Wasn't it nerfed by devs because it was super easy to chain stun and kill anyone with plasma nades?
I don't think grenades were nerfed, were they? I know frag grenades were nerfed down to 5 per production (as opposed to 10). I believe plasma grenades are the same at 10 per production. Beyond that were they nerfed?
Beyond that quick question lets avoid threadjacking, and save the discussion of grenades by themselves for another thread elsewhere.
On topicThe original question was the the difficulty of fighting against sneak characters, in particular big guns and grenadiers. Many of the problems of big guns and grenades is the requirement to be relatively close to your target (with the exception of rockets. Miniguns are best at close range, but can do something at longer ranges than greandes)
The advantage of sneaking is that your target must be within a relatively close range, which gives you a massive advantage in regards to grenades/big guns. Where normally your target would see you at a good distance you now have an opponent appearing within about 5-15 hexes with a big surprise. I think the question is how to handle sneaking.
There seems to be 2 main purposes people seem to have have in mind for sneaking. Some believe it should be purely for scouting, others believe it should be ambushing. The advantage of ambushing is very strong, as it should give an advantage.
The question is if this advantage is too strong, and if it is too strong, how can we nerf it?One could either nerf how close people can get with sneak. This is the simplest idea, however nerfing/buffing sneak is an extremely fickle thing. Sneak strikes me as something that nerf even slightly, and it becomes useless. Buff even slightly, and its way overpowered. Because we can spend years trying to find the sweetspot that may not even exist, it would probably be better to nerf/buff sneak in other ways. I don't know what to do, so i'll just throw a handful of possibilities out there that may be picked up, considered, or inspire others.
1.) Limiting the mobility of sneaker characters. This would remove the ability to scout easily, and would turn sneakers more into watchguards for an area. Conversely people can guess where sneakers may hide (Much easier to hide behind something, if people keep their distance and stay in the open then they have a slightly better chance. This does not seem like a good system, but its mainly an idea that could inspire others.
2.) Providing a means for people to find sneakers. This method would preferably slow people down, but would reward those who are slow but cautious. Possibly give more of a reward to those with higher PE (7-10), but in order to avoid overnerfing sneak by making it harder for those with less PE(1-6).
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Subsolution: A simple solution would be to change the minimum 3 range system. Currently you can guarantee see people within 3 hexes. The sneak formula determines how far away you can be before someone sees you, but the idea is that if the sneak is far to high, the 3 hex range trumps the sneak formula.The change would be to have the sneak formula determine the minimum range and then PE/2 = bonus on top of that. Lets say i have enough sneak that I could be 2 hexes away before the person sees me. This person has 6 PE. Now with the current system the person would see me at 3hexes, even though presumably i could be within 2. With the new proposed system it would be 2, + PE/2, which is 3, so i would see the person within 5 hexes instead. If the person has 10PE, then it would 2 + 5, and i would see the person within 7 hexes. This is a straight nerf, so i'm skeptical. Its a start however, and maybe sneak could be buffed in other areas to compensate.
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Subsolution: Make Outdoorsman a "search" skill that you can activate, much like you would activate other skills such as science/sneak/steal/etc. You can only walk while in "search" mod, and the bonus only applies directly in front of you (possibly to the sides, purely details to be finalized later though). This would allow people who are very careful and meticulous to have an advantage if they're willing to take the time to do so. Sneakers still have the option of playing cat and mouse, they simply have to move more and stay behind their target, or stay where the person wouldn't be able to find them as easily (behind buildings)
