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[Admiral Zombie]

Because grenades are stealing the show in the sneak thread I figured it would be appropriate to open up the discussion somewhere else. To take a few of the highlights...

I don't really think anything should be able to get down to 2AP with a knockback. Any situation where you can concievably remove the ability to act from a player isn't that great.

You could make it 66% chance to knockdown or increase the AP from 2 to 3 and increase the damage by 50% - the only difference would be you use more money in the 2 AP 66% chance version.

Endurance is a factor in crippling, but part of Grenades and Rockets niche is that they always cause a knockback. No reason to change that really.

It's just that... 2AP for throwing a grenade... Heh.
Throwing 5 grenades in a row ? Even more heh.

Grenade should be one of the weapons requiring the max AP to throw, and dealing high dmg.

Thats covered the majority of stuff at least.

[Jeoshua]

Yes, grenades are pretty broken.  I noticed that even in the original fallout games, to the point I refused to use them.

[Roachor]

Yes, grenades are pretty broken.  I noticed that even in the original fallout games, to the point I refused to use them.

they were also super rare in f2

[Admiral Zombie]

So heres my general impression of grenades at the moment

Moderate damage, knockdown, very low action cost makes it a very powerful weapon. However you must be within 15hexes to attack, making the grenade suffer the problems HtH suffers from (just not nearly as hard to get in range, and the knockdown helps keep them in range)


I kind of wonder how broken are grenades. On paper they sound extremely broken, but i think the 15m range makes a huge difference (then again the fact that you can keep the person on the ground makes a big difference once you are in range). I would have to test them out personally, and have to fight against them more to know for sure, but it does seem to need some kind of rework.


Anyways i'll leave the question of whether or not they're broken up to others. For now here are a handful of ideas.

1.) I don't know if this is possible (or rather if the developers are willing to put in the work to code it this way) but it would be reasonable to have the ap cost of grenades depend on how far away the target is. If the target is extremely close then it only takes 4-5 ap (before perks/traits) At longer ranges the grenades take up more AP. Seems realistic, you have to throw harder to hit farther targets.

2.) Make greandes similar to rockets, only slightly more spammable, and shorter range to balance. Increase the current cost of ap enough so that you can only throw 2-3 grenades, but increase the damage to compensate (We don't want grenades useless, there needs to be some kind of use at least.)

3.) very simple increase to range, increase apcost by only 1-2

[Jeoshua]

I think they'd be very easilly fixed by upping the AP cost.  Throwing 5 grenades in the span of time it takes others to pull the trigger twice is absurd

[Admiral Zombie]

I think they'd be very easilly fixed by upping the AP cost.  Throwing 5 grenades in the span of time it takes others to pull the trigger twice is absurd

What? I think you're EXTREMELY out of line here.

I'm assuming "pulling the trigger twice" means attacking twice, because the only other alternatives are so absurd that i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Most burst builds can burst twice (even 3 times i think with double jet? Not sure) snipers can do aimed shots so they have that advantage. Besides its not simply "how many times can i attack" but rather how effective are those attacks combined with how fast those attacks can come. Whats absurd isn't simpyl that i can throw a lot of grenades (comparatively i could punch someone 5 times, as regular punchs with the perk cost only 2ap i believe). Whats absurd is that each of these attacks have the knockdown effect and can keep people on the ground almost perpetually once i do get in range.

To do only an nerf to grenade's AP cost is absurd, as it will simply remove grenadiers entirely (Because at that point it would be better to simply go rockets probably) If grenades do need to be changed, then they need to be changed in such a way that they're still of use actually in comparison to other builds.

[Solar]

Don't think anything is wrong with grenades as they are "out of the box". But low AP attacks which can benefit from Fast Shot/BRoF get huge bonuses. At least one of these (Fast Shot) won't be applicable to Grenades after a perk rework. In fact a lot of weapons won't benefit from Fast Shot, since a lot of weapons pay no penalty for it and this is not how Traits work.

[vedaras]

everything is fine, and im waiting for dynacords to come into game ^^

p.s. most popular skill now is small guns, and all i see in suggestion topic is small gunners whining of being defeated by other guns, stop it already dudes.

[Imprezobus]

does it mean that fastshoot wont cooperate with burst mode?
hell no (unless I get AP needler )

[Solar]

Benefit  1 less AP required for throwing and gun attacks. 
Penalty  Unable to aim attacks. 

Anything that doesn't have the penalty shouldn't have the benefit and you can't aim a burst.

[vedaras]

Don't think anything is wrong with grenades as they are "out of the box". But low AP attacks which can benefit from Fast Shot/BRoF get huge bonuses. At least one of these (Fast Shot) won't be applicable to Grenades after a perk rework. In fact a lot of weapons won't benefit from Fast Shot, since a lot of weapons pay no penalty for it and this is not how Traits work.

and you are very wrong in here, traits have minuses and bonuses but if you find a way not to be effected by its minuses then you are doing a good job, i see nothing wrong in that and its the purpose of this trait. Maybe you should think about making "small frame" to lower you agility if you are not overweight, since then it will give only 1 free stat point, also heavy handed should add +4 damage only to critical hits, because if hit is not critical then you get +4 free damage, fast metabolism should heal you with +2 rate only if you are radiated or poisoned and finesse should add +10 critical chance only to those hits who doesnt bypass armor, i talk serious now, you take all traits for their strong side to be used, not the weak one and you are willing to make minigunners aim? wtf? Then give big guns ability to aim on burst else i would find this fast shot changing thing as demotivating to play not increasing balance or anything.

P.s. other thing i cant believe is that with each grenade you throw 100-210 caps (depends if frag or plasma) with each rocket you fire 300-500 caps, while things like miniguns are caps wasting machines, and you are considering how to nerf these expensive weapons again and again and again, but such cheap weapons as sniper rifles dont even have something like scoped range perk, wtf? You are starting to balance things from wrong side...

[Surf]

and you are very wrong in here, traits have minuses and bonuses but if you find a way not to be effected by its minuses then you are doing a good job, i see nothing wrong in that and its the purpose of this trait.

You ain't doing a good job, you just dodge the negative side effects then.
If a trait only gives bonusses and no minusses then it becomes obsolet and needs reworking.

[vedaras]

You ain't doing a good job, you just dodge the negative side effects then.
If a trait only gives bonusses and no minusses then it becomes obsolet and needs reworking.

so make all traits as i wrote before.... because they all benefit you in way you take them... thats the purpose of those traits to benefit you, not to make you loser? You want all people not to take traits at all? good luck with that kinda game, then i prefer f2 singleplayer :>

[Solar]

Obviously some perks need changing in addition to Fast Shot. Fast Shot on burst weapons and grenades is not cleverly avoiding the minuses, because those weapons have no minuses at all from this trait.

[vedaras]

Obviously some perks need changing in addition to Fast Shot. Fast Shot on burst weapons and grenades is not cleverly avoiding the minuses, because those weapons have no minuses at all from this trait.

well i can just quite myself "Maybe you should think about making "small frame" to lower you agility if you are not overweight, since then it will give only 1 free stat point, also heavy handed should add +4 damage only to critical hits, because if hit is not critical then you get +4 free damage, fast metabolism should heal you with +2 rate only if you are radiated or poisoned and finesse should add +10 critical chance only to those hits who doesnt bypass armor".

Also i should add then that good natured should give you -60% to the gun skill you have tagged not -10% to all gun skills, thats the balance!