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[Solar]

Are we talking about 1v1 duel or overall usefulness of a grenadier with plasma nades?

We are talking about what I quoted, 5 Plasma nades > 3 Avenger shots in terms of what it can kill.

Well, with the animation time, with jet and full AP, you burst 3 times in 3 seconds

Fast Shot won't be changed in isolation.

[Kilgore]

Not enough mana. Erm, I mean skill points.

[Nice_Boat]

5 Plasma Grenades Average Damage = 65, Metal Armour II is 4/25%. 61*0.75*5 = 228.75 HP
3 Avenger Shots, Average Damage = 9.5, Metal Armour II is  4/35% = ((9.5*0.6666)-1)*0.93)*13*3 = 193.44 HP ... or with 2 BRD its 241.8 HP

Now lets factor in Toughness (2) on the Avenger, since we gave him 2 BRD, its only fair.

11.5 Average damage (2 BRD) 8/45% armour => ((11.5*0.6666)-2)*0.91)*13*3 = 201.1

That would be Toughness (1), because you don't take two on a powerbuild. Ans I still will insist that Avenger is way more reliable in providing you with kills than plasma nades. No idea why, it's just the way it is.

Oh, and please remember a good BG build has a 20-25% critical chance, with most criticalls being one shot kills. With 3 bursts you're more likely to shoot the guy up like that than not. Grenade builds have 1% critical chance.

And once you factor in the exposition factor (break from cover, 3 bursts, hide vs. break from cover, throw 5 times while exposed, get killed before scoring a kill) you come to the conclusion PvP players have realized a long time ago - grenades suck in group combat. They're a good assassination 1v1 weapon against a surprised victim. That's basically it.

Factor in Psycho? If you insist.

That's the only situation in which plasma grenades are theoretically viable in open combat... but then again let's be hardcore and factor in Tesla. Starts looking a bit funny, eh?

Remember this is with 10AP (Plasma) vs 15AP (Avenger)

The only time AP matters is when you either:
a) run out hard (that is, the enemy didn't run and you didn't get him after throwing 7 or something like that - the fact I've had it happen from time to time is a testimony to how grenades can suck HARD as a "battle weapon")
b) play turn based, in which grenades truely are just plain nasty.

Both cases really aren't all that common though.

I believe I'm right in saying that it has no knockback, but the animation prevents you firing back, no?

Click click click click BANG. Nuff said. The animation doesn't prevent you from either firing back or (which is more important) running. I'd say that a person that lets him- or herself be killed by grenades while wearing combat armor and up was either distracted or inexperienced.

[Michaelh139]

Grenadiers should use grenades and shotguns.


Grenade from distance, shotgun from pointblank to avoid splash damage.

Simple.

Sorry for quoting myself but I think being the last post it got overlooked.

[Kilgore]

We are talking about what I quoted, 5 Plasma nades > 3 Avenger shots in terms of what it can kill.

Fast Shot won't be changed in isolation.

OK then. If you like numbers so much, grenadier has 37.5% of the range of the big gunner with avenger minigun, and also, the part of FOV where he can attack effectively and at the same time - safely - is way lower than those 37.5%. Of course he can use sneak. But when we're talking about specific builds or sets of equipment involved, then the biggunner can crit him killing him instantly, or wear tesla. Then, you'd say, the grenadier can crit him too! But in fact, I bet that average biggunner has critical chance at least few times higher than that of an average grenadier.

[Nice_Boat]

Michael - swapping takes way too much time in which the target would be away/you'd be dead and there's not enough skillpoints to combine that with sneak... so basically you're just very much wrong. But I wonder how high PE shotgun burst sneaker on jet would work. Maybe 160% SG would do the trick here... I mean Jackhammer from 5 hex range with 3 bursts would probably be quite nice. But I don't think such a build would be anything groundbreaking.

[Michaelh139]

Michael - swapping takes way too much time in which the target would be away/you'd be dead and there's not enough skillpoints to combine that with sneak... so basically you're just very much wrong. But I wonder how high PE shotgun burst sneaker on jet would work. Maybe 160% SG would do the trick here... I mean Jackhammer from 5 hex range with 3 bursts would probably be quite nice. But I don't think such a build would be anything groundbreaking.

Forget putting anything in sneak though.   Then what do you have?

Tag Throwing, First Aid, and Smallguns.  Then put in FastShot and Good Natured Traits, and make a powerbuild accordingly.

Is it still not any good?

[Nice_Boat]

Forget putting anything in sneak though.   Then what do you have?

Tag Throwing, First Aid, and Smallguns.  Then put in FastShot and Good Natured Traits, and make a powerbuild accordingly.

Is it still not any good?

Well, you still couldn't swap instantly, so there's no way you could effectively use both weapons in a single encounter. You could do it in turnbased, but then again you could just as well move a hex or two and throw nades instead (and I'm not denying they're super-strong if the target can't move and you can let them all fly, which is the case in TB). Another problem with such build would be closing in on the target - there's very little room clearing in this game, and it'd be basically sniper fodder in the open. I think the only way to use a shotgun in this game would be to go with sneakbursting.

[Michaelh139]

Well, you still couldn't swap instantly, so there's no way you could effectively use both weapons in a single encounter. You could do it in turnbased, but then again you could just as well move a hex or two and throw nades instead (and I'm not denying they're super-strong if the target can't move and you can let them all fly, which is the case in TB). Another problem with such build would be closing in on the target - there's very little room clearing in this game, and it'd be basically sniper fodder in the open. I think the only way to use a shotgun in this game would be to go with sneakbursting.

So the only way this build would be of any use the swappage would have to instantaneous? Dammit..

What about close quarters?  If your in an small alley or a building you can't really throw grenades so being a mix between the two would at least give you some leverage :/.

[Nice_Boat]

So the only way this build would be of any use the swappage would have to instantaneous? Dammit..

What about close quarters?  If your in an small alley or a building you can't really throw grenades so being a mix between the two would at least give you some leverage :/.

No, honestly. You'd still be better off with sneak and the ability to choose the moment to strike/exfil "safely". I just don't think those weapons mix, especially since they mostly do the same thing. I've been thinking about making a sniper/grenadier build, but that would require plasma nades with knockback or dynacord. Grenades as a sort of close distance self-defence weapons are a mainstay on TLA, but they don't work like that on 2238 because of levelcap (different HP standard), running and lack of knockback.

[kttdestroyer]

Well, this is what i think

The granades are very specific in their way as it is. A thrower character is almost a character "class" on its own. And personally i think that is good. So every skill like big guns, small guns, energy and thrower got diffrent tactics, all this together gives a bit more flexiblity to the game. More tactical options. I dont think there is anything that has to be changed in terms of granades... Maybe easier making of throwing knifes like 2 at once isntead of 1.

My 50 cents or how you say.

[Solar]

Well, we can factor in criticals if you want.

Plasma Grenade boost per 1% of crit chance = 0.65%
Avenger boost per 1% of crit chance = 0.5%
Boost on Avenger with 2 BRD per 1% = 0.6

Now its very easy for a Plasma nader to get near +25% crit chance, they have very few requirements and no specialised perks. Lets say each has 3*More crits (Finesse is a stupid idea for burst, so ignore this), BG has 2*BRD, 3 More Crits, BRoF  and ... Toughness? and Grenade Thrower has Silent Running, Thief,  Heave Ho!, BRoF and 3 More Crits.

My Sneak Thrower would be: 3/6/4/1/10/10/7 - Small Frame/Fast Shot - 95% accuracy at max range, enough sneak to be 15 hexes invisible vs Pe 10, crit chance of 22% (or +14.3% damage).
BG Char we have 7/6/6/1/6/8/7 - Small Frame/Fast Shot to compare fairly, though Small Frame is less convienient for BG - Let's say this will do, we don't want to waste the perk on weapon handling because more crits gives +5% where +3 Luck is only +3%. Crit chance also +22% (or +13.2%).

Since you say Toughness (1) is the norm:
Plasma Grenades Average Damage = 65, Metal Armour II is 4/25%. 61*0.75*1.143 = 52.3 HP
Avenger = 11.5, Metal Armour II is  6/40% = ((11.5*0.6666)-2)*0.92)*13*1.132 = 76.7 HP

3 Avenger Shots is then about 230 HP and 5 Plasma Grenades will be about 262 HP, even 4 Grenades are 209 HP.

Having tested it it seems the animation speed pretty much caps it at 5 Grenades per 3 Minigun bursts - This means a Plasma nader is like a Minigunner on Jet only they do more damamge, costs them nothing and the animation speeds are near equal. (I think its a pretty safe bet Jet won't be allowing you to gain 6 AP in future either, less effect and a longer period seems to be the best way forward.)


Advantages the Ambush Nader has are very high DPS, splash damage, the ability to choose where combat take place and very little risk/set-up cost (say $1000 vs $12200). Sure you're going to want Armoured people somewhere, but 3 or 4 Grenaders are a massive force multiplier (and still would be even if the only thing to change was fast shot not working on them).

[Nice_Boat]

...

Solar, this discussion is pointless if you pull worthless builds and purely theoretical tactics out of your ass like that, sorry. You can't have a sneaker without skilled/10 IN, which basically limits your perks to silent running, thief or ghost, BrOF and lifegiver with toughness (1) or awareness. If you go with low HP like that, you're not even getting past that first minigun burst, and you're going to waste yourself with your own nades more often than you waste your enemy. For a good sneaker, you need 10 IN and 10 EN - so where would that high luck be coming from? And even if you somehow squeeze something out of your SPECIAL - how the hell would you put more critical in? Without skilled - how would you get enough throwing to get 95% at 15 hex? And why 15? If you attack at 15, you're not throwing more than 2 - most people would do the smart thing and run a few hexes back while their partner(s) fill you full of lead or simply run away if it's 1v1. You want to put enough of your nades in - you attack at 5. So basically you run up to the person in question, he sees you, you pray he's not fast enough/distracted and start throwing. And that by no means guarantees your success.

As to that BG build - you're kidding, right? Let's just leave it at 25% crit chance iis pretty much the standard, with better critical as a very much viable option. The bottom line being you end up with 1% crit chance vs 25% crit chance.

The only thing you got right is little risk associated with solo-playing a grenadier... but then again it's pretty much what people have been telling you since this discussion started. It's a good minestalker build and a good scout, nothing more. You still need armor for battles, and then the odds get a bit different - because once you unsneak in a big battle you basically die, while BG users have way higher survival rates and, more importantly - higher gear recovery rates. Just take a look at what sneakers do during TC. If you were right in the slightest degree, you'd see them blowing their opponents to tiny little pieces - but somehow they tend to go out of their way in avoiding combat - and most don't even bother taking their fighting gear there. I wonder why, if they're so lethal in your opinion? And how come people still go with different builds even though it denies them the advantage associated with sneak?

To sum up, your calculations miss:
- actual tactics used by the builds in question
- the builds themselves
- implied odds of using a sneak-grenadier in large (ie. TC) PvP
... which pretty much makes them nothing more than some interesting, albeit useless, trivia.

[Izual]

- actual tactics used by the builds in question

Grenader build. List of tactics :

• 1) Grenades Rain.

[Nice_Boat]

Grenader build. List of tactics :

• 1) Grenades Rain.

Riiiiiiiiiiight. And snipers shoot and BG burst. And combat in 2238 is simple and that's why all the players do it right and are equally successful, which is why there are about 15 gangs competing on equal terms in TC right now and what's more all the PvP events have proven that it's all about raining grenades and being lucky

Seriously though, that was some quality input on the issue at hand there, Izual. I think I've learned something about playing my sneaker today, thanks!