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[Bulldog]

And here is average hit from plasma rifle


then write me you great bg build with at least 9 PE and (if i understand well its needed over 220 bg skill to all bullets shoot the target from max range). Its not sniper dude ;]

I prefer keeping my builds to myself.

[Johnny Nuclear]

adins just dont likle BGuns.
solar were you also testing it with psycho ?

[Hololasima]

So first test was Avenger + 2xBRD to person who had only BA.

Second test was LSW + 25 crit chance to person who had only BA.

Can you test LSW with 25 crit chance AND 2x BRD ? Also you can do this test with Avenger. Then type and you will see ...

[Kilgore]

The hell, why do you make BG builds that need 15-20 hexes to be efficient? I play BG right now and they are good enough if built right.

You probably don't understand the fact that the range of avenger minigun is 35 hexes and the range of the sniper rifle is 50 hexes. So basically, you need to run through 15-20hexes while a sniper can shoot you straight into your eyes without risking shit. In my opinion, last changes (AP ammo change, fast shot change) made big guns (especially minigun/avenger) something like water guns.

[Wichura]

In my opinion, last changes (AP ammo change, fast shot change) made big guns (especially minigun/avenger) something like water guns.

Cool! Water guns!


But seriously - I liked Fast Shot trait a lot. Now it's like a Bloody Mess trait - almost useless.

[Solar]

So first test was Avenger + 2xBRD to person who had only BA.

Second test was LSW + 25 crit chance to person who had only BA.

Can you test LSW with 25 crit chance AND 2x BRD ? Also you can do this test with Avenger. Then type and you will see ...

First test was Avenger and LSW with 2 BRD. Then it was LSW to compare 2 BRD to 3* more crits, as crazy asked for.

adins just dont likle BGuns.
solar were you also testing it with psycho ?

Psycho wouldn't change anything because they would both be affected equally.

[Heckler Spray]

But seriously - I liked Fast Shot trait a lot. Now it's like a Bloody Mess trait - almost useless.

Yeah, but problem is : a trait has to provide an advantage AND an disavantage for every type of character. Unfortunately, Fast Shot didn't have any negative side for a Big Gunner, it was a must-have. Maybe it should be rework again to allow Big Gunners to take this trait, but not set as it was before.

[Wichura]

There was a disadvantage - you couldn't aim. Any snipers here with Fast Shot?

[Solar]

Can you test LSW with 25 crit chance AND 2x BRD ? Also you can do this test with Avenger. Then type and you will see ...

LSW:

BRDx2: ok, 20 shots
11:07:00 • BRDx2: lsw
11:07:03 • Gorlak was hit for 84 hit points.
11:07:06 • Gorlak was hit for 75 hit points.
11:07:11 • Gorlak was hit for 101 hit points.
11:07:13 • Gorlak was hit for 73 hit points.
11:07:17 • Gorlak was hit for 76 hit points.
11:07:21 • Gorlak was hit for 25 hit points.
11:07:24 • Gorlak was hit for 90 hit points.
11:07:28 • Gorlak was hit for 77 hit points.
11:07:31 • Gorlak was hit for 67 hit points.
11:07:35 • Gorlak was critically hit for 115 hit points.
11:07:39 • Gorlak was critically hit for 131 hit points.
11:07:42 • Gorlak was hit for 16 hit points.
11:07:46 • Gorlak was hit for 83 hit points.
11:07:50 • Gorlak was hit for 74 hit points.
11:07:53 • Gorlak was hit for 77 hit points.
11:07:57 • Gorlak was hit for 74 hit points.
11:08:03 • Gorlak was critically hit for 202 hit points and was killed.
11:08:12 • Gorlak was hit for 75 hit points.
11:08:16 • Gorlak was hit for 84 hit points.
11:08:33 • Gorlak was hit for 89 hit points.
11:08:36 • BRDx2: ok, 20

Avenger:

BRDx2: now avenger
11:08:48 • Gorlak was hit for 68 hit points.
11:08:50 • Gorlak was critically hit for 163 hit points.
11:08:54 • Gorlak was hit for 97 hit points.
11:08:58 • Gorlak was hit for 94 hit points.
11:09:01 • Gorlak was critically hit for 217 hit points.
11:09:05 • Gorlak was hit for 69 hit points.
11:09:09 • Gorlak was critically hit for 161 hit points.
11:09:12 • Gorlak was hit for 91 hit points.
11:09:16 • Gorlak was hit for 26 hit points.
11:09:21 • Gorlak was hit for 51 hit points.
11:09:25 • Gorlak was hit for 96 hit points.
11:09:27 • Gorlak was hit for 92 hit points.
11:09:31 • Gorlak was hit for 96 hit points.
11:09:35 • Gorlak was hit for 99 hit points.
11:09:39 • Gorlak was hit for 87 hit points.
11:09:42 • Gorlak was hit for 75 hit points.
11:09:46 • Gorlak was hit for 66 hit points.
11:09:49 • Gorlak was hit for 65 hit points.
11:09:53 • Gorlak was hit for 67 hit points.
11:10:08 • Gorlak was hit for 89 hit points.
11:10:11 • BRDx2: ok, 20

1869 Avenger (Average of 93.45) 1614 LSW (Average of 80.7)

Result as expected, again. (Theres nothing in the uncalled crit table that would favour LSW, so its like psycho and won't change relative power level.

Avenger is better.


Also, bursts still way out perform sniper type weapons in damage terms. There will be more perks (like stonewall) that protect against crit effects and a trait to reduce the crit roll ... snipers just haven't had all of their toning down done yet.

Fast Shot will be more useful - its actually useful for builds now though. Fast shot, pistol build + living anatomy. The concept will be expanded with future perk reworks though - at the moment its only really 14mm, .223 pistol and plasma pistol that are pvp kind of level.

[Crazy]

Solar, sorry, but... What about with better crit? ;p

[Solar]

It will add a fraction of damage to each - its an identical boost to both, so add on 2 or 3 to each average

[Rejfyl]

Now lets talk about cost of using avenger and lsw then compare it to your statistics:) After that think about plasma rifle and it cost. Hmm something is not right

[Solar]

Yup, costs are off at the moment.

As I see it we will eventually have:
Avenger & LSW (Tier 3 equivalents)
Minigun & M60 (Tier 2 equivalents)

Avenger costing about +50% to maintain - about $200 for a shot of AP (So 5mm AP costing $5) and LSW costing about $130 (So .223 FMJ costing $13 or so)

Then Minigun costing about $150 for a shot and M60 costing about $100 (7.62mm being $10).

The costs would be similar ratios to these and things will be done so its not so easy to get free LSW, Miniguns and Avengers - they'll still be avbailable, but arm cripples for free Miniguns or looting NCR Army after mutants kill them will be over. Hopefully we will get to the point where there is a tough (but fun?) fight for them.

I want to get decent weapons balance for everything and then re-cost in one go, so it all makes sense. I actually only took over doing the weapons changes on my own just before the last wipe, so its still early stages in the changes as far as I'm concerned.

Next wave of changes will be to the lowest tier of things (Shotgun, Mauser, Magnum, Knives, Knuckles, Spears etc) ... maybe a drop of the Plasma Rifle back to 24 hexes, depends how its playing in PvP at the moment.

[Hololasima]

I really dont know where you take those numbers. Its just not true. I NEVER had damage over 80 with Avenger. What is wrong ?

And how its possible that i had critical for 69 damage to some sniper with Avenger ?

[RavenousRat]

And how its possible that i had critical for 69 damage to some sniper with Avenger ?

Ehm... I have x1 thoughness and BA, and I got that damage from simple minigun and non-critical.
50-60 is a damage from mini to me while I wearing BA and have x1 thoughness, I don't know what's perks and skill of shooter, but it's obviously x2 BRD.
I think your sniper psycho and beer and x2 thoughness addict in magical BA and evil GM cursed your avenger minigun.