or do everything you can (choose where to stand) to shot/click first, and you will still need to have top gear/top build in this confrontation.



--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 05:13:21 PM ---If you say so. Don't mean you know all of it (tough I don't think it's my case either)

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The thing is, i do not believe there is much to know, once you know the engine, everything else is quite obvious, dont shot your team mates, dont try to point blank with a sniper against a minigunner, dont enter spawn with enemies on it, bring some stuff with you to battle... Its like i said, putting toilet paper in the toilet.

However, i do agree that some of those you/Cha mentioned are tactical issues, what i am saying is, that they are very limited in useage becouse of current engine. The Engine only allows a bit of them in other words. Personally, i would really like them to become major points in a pvp confrontation, i believe this would allow for more player and factions to take part in battles aswell. This would reduce importance of amount of players and would focus more on what each player is doing and how, a lot more then current combat system allows to.

avv:

--- Quote from: Solar on October 15, 2010, 05:02:51 PM ---How you build your character should affect how successful it is. There is 0.000001% chance of that fact changing.
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Good to know. But how are you going to balance crafting and fighting being fitted in one char? The skill caps are very high allowing chars become very good at something specific, like stealth or sniping so 180 or even 40 points invested elsewhere than combat skill always means that the crafter-fighter is weaker and therefore encourages alting

Solar:
Well, its not been finalised. I know what I'd like it to be, but there are stages between what I'd like and what gets onto the server ;)

But it would mean you could be a crafter/other things without impacting on your fighting ability at all.

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