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[Badger]

Permadeath is a bad idea. It's not fun. Fallout, much as I love it, has too many 'bullshit!' mechanics. NPC gets the first shot, your leg crumples, and then it's a month's work down the drain. I don't play games for that kind of frustration.


I think FOnline could do with going in the opposite direction. No full loot on death. Then the ways and rate at which people acquire gear can be much more carefully managed, and bases won't be full of stuff people will never get around to using.

[Sarakin]

I think you quite overdid with that 95% of players - or we do mean new players [?] becouse i keep on hearing that people taking some time "off" the game becouse they are bored and there is not anything worthy of doing, or just waiting - praying- for next wipe. Some of them are writting suggestions like that, some are working on events you must see that people want "more and more".

From my gameplay i must say that first kills were just "awsome", for some time it was quite nice fun and then it was less and less interesting - as i told ya, next armor, next gun, next thousand of ammo. I suggest that you think more about it between your hard mining/crafting job. Gameplay now is interesting till some point that is reached too fast [imo]. Will PDE change it? Probably no, but i strongly belive that 2238 will become far more chalange than it is now.

Im aware of boredom present in FOnline these days. There were numerous hateposts, where people wrote about their disappointment in endgame expectation. But your solution is just wrong, people will be frustrated even more.
What about using your stashed stuff for a real challenge - pvp ?

I think ,this sentence written by Sius sums it all: "And even if it would be possible I think that permadeath/loosing exp has no place in good MMORPG"

[Quentin Lang]

Nearly all of the pros of permadeath OP mentioned wouldnt work. Permadeath would just make the game unnececarily harder. While i like this game as hardcore it is, such a thing would make it unplayable.

[Sius]

I think FOnline could do with going in the opposite direction. No full loot on death. Then the ways and rate at which people acquire gear can be much more carefully managed, and bases won't be full of stuff people will never get around to using.

It would definitely make item balance easier since without full loot on death we would be able to actual progress with out items even after death = even low tier weapons would be actually used (of course changes are necessary as you mentioned in other topic). But I would like to see this live even just for a moment (maybe test it 1 month before wipe to see how it will work out).

[Pandemon]

If I understood well, you both want to delete losing all stuff while dieying because its too hard to get items? 
You guys are crazy if yes, atm. I've played 2 months in a gang and I have enough items for next 6 months but I am sure there will be WIPE sooner.
It's incredebily easy to get tons of stuff atm.

[JarekBrowarek]

I think this isn't good idead, because if you die, you must make new character and try exping again. This suggestion support alting and more PKs. Why PKs? Because some people will killing all around and make harder for players. Try play to FOnline: The Life After or others servers. There are most of PKs whos killing new players. Don't say me crying noob, because I was playing 2 years old on TLA server, I had lots of equipment (APAs, gauss, bozars and other fucking shit, my private hammers too) and closed beta server. If developers make permament death lots of players go play others servers and there will be +/- 20 players online.
Don't forget about players who don't have gang, play alone for fun and exploring world in this mod for favourite old games Fallout.
If you are boring go play other server. I boring in TLA last christmas so I started playing at this server.

[Izual]

...

...

So true, I'd like to see that too. However, it is really a big change, and I don't think FOnline: 2238 is heading in this direction.

[Badger]

It's not about the difficulty in getting items, it's the impact full loot has on gameplay. That is:


People getting murdered for their stuff, losing what they've worked for and ragequitting.

People losing quest items.

People being too scared to use their best gear.

People only entering fights they know they can definitely win.


None of these strike me as good gameplay. You may disagree.

[Sius]

If I understood well, you both want to delete losing all stuff while dieying because its too hard to get items? 
You guys are crazy if yes, atm. I've played 2 months in a gang and I have enough items for next 6 months but I am sure there will be WIPE sooner.
It's incredebily easy to get tons of stuff atm.

You just made a point here. Its so easy to farm items that no one wants anything other than Tier 3 weapons and armors. Only small % of players is actually using anything else than the best equipment and these people mostly don't do PvP.

The main idea is to keep at least some of your items, lets say everything equipped will stay on you after death with small chance to loose even equipped items (1 out of 10 deaths to drop one item from active slot) and items in inventory could follow some other pattern how to deal with death drops. Lets say that you would always loose 1/2 of your ammo, 50 to 90% of your money but you would never drop a quest items etc... but its all about the design.
Anyway this and some changes in weapon/armor crafting eg making weapons/ammo/armor more rare/expensive since they would be easier to stick with one item for longer time and we can finally see some actual ingame progress other than 7 perks and few points spent in skills.

Simply full drop on death has no real benefits other than paranoia effect which is really cool but it already faded away long time ago. Anyway as one of the Guild Wars II developers said in one of their preview videos, they don't want to punish players on their death. Players defeat itself is punishment for him and they don't want to punish him even more by forcing him to spend endless minutes running around trying to find his corpse or some other punishment system. They want player to be back in the action and playing/enjoying the game as soon as possible - I like that kind of thinking.

[Keldorn]

Stupid idea.

There are always asshole exploiters/hackers.  What happens when someone dies to that?  What happens when people die due to lag?  All it will benefit is those chars with insane twitch reflexes who either hotkey a quick quit game button or have it on auto with some kind of bot program.  If games like WoW cant even handle all the EULA violations how can a non profit game do it??

PS:  I agree dropping everything on death is a bad idea.  It is bad enough we have griefers on every MMO (yes its griefing when people pick on unarmed folks instead of being real pvpers and go out killing someone equally geared or atleast experienced), losing everything on a corpse only adds to their enjoyment.  So you die from a cheesy build, alright I can understand.  But it loses its fun sooner or later.  Gear loss actually encourages people to make an extremely effective (yet very naked build), homicide build to "treasure hunt".  One of the reasons WoW is so popular is because it doesn't encourage world pvp, instead they say bring it to the arena or battlegrounds.  If you want to be a badass, then be a badass in the arena or battlegrounds.  Earn rewards  and bragging rights for killing an equally tough opponent.  Not for ganking some noob who was just trying out and trying to enjoy the game.

[Avoral]

Nearly all of the pros of permadeath OP mentioned wouldnt work. Permadeath would just make the game unnececarily harder. While i like this game as hardcore it is, such a thing would make it unplayable.

As far as i see this game is becoming easier and easier so it is not a good idea to call this game "hardcore" just becouse it is not so player friendly as many mmo right now where you keep you items like forever [if you dont change them on better/get hacked]

I think this isn't good idead, because if you die, you must make new character and try exping again. This suggestion support alting and more PKs. Why PKs? Because some people will killing all around and make harder for players. Try play to FOnline: The Life After or others servers. There are most of PKs whos killing new players. Don't say me crying noob, because I was playing 2 years old on TLA server, I had lots of equipment (APAs, gauss, bozars and other fucking shit, my private hammers too) and closed beta server. If developers make permament death lots of players go play others servers and there will be +/- 20 players online.
Don't forget about players who don't have gang, play alone for fun and exploring world in this mod for favourite old games Fallout.
If you are boring go play other server. I boring in TLA last christmas so I started playing at this server.

OMG... Let starts from begining...
- PDE is about playing a char/dying/making new one so there will be more diffrence between characters there will be weaklings and heroses/vilians.
- how the hell it support alting? i would just love to hear how can it support alting and make them more usefull than they are right now?
- Yea, it supports PK a lot, and hell yea it is supposed to make game harder and make people to SPEAK with others to learn something, if someone cry that this game sux he recive headshot and bye bye, solved problem.
- I do not call anyone n00b, there was just something about Sarakin speaking style
- yep lots of people will leave, and guess what? lots of people will come, people who do not know a history of previous era's and will not cry that "there were good times" - they will just play on a new rules. King have died - there will be another one.
- on my national forum i did suggested that PDE should be 3 months, that would be fairy period where lots of updates could be instaled becouse of its chaos.
- thx for advice but i wold like rather to hear more about what you are feared about in PDE rahter than where would you want to send me :]

If I understood well, you both want to delete losing all stuff while dieying because its too hard to get items?  
You guys are crazy if yes, atm. I've played 2 months in a gang and I have enough items for next 6 months but I am sure there will be WIPE sooner.
It's incredebily easy to get tons of stuff atm.

+1 - since some time people in f02238 are more and more lazy, this is tooo hard to do, i am dying, the pk'ers are kiling blue suits... 6 months and we will se suggestions like "  why not use active macros? you know, macro is working and i press just a letter when picture pop up, just like Ultima Online!" =.=

So true, I'd like to see that too. However, it is really a big change, and I don't think FOnline: 2238 is heading in this direction.

We, grey players, dont know where dev's are planing to go. Could you mayby say more about it?

It's not about the difficulty in getting items, it's the impact full loot has on gameplay. That is:
People getting murdered for their stuff, losing what they've worked for and ragequitting.
People losing quest items.
People being too scared to use their best gear
People only entering fights they know they can definitely win.
None of these strike me as good gameplay. You may disagree.

1. Thats the point of PDE
2. Thats the risk
3. I strongly disagree, if they will go on pk/tc/caravans they will use their STRONGEST items becouse they want to SURVIVE, what is the purpse of keeping top gear in tent if you gona lose all when you die? You could think that bases are better idea but on other hand you rather will take top gear than lose your beloved char - or i am wrong?
4. You men now they do not? there will be people wo will do that and there will be people who will risk - just as it is now

The main idea is to keep at least some of your items, lets say everything equipped will stay on you after death with small chance to loose even equipped items (1 out of 10 deaths to drop one item from active slot) and items in inventory could follow some other pattern how to deal with death drops. Lets say that you would always loose 1/2 of your ammo, 50 to 90% of your money but you would never drop a quest items etc... but its all about the design.

Simply full drop on death has no real benefits other than paranoia effect which is really cool but it already faded away long time ago. Anyway as one of the Guild Wars II developers said in one of their preview videos, they don't want to punish players on their death. Players defeat itself is punishment for him and they don't want to punish him even more by forcing him to spend endless minutes running around trying to find his corpse or some other punishment system. They want player to be back in the action and playing/enjoying the game as soon as possible - I like that kind of thinking.

I do not, it will kill the 2238 spirit. "Wastland is harsh" - and this is not Guild Wars II. What is the meaning of winnign if you do not get anything from it? I do not know GW2 project but gameplay itself should be some sort of chalange imo, and devs should not make it easier and easier just becouse of new players that cry about their problems. In FMA there were some nice words " To gain something you must sacrafice something" - wish some people do not spend some time with that thought.

Stupid idea.

Where is ".. becouse..."?

There are always asshole exploiters/hackers.  What happens when someone dies to that?  What happens when people die due to lag?  All it will benefit is those chars with insane twitch reflexes who either hotkey a quick quit game button or have it on auto with some kind of bot program.  If games like WoW cant even handle all the EULA violations how can a non profit game do it??

There was, there are and there will be such a things, not only in fo2238, but hey! Most people are using tb in encounters and those things would be really problem for TC - however i strongly belive that if GM would watch some tc, and use permament ban on ip/cpu then it might resolve it for a little. Honesty, there will be hackers in every game but when the time pass and hack is more and more populer - then someday a dev will work it out.

PS:  I agree dropping everything on death is a bad idea.  It is bad enough we have griefers on every MMO (yes its griefing when people pick on unarmed folks instead of being real pvpers and go out killing someone equally geared or atleast experienced), losing everything on a corpse only adds to their enjoyment.  So you die from a cheesy build, alright I can understand.  But it loses its fun sooner or later.  Gear loss actually encourages people to make an extremely effective (yet very naked build), homicide build to "treasure hunt".  One of the reasons WoW is so popular is because it doesn't TRUE pvp, they can do it in arena style fighting.  All the rewards are for fighting other folks who want to fight in a sanctioned fight spot.  PKs in the world is funny but if theres no other incentive it loses its charm fast.

Droping is a bad idea... just why? The "story" sayss that robbers thought that you were dead and some lone wonderer saved your ass so... were those robbers just bored, wasted ammo on you and did not took your eq? People have mercy!

Ok how much does WoW creation costed? how many people worked on it? What world it is?  I mean, 2238 project is not comercial, and number of people working on it is very low so i suggest thatyou should stop daydreaming. As the time passes unarmed builds are less and less effective - in rt you only have to walk a little when he is trying to attack you, in tb they just look like meat...
Also there is this quest operation so pvp will also become just one of a ways to get gear.

[Izual]

We, grey players, dont know where dev's are planing to go. Could you mayby say more about it?

Well, blue GMs don't know either. It's just been two years (soon) that this game is being developed and there wasn't any change regarding full loot. I was saying that this game isn't going to the direction of : Less items / No full loots. That's my own feeling about it, I don't know what devs are planning about it either ; but I'm feeling that "full loot and plentiful of items" situation isn't going to change.

[Keldorn]

@Avoral

1.  unarmed builds are less and less effective - in rt you only have to walk a little when he is trying to attack you, in tb they just look like meat

Uh I am not talking about HtH.  Sneak/burst or sneak/nade build.  Plenty effective yet relatively cheap investment.

2.  Droping is a bad idea... just why? The "story" sayss that robbers thought that you were dead and some lone wonderer saved your ass so... were those robbers just bored, wasted ammo on you and did not took your eq? People have mercy!

Then go kill someone with an LSW, not some miner with a damned sledgehammer??  A 2 year old could figure that out.  Why the hell these PKers or "robbers" in your mind, not go kill people while a town is being taken by Chosen Soldiers or Lawyers.  Those guys are GUARANTEED to have loot.  

3.  Ok how much does WoW creation costed? how many people worked on it? What world it is?  I mean, 2238 project is not comercial, and number of people working on it is very low

What the helll does this have to do with anything relevant to the argument??  I know Fonline is being done free.  That means things should get simpler, not more complex.  PDE should be limited to those who want it.  Want to act like a badass?  Love talking trash and saying stupid crap like "wasteland is tough?"  Then be a man and go fight others who want the same with good gear ready for the taking.  If, of course your badass enough.  A good example of events where PDE should be enables is Town Control or Arena battles (which by the way are already enabled so its not like its going to cost a fortune).


4.  There was, there are and there will be such a things, not only in fo2238, but hey! Most people are using tb in encounters and those things would be really problem for TC - however i strongly belive that if GM would watch some tc, and use permament ban on ip/cpu then it might resolve it for a little. Honesty, there will be hackers in every game but when the time pass and hack is more and more populer - then someday a dev will work it out.

An example would be things like packet filtering.  As hackers get more advanced in their hacking, the dev teams needs to get to do the same.  Thing is can the devs keep up working for free?

5.  You still have not addressed the fact of people dying due to a faulty internet connection or a period of extreme lagginess. 

[Baptiste]

I assume people who like this all have lvl21 characters that have never died...

I doubt anyone would actually get there in such a world. Levelling would become mechanical, only going to a guaranteed safespot and farming. Doing anything that isn't 100% guranteed safe would be too dangerous and nobody would take any chances, which leads to a boring game with thousands of restrictions.

Is it really fun to lose a character with weeks of 'time played' because of a bomber, or a disconnect/crash heading into an encounter or just some bad luck?  Everytime I've encountered a PK I have been one shot without even getting a turn in turn-based combat - so to make this even remotely possible the combat system would have to be totally overhauled.  You can't have perma-death if there are a lot of deaths you have no control over, it would only be possible if skill ruled.  I can't imagine many people will want such a system, and I wouldn't mind betting several 'pro-perma-death' players would find the reality too much to cope with.

If you really want a perma-death system, then just RP it yourself. Delete all your characters, start a new one, and delete them if they die.

[Alvarez]

If you really want a perma-death system, then just RP it yourself. Delete all your characters, start a new one, and delete them if they die.

Fat chance he would do that.

Oh, how about certain replication tokens, like mutated mushrooms found in the wasteland?