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[Roachor]

I think grenades should take 4 ap to throw and throwing knives should take 3.

[Izual]

Agreed for knifes, somehow they don't need another nerf ;p

[Jeoshua]

Plus if you wanna go for the movie feel, you can't go wrong with a guy throwing like 3 knives at once and hitting everyone he aims at in the neck.

[Swinglinered]

Yes, grenades are pretty broken.  I noticed that even in the original fallout games, to the point I refused to use them.

Broken from "Game" or "Simulation" pov?

I get the idea that some people here want grenades to be like in Counterstrike: an annoying and sometimes useful thing that provides "support". At least in CS/CSS, nades provide some kind of indirect fire.


Also: I haven't seen knockback/knockdown from grenades in a while.

I just think that 2 Ap for throwing a grenade is to low. Can u pull the ring and throw the grenade faster then u pull the trigger on a weapon ?

2 AP is with Fast Shot AND BRoF (a Lv 15 Perk), so this is an extreme case, requiring a high-level specialist.

As for pulling a ring... rings can be pre-pulled and the lever held with a string- perhaps even several grenades on a string.
Kind of dangerous, though.
Hmmm...
Perhaps a "primed" mode with dynamite-like countdown, 1 AP put put the ring back in and stop the countdown.
Pre-burned grenades keep their countdown after ring-reinsertion and have to be recrafted (1 GP) to make them regular, stackable nades again.

I wouldn't have a problem if nades were AP6-7 to start with, and bring back the old knockback/down, maybe increase AoE by 1 hex, increase crafing CD by 1 minute per individual nade, and have the max range be based on Str 5 (Which it sort of is, but in a way that makes higher Str not matter).
Add 1 range per Str above that, and 2 per level of Heave-Ho!
At present Heave Ho only helps with Str <5.

Perhaps require an extra AP to throw beyond regular max range if Str/Heave Ho enable the extra range.
1 total or 1 per hex or 1 per 2-3 hexes? 

This way nades would be balanced in a way that satifies both gaminess and simulation. (Well, a compromise.)


 

[Nice_Boat]

Those things do not follow at all.

Small Frame always reduces your carry weight, heavy handed always reduces your crit roll etc. Fast Shot does nothing to bursters and grenade throwers ... ever.

Wrong. Throwers can't level up by eyecritting with spears/throwing knives, which makes them a bitch to bring to 21. Bursters can't use Bozar, which would be epic for crit-based BG on jet... and most BG these days are crit-based to some extent. The "harder to level" argument works here as well - firing a Bozar 100 times is waaaay cheaper than firing a minigun or a rocket launcher. I don't think I need to tell you how it limits SG bursters, cause that's obvious.

And honestly, wtf is with people writing that grenades cause knockback? Plasma grenades don't - and they're the only ones that matter. If 2 ap/throw pains your eyes, make it 3 or 4 - but increase the damage by 50% or 100%, because right now they're good when it comes to damage output - slightly better than rifles, way worse than any BG/SG burstmachine. Besides, I'm just curious - why are you tinkering with a weapon that's more or less well balanced? Trying to break stuff for no reason? Because honestly, the only people who complain about grenades are PvP newbies. If anything, they're underpowered, at least when compared with the knockback causing incarnation from a year ago or something like that.

Actually there is a problem with grenades... Are they designed to be mass-thrown weapons or to be used from time to time, as support ? I would prefer them to be thrown because of a tactic, not because it's your main weapon and you use 30 grenades in a single fight.

Than make the players capable of targeting terrain aside from other critters. You'd get a lot of "tactical" grenade use in room clearing etc. Furthermore - why can't they be both?

[Kilgore]

Fast Shot does nothing to bursters and grenade throwers ... ever.

Erm.. making "fast shot" not working for bursters would cause imbalance in current pvp.
Grenades are now fine: they aren't too powerful and also they aren't useless, they are quite effective while playing solo. Yet I see every now and again someone whines about grenades because he was killed.

Shit happens. If you now nerf grenades, then they will whine about being killed by a big gunner, so you will nerf big gunners, then they will whine about uber small gunners and so on..

[Solar]

Plasma Gren / Avenger w/ AP - both Fast Shot BRoF

None   1.832706767
LJ   1.64943609
LA   1.64943609
LA2   1.64943609
CLJ   1.928571429
M   1.633928571
M2   1.531808036
Tesla   0.368303571
CA   1.074953008
CA2   1.301330249
BCA   1.006362059


Plasma Gren / Avenger w/ AP - both BRoF only

None   1.466165414
LJ   1.319548872
LA   1.319548872
LA2   1.319548872
CLJ   1.542857143
M   1.307142857
M2   1.225446429
Tesla   0.294642857
CA   0.859962406
CA2   1.041064199
BCA   0.805089647

This is comparing to THE best damage dealer on the game. Plasmas would still be fine.

Wrong. Throwers can't level up by eyecritting with spears/throwing knives, which makes them a bitch to bring to 21. Bursters can't use Bozar, which would be epic for crit-based BG on jet... and most BG these days are crit-based to some extent. The "harder to level" argument works here as well - firing a Bozar 100 times is waaaay cheaper than firing a minigun or a rocket launcher. I don't think I need to tell you how it limits SG bursters, cause that's obvious.

A 50% DPS increase traded against not being able to level with spears (Levelling on Molerats will be fixed anyway) is no trade off.

[Crazy]

Plasma Gren / Avenger w/ AP - both Fast Shot BRoF

None   1.832706767
LJ   1.64943609
LA   1.64943609
LA2   1.64943609
CLJ   1.928571429
M   1.633928571
M2   1.531808036
Tesla   0.368303571
CA   1.074953008
CA2   1.301330249
BCA   1.006362059


Plasma Gren / Avenger w/ AP - both BRoF only

None   1.466165414
LJ   1.319548872
LA   1.319548872
LA2   1.319548872
CLJ   1.542857143
M   1.307142857
M2   1.225446429
Tesla   0.294642857
CA   0.859962406
CA2   1.041064199
BCA   0.805089647

This is comparing to THE best damage dealer on the game. Plasmas would still be fine.

A 50% DPS increase traded against not being able to level with spears (Levelling on Molerats will be fixed anyway) is no trade off.

Huh am I the only one who don't understand anything at your numbers?

Also, I have to agree with Kilgore and Nice Boat: they're right.

[Solar]

For example a plasma grenade will do +53% DPS on metal armour compared to an Avenger Minigun currently.

(To put that in context, thats about the difference between a Greese Gun and an Avenger)

[Nice_Boat]

For example a plasma grenade will do +53% DPS on metal armour compared to an Avenger Minigun currently.

3 Avenger bursts = a kill
5 plasma grenades = not a kill

You won't throw more because the target will be on the run. Oh, and he could always run towards you and burst you point-blank while you hurt yourself with your own grenades (and since most sneak-throwers don't go heavy on armour that's a nasty and effective tactic). Numbers and theorycrafting =/= everything. Real time =/= turn based. You would be right if plasma grenades caused knockback, but they don't - and they have very weak range. Basically, they're not the killer of this game and they're far from being top tier weapons, for reasons already mentioned. The only reason they're used at all is because they're the only weapon that goes along with sneak well. You mindlessly tinker with them - you break a weapon, therefore upsetting balance.

Bottom line: they're good as they are, there's no reason to change them. Same with burst builds.

[Kilgore]

For example a plasma grenade will do +53% DPS on metal armour compared to an Avenger Minigun currently.

(To put that in context, thats about the difference between a Greese Gun and an Avenger)

Then why we don't see almost any plasma grenadiers (or 1-2) in battles, but we see many big gunners using avengers? Is it because people don't realise that plasma nades are some kind of an UBER weapon or what? Numbers are something different from practice.

And yes, I've got a grenadier with sneak and some experience playing such a char, I don't use him in PvP because psycho big gunner / energy sniper is simply better.

[Solar]

3 Avenger bursts = a kill
5 plasma grenades = not a kill

5 Plasma Grenades Average Damage = 65, Metal Armour II is 4/25%. 61*0.75*5 = 228.75 HP
3 Avenger Shots, Average Damage = 9.5, Metal Armour II is  4/35% = ((9.5*0.6666)-1)*0.93)*13*3 = 193.44 HP ... or with 2 BRD its 241.8 HP

Now lets factor in Toughness (2) on the Avenger, since we gave him 2 BRD, its only fair.

11.5 Average damage (2 BRD) 8/45% armour => ((11.5*0.6666)-2)*0.91)*13*3 = 201.1

Factor in Psycho? If you insist.

11.5 Average damage 8/75% => ((11.5*0.66666)-2)*0.85)*13*3 = 187.85

Remember this is with 10AP (Plasma) vs 15AP (Avenger)


I believe I'm right in saying that it has no knockback, but the animation prevents you firing back, no?


Lets say the Nader has 4 Grenades = $1000 (no perks taken up) vs Avenger 3 shots = $1062 in ammo + $10k
for an Avenger (with 2 perks taken up)

[Kilgore]

Are we talking about 1v1 duel or overall usefulness of a grenadier with plasma nades?

[Crazy]

Well, with the animation time, with jet and full AP, you burst 3 times in 3 seconds, and throw 4 nades in 3 seconds. 3 burst kill, but 4 nades don't. Burster win. Also if the player go  near the grenader, the grenader take his own damage. And the nades lack of range.

[Michaelh139]

Grenadiers should use grenades and shotguns.


Grenade from distance, shotgun from pointblank to avoid splash damage.

Simple.