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PvP constitution proposal vote

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Lordus:

--- Quote from: Hololasima on May 08, 2010, 07:57:43 pm ---I am only surprised why PvP players dont post some reaction on this. Sorry, but seriously, right now two mens(First dont play and second is mostly PvE player) trying make game what they want.

--- End quote ---

 Holo, i always had a respect of you. But now, i am thinking that i will have to make a little change.

 I know, you know it and almost everyone from VSB too, that PvP is totaly unbalanced[/color]. I was always listen crying Johnny about instakills (in second era), when they were eliminated (3rd era) i heard that knocks are ruining the game, because some sniper hold Johnny's biggunner pvp build on ground until he killed him. You, Hololasima, were wery angry when you did realize, that your laser sniper was useless in third era, and you create BG then. In this era, you were posting suggestion about sneak, because it was too overpowered,..

 Only 6 guns are now useable in PvP[/color]. 4 of them (both miniguns, lsw, rocket launcher) belongs to BG class. Sniper rifle in sniper class, and laser rifle in EW class. Other dozens of guns are unused because they are too weak. They cant do so much big damage like BG or they cant do hight critical damage on long ranges. THIS IS FACT[/color] I explained why is this happening. (Single player problem definition).

 So if we want to make PvP that Fallout deserves, we need to make changes. Sorry if i am telling you the truth, but this PvP tactic possibilites are funny in comparsion if modern games or even old ones. One era PvP wons more players with BG 3x burst build, another era sniper with instakill, then BG, then SG. Almost one year of balancing and we are in the circle.

 There were many players realizing this (others than me and VSB), so they invested their time and they created suggestions about changes. But they failed. They failed because they ignore global view on this problem and they failed because they dont involve other players into the solution of this.[/color]

 So i had an idea. CREATE NOT SUGGESTION, BUT PROCESS, WITH PRE DEFINE STAGES[/color], that will allow to EVERYONE TO JOIN THiS PROCESS,[/color] but with some STAGES[/color], just because if we want to achieve our goal, we have not to go back after week or month of work.

 First stage was this: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4205.0 PvP balancing, part 0., part 1., PvP Constitution . I described there what i described personaly to you and i put there a request that i hope people will join this process.
  
 NOBODY from VSB, except Sius, put anything to this process[/color]. I made another post, where i was little disapointed with this. You Hololasima, had a chance to post your opinion there, but you did not.

 Then i made an election about this. The majority agreed with the result of our Constitution.[/color] I repeat, the majority. I dont know if you were voting, but you had a choice!!!!! (In our country, there will be soon Parliament election, so please, dont be disapointed to the result, if you dont vote there).
 
 So we create the Constitution, only Abstract ideas about game itself[/color], and the process went to send stage.

 In this stage n.2, EVERYONE is ALLOWED to put here your ideas, but that ideas have to be COMPATIBLE with Constitution[/color], because, we dont want to be in circle, like i described before.

 So if you dont understand Holo, YOU HOLO, and YOU VEDARAS, you are very welcome and i hope you will join this process.[/color] But like in real world, there are kind of people, only with negative aproach: "I dont like this, this sucks, you sucks, this is retarded, -1 Lordus,...", but this kind of aproach/people NEVER created something.[/color] So if you dont like our suggestions, put here your another ideas, compatible with the majority liked PvP constitution, or wait, until there will be final vote.

 IMO, you Vedaras and you Holo, Johnny, were first thinking, that this process will not have a succes. So you did not care. Why i have to care, i am only Betatester of this project, my n.1 duty is to enjoy my time, not to help developers (sarcasm end). Then you realized, that this process involved more players, interesetd in this game, in PvP, ... so you overreacted. You know, Holo, what me and you and other players from VSB thinks about Vedaras and his ideas (dont take it personal Vedaras). You and me had experienced from many PvP combats and we dont like someone who is ruining this PvP without experience with PvP itself. But i realized, that this current game concept is very flat. One char better to long range, one to close range, thats all (because of Single player problem definition). This is even worse than stone-scissors-paper idea. So i am trying to make something with this. You are not.

 Edited by Lordus, the color rainbow is disabled now :)
 

Sius:
And here is the core of the problem. Players and their objectivity. All you can see Holo is the guy who does not play and guy who does PvE. But one does not have to be king of the hill to notice that combat need changes. And everyone can post their ideas and suggestions how to improve things. So far everyone tried to post mostly hotfixes through nerf/boost "solutions" and as you can see its like on the rollercoaster. In one patch we remove instakills. With another we get them back and so on. This is not the way to go. So I believe that Lordus is fighting a good fight here when he is trying to think out of the box. Thats what I miss on current development. Perspective.
So when someone as crabbed as you or Vederas gets here and start judging people (and their ideas/suggestions) then I'm sorry but you are acting like blinded fool. You may see inactive or PvE guys talking about PvP here but its two-edged weapon. In your posts I see shortsighted player that lacks perspective and objectivity. I've worked few years as an admin in once upon a time large gaming community and my job was to be objective and solve other peoples problems. So I consider myself kinda open minded and objective person. And I think the same about Lordus or avv and I doubt they are doing all of this just to profit from it as players if its ever going to be implemented.

And as for the "never going to happen" or "not Fallouty" wannabe arguments then really you should listen to moderators. FOnline is MMORPG if you have not noticed. That fact itself makes out of it something so fucking badly not Fallouty that "not Fallouty" argument sounds next to that like someone puke words. Its based on game we love but it can't be the same. It could be if FOnline is Fallout 1/2 coop but not as MMO. If it ever wants to be working and entertaining game then it must develop its own way how to deal with problems and shut everything down just because its "not Fallouty" (and its not Fallouty since it has not appeared in original games) can come only from really but really ignorant people. I dunno maybe horses are not Fallouty, maybe teleporters or phasers are not Fallouty but using "not Fallouty" argument to shush suggestions? People really wake up.


Anyway I would like to ask moderators to delete any post that does not have anything to add to topic that is being discussed here (including this post). So if there is any moderator around, please delete+modify posts to keep this topic flame free.


EDIT by Surf Solar: Done.

Lordus:
I will try to entice players into this process by another way.

 How do i imagine the future pvp? I will start with example.

 I am part of small gang, but with periodical playing temates. So i know, that strategicaly i am unable to control many cities, maybe one is too much for us, but i know, that i can enjoy PvP too. Because we are crafting, trading etc., we have variety of resources and guns and armors, so we can choose best equipment for every combat situarion.

 In the time of PvP, i notice, that there are enemies in city. It is well known, powerfull gang with many members. In the city, there are at least 5 biggunners (3 miniguns, 2 LSW), two snipers (SG or EW) and rest of them (5) are assault rifles classes. Because they have to captur the city now, they need to wait there and protect it.

 Ok, i know  that direct attack will be suicide for our 5 players ready to fight team. So what is our choices?

 We know, that they have to wait there until they will capture the city, so we know, that they will not have a chance to change their weapons. So we will take our PvP chars and equip them into night fight.

 At night (ingame), perception of all players is reduced by (-2), so all of us will try to equip guns with night vision, so the reduction will be only (-1). Biggunners are unable to take nighvision to their weapons, because they are unable to put the minigun night vision cross hair to near their eyes, because they dont have cross hair, they dont need it.

 Enemy snipers are equiped with variable telescope sight, so they have quite bigger range of fire distance than without it (15-50 hex, instead of 20-50 hex), but this kind of telescope sight is not compatible with night sight variant, that our snipers will be equiped.

 Also, enemies are expecting bigger enemy forces, so their assault riffles players are without night sight, but they are equiped with attached grenade launcher.

 This special kind of grenade launcher has 2 kind of ammo: every types does moderate damage, one has very reducing enemy armor ability (it will almost destroy enemy defence armor ability), but does damage only to one enemy. Other kind has not ability to damage enemy armor, but has splash effect, so it does damage few hexes around hitted targed (even friendly damage). You can load this attached GL only with 1 grenade, reloading another takes to many time (8 ap), so you are not able to reload it in direct fight again. Also, nades are quite heavy, so you dont have many in your equipment. We are expecting, they have splash damage grenades.

 Because we know our enemies and their tactic, we know that they are often standing close together, especially at night, because this helps to reduce the chance of "hits from nowhere (cant see the source of the hit)". Because of this, one of our small gunner takes personal grenade launcher.

 This kind of weapon does very unconsistent damage. You can fire it at one target, but it will not 100% hit him, even if you have 95% percent of chance to hit. But you are able to shot 3 splash damage nades in one burst near the target, so it has area damage.

So we enter the city in one direction and at night.

We have one pure sniper char.

  Sniper char is able to make instakill, but he need to use special one attack. This attack requires this:
 1) sniper rifle (or at least hunting, laser rifle)
 2) aim with special attack to enemy eyes
 3) enemy have to stand in front of you in distance of 20-50 hexes (i have not my variable telescope sight, but night vision)
 4) attack .. when you push this, your target have to not move for 2,5 second (half time of AP reloading time, i think). Your AP points will substract from 8 AP, and when they reach 4 AP (or half of the required amount of AP you need to use eyeshot), your gun will fire. This kind of attack will be instakill (or at least high chance of instakill). If your enemy will move, rotate (so you wll not aim to his eyes), your shot will be aimed at the different body part (head, or torso). If somebody will shot you during your instakill fight, you will missed.
 
 // or another way, if you have sniper rifle in your active slot, or change your weapons to slot with sniper rifle, you AP will be zero and they will refresh up only when you are standing still, so you need little time to aim//

 5) you can also use classic shot (even eyeshot), like current (eye)shots, but it will never make instakill, even if you hit eye

So we killed one player (sniper with non night vision). At the same moment, our GL smallgunner shot burst of 3 splash damage granades into the group of enemies. Nobody will die, everyone is ligthly damaged, but one of them has crippled leg, so he is unable to counter attack for a moment.

At this moment, enemies realized that they are under attack, they identificate the way from where attack started and they rushed.

 But we were quite prepared, our Demoexpert, planted radio controled mines near the corner of expected enemy attack.

 This mines are exploding by pushing the button, but there is limitation. You are allowed to plant maximaly 3 bombs at same time, and all of them will explode at one time. 3 of them at one place are enough to kill one player, but demoexpert must stay in contact with bombs (50? hex), or he will not be able to use them. They are armed only if they are placed on ground, they can be destroyed by nades or burst, and because they are connected with Pip boy radio transmiter, only demoexpert could use them. Also, there exist counter measure.. it is kind of jammer. If you are in the location, or over the location (on world map) and you see planted radio mines, you can turn on the jammer. The jammer will for some time checking the radio frequency, and after some time, it will 100% find all frequencies of deployed radio mines. Then you will have a choice, explode it (all of them) in one time, or jamm the owners radio controler so they will be unable to explode (if you are continue in jamming, if you die, and mines are still there, the owner will be able to control them again). More skill in traps, more time enemy needs to find the frequency, and of course, more skill in traps, less time i will need to fing the enemy frequency. But limit should be cca 2-3 minutes. So it will be unable to block the entrances by mines (if you will have enough demoexperts), but you will be able to block some space for short time or prepare the trap.


 Enemy does expected this kind of trap, so they fire there one nade from attached GL.. it destroys 2 radio mines, but 3rd exploded and criplled enemy leg, so he was unable to rush.

 (exploding guns have generaly bigger chance to cripple than to kill (if you have at least some unbroken armor on yourself), so if you have combat medic with doctors bag, you can heal your mates quickly and they are able to continue in fight.)
 
But their huge counter attack continues, we are moving to north of the city, to hide near buildings. But one of us, smalgunner with P90 with attached noice absorber is sneaking at toilet and their rush wave did not noticed him.

 His P90 with attached noice absorber allows him to shoot burst for little less distance, than this gun is originaly designed, but with ability to stay in sneak after burst (75 percent after first burst, 75 after second, .. so he has total chance of 50 percent after two bursts to stay in sneak (75 + his luck)).

 He waits until the wave is gone and then he attack in sneak the injured one, he kill him, stay in sneak and then he tries to find enemy sniper. Enemy sniper is defenceless until he will change his weapon. He changes to desert eagle, when he see enemy sneaker. He shoots one eyeshot, he succed, but 2 bursts from enemy P90 and one grenade is killing him.


 Reloading the weapon should (generaly, but with exception) take more time than changing active slot and use secondary weapon.

Enemy rush continues, we are shoting at longer distances, because we have night vision, but than five of their biggunners rush our team, and because they have unbalanced weapons, they run to our position, 3x burst us on 40 hex distance with their avengers and they killed us. End of tactic story.

 :P

avv:
Yeh pvp would totally need some more strategic features the way you described it Lordus. Maybe not completely like that, but I do agree with the sniper aiming delay. We can add all sorts of cool gadgets like nightvision, silencers and jammers later. It can be hard to hold our horses when it comes to inventing new things. Let's still just keep it to the basics and try not get too carried away.

So the subject is still balance. It includes characters and weapons both. Let's try to outline some basic principles for character balance, lock them and move forward.

So question is: how are we going to make it so that every character has equal chances to pvp effectively? Problems which this goal faces are too high potentials in skills, too high potential to be good or bad at something and unbalanced perks.

I've wrote this things earlier but I'll write them again. Characters can be absolute monsters in pvp or total losers. A character can have 3 actions points and very low hitpoints. Nobody wants to play this kind of character. Some perks are obviously pvp related, others are not but don't give good enough tradeoff.

So what should be done is that character build only determines what your economic source will be and how you will fight. Not how good you will be in getting your money and defeating your enemies, that's when your own skills step in.

Skills and stats would unlock perks. Skills would mainly unlock perks and profesions, weapon skills wouldn't affect accuracy because in the end your accuracy will be determined by your weapon, range, enviroment and armors. Profesion related skills would still determine chance of success because healing another player cannot be made dependent on player's skills.
Stats would give some passive character propertiers like now, except that their worst values should be changed. Nobody wants to play combat char with en1 or agi1. Pe1 is very bad aswell. So we gotta have minimum possible ap, hp and field of view. And perks unlockable with stat ammounts of 1,2,3,4 and 5, not just over five like it is now. This prevents players from just dumping stats they don't need.

Let's try to nail these character issues, then we could move onward to weapons and lock the balance chapter.

Johnny Nuclear:
ahh now i know why there arent any posts by PvP players, its because solar deleted it all.  ;D ;D

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