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PVP Revolution

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avv:

--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 11:51:37 AM ---Hey man, it's a RPG! Obviously your char do something instead of you: he have skills, it's not you who aim the eyes, it's him, you just tell him to aim it.
--- End quote ---

It's rpg but it doesn't mean anything else except that we play a role in a certain world. We can play that role no matter how the combat works. But for the sake of combat it would be more reasonable that we players were in control of our combat success, instead of our chars doing it for us. This is because when it comes to pvp it's a matter of competition of playerl skills, not the skills of each other's chars.

If aiming is done by our chars then why isn't everything else aswell since it's an rpg? We already have to posess some reflexes in real time, why can't these reflexes come out of our chars since it's an rpg? Since it's an rpg shouldn't a good barter char be able to basically rob items from other players since his char is so good at convincing them to agree to his deals that they can't resist? Shouldn't a skilled female speech char be able to seduce all male chars to lay down their arms for her? Should be pretty easy since most combat builds got so low cha and speech.


--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 11:51:37 AM ---Also, you have to see that fight isn't the the only thing in this game, it's far more vast. You have to make choices: be better at fight, or be able to travel faster? Be able to hide yourself, or to heal? Or maybe just to maintain your gear?
In most MMORPG, all your choices are combat based, as you don't need anything to craft/travel. Here it's different.
--- End quote ---

But you don't kill other players with fast travel, heal or crafting. That's the entire point. Only combat skills have the power to influence other players and other skills are even away from your combat permormance without paying off in sufficient way.
Besides because of alts players don't even need to make any choices since they already have every character in their disposal or at least have access to them.

kttdestroyer:
Relax people, lets discuss rather then rage please. And excuse my sarcasm, but i just cant write in other way.


--- Quote from: Cha on October 15, 2010, 12:50:11 PM ---For info : in gang fights, a part from fast clik, you have to manage one/various groups, micromanage same/mix builds , settle postion wisely (we are talking about one hex of precision), aim the correct target regard situation, use max range of weappons/sight range, perfect timings, wisely split groups, scoot properly, manage logisctical issues for getting fast operational, surprise ennemy with new strats, hide/dont some forces, etc..,etc.. tactics/situations are almost infinite
You may say thats not hard or thats not relevent and again its just that you have no clue of what there is going on in gang wars...

--- End quote ---

I do not see very much tactics here, most of the things you mentioned are either game knowlage (Range, which build is good against what, who to target meaning who is most dangerous against us) or communication issues (where to stand so you can shoot the enemy before he shots you, here comes fast clicking as a factor aswell). And we have logistics aswell, which is working quite well, although not really complicated.

So, lets break this up in smaller parts.

Managing groups and mixing builds, yes, some small tactical elements but currently and unfortunattly not a key element for who wins, no matter how you mix it, its more about not doing some fatal mistakes rather then gain advantage.

Scouting, yes, one needs to know if one can win or not, how big are enemy numbers and where they are/what they have, this not key element though (or it is, in a way of, if you got more people on WM then you can assume your victory/loose, which is kind of simple, and no more tactical then 7>5), becouse its mostly gives back a question: Attack, or not attack and from where?

Next, hex precise placement and range usage, yes, to be able to shoot first becouse you will see enemy before he sees you (and so, you have a lot easier to click first (damn again fast clicking)), not very complicated unless someone linkes to stand 1 hex from door with a rocket luncher, then it might be complicated for that one.

Logistics "Well, someone forgot his armor again?", or "Damn i forgot ammo...". Well, sarcastic, becouse i dont see this as problematic thing to do, i understand you mean to prepare for several attacks and having stuff placed close by to quickly go back to battle in case of need after death/ammo refill situation. Thats pretty simple, isint it? Its like bringing toilet paper to the toilet before... Well, you know what i mean.

Timings of attack, Yes, this could be a tactical element, too bad the battles seldom go on very long time to be able to use this in bigger extansion. To make this work currently it must be used in very small time frame to gain success. Attacking one from behind and front (surrounding enemy) might enable the attackers from behind to get their first shot in, but thats all in terms of advantage.

Hiding forces, why would anyone want to do that? Exept when in defense when you want to cheat enemy by showing them only small amount of your force (so the enemy thinks they can manage them). Thats the only situation i can think of. And currently, this brings it down to amount of numbers vs amount of numbers unfortunatly.


My conclusion:
I see none of those as key elements in combat, exept for the obvious. Most of those things are based again, on Fast clicking, Luck, and/or Builds. And communication which is teamwork.
You take good position and manage range/timing to gain the first click (first shot).
You scout, manage groups and micromanage logistics to manage the amounts of power builds (x vs y, Yes or no) (builds becouse non-power builds are not taken into account).
You hope to get lucky shots in the end, which might turn the tides of the battle.

In my opinion, none of the things you mentioned are key element to final victory unless opposite side completly lacks those. Some of those things you mentioned would be tactical elements, but are nerfed to most simple form by allowing every weapon to be fired instantly. Now, imagine if firing time was in place (what the thread is about), and how it would affect those elements, turning them into key elements, replacing the fast clicking, builds to some extand and even luck could be overpoweredto some point by enchanced tactical elements.



--- Quote from: Cha on October 15, 2010, 12:50:11 PM ---I bet my car you are not in any "big" gang so i understand you have no clue what im talking about... anywawy you should trust gang players when they say what they know... instead of some ironical/smart/sarcasm sentences.
--- End quote ---

Been there, done that.

Crazy:
Well, I am very often in big PvP gang fight. And I can say you, skill and tactics matter far much than you seem to think. Maybe your team/alliance/ennemies haven't used any tactic, this time or all the time. But it can truely decide who win.

kttdestroyer:

--- Quote from: Cha on October 15, 2010, 05:11:38 PM ---I give up with you kttdestroyer since you know more about pvp thant pvpers gang...

--- End quote ---
Yes, i have been in a pvp gang like i said (participated in some biggest battles on the server), so, we should know the same much i assume. My intentions were not to harm your feelings but examine the "tactical" situations and how to extand their power in pvp battles. So, instead of going frustrated, please respond, i will gladly hear your opinion on how to make it happend.


--- Quote from: Crazy on October 15, 2010, 04:51:48 PM ---Well, I am very often in big PvP gang fight. And I can say you, skill and tactics matter far much than you seem to think. Maybe your team/alliance/ennemies haven't used any tactic, this time or all the time. But it can truely decide who win.

--- End quote ---

Yes, and we used god will. It compares to your unexplained word "Tactics" and is of same size. Tell me the tactical elements and we can discuss, otherwise you are just writing magic words and we are far from the land of OZ. ;)

To help you get going: Tell me, how you kill 10 power builds (220-250 hp with CA, 3 snipers, 4 rocket lunchers, 3 minigunners) with your 5 power builds (220-250 hp with CA, you choose what kind) with usage of tactics?

The Scenario looks like this, your 5 are on wm. The 10 enemy in numbers are in Klamath trapper area waiting.


--- Quote from: Solar on October 15, 2010, 05:02:51 PM ---How you build your character should affect how successful it is. There is 0.000001% chance of that fact changing.

However, having said that, there could be a lot more variation inside those builds to open up more options to make combat more tactical - which is what we're aiming to do via the perk revisions, which are being worked on at the moment.

--- End quote ---

I dont aim the builds on themselves. The SPECIAL is good base for a game. The problem i see, is the one you just said, that tactical options are currently limited a lot to the build. A lot better situation would be, in my opinion, if besides the build, there were extened tactical options (FOV is one of them, which is good, but still more area to improve on) that would allow one to overcome the diffrence in builds/items. Meaning, by using a tactical advantege you as a one char player (no alts) is able to kill a power build. Ofc, this is possible now to, but, 95% of sucess is luck in 1 on 1 situations (a crafter/combat char(no alt) against an alt powerbuild).

Solar:
How you build your character should affect how successful it is. There is 0.000001% chance of that fact changing.

However, having said that, there could be a lot more variation inside those builds to open up more options to make combat more tactical - which is what we're aiming to do via the perk revisions, which are being worked on at the moment.

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