Other > General Game Discussion
Future pvp theme
avv:
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 05:44:08 PM ---You really have some kind of a syndrome to always try to be right and find flaws on peoples opinions.
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It looks like you were editing your message while I was writing mine. Don't blame me.
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 05:44:08 PM ---Big guns have med range, cost alotmof ap to fire, reduced to hit value at short range
Smg sized weapons have short range and cost less ap to fire
Sniper weapons have very long range, cost alot of ap to fire, have highly reduced to hit value on short ranges becouse of scope.
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Sounds alright for starters. There's just one thing that will trouble big gunners: lack of variety. They got only flamer and improved flamer for close range, small gunners got various shotguns and smgs. Big gunners got only rocket for long range, sg got all kinds of guns with long range. It's much more fun to play sg because of so many guns to choose from. But I guess that's less harmful than having current pvp. Energy weapons are completely differend story, unless the skill was scrapped and energy guns were split in big and small guns.
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 05:44:08 PM ---So really the classes will solve nothing.
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Classes are out of question like Solar said.
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 05:44:08 PM ---We also need overhaul on AC, becouse why the hell does anykind of armor make you less likely to get hit?
AC should be very high on guys with no armor. And guys in Power Armor should have no AC at all.
Armor should only affect in DR only. This would also make hand to hand builds viable.
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AC doesn't make you less likely to hit, but it renders some hits useless because they bounce off the armor. It's just that fallout combat doesn't have specific note when the hit is bounced off or just dodged.
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 05:44:08 PM ---After all things can be solved more easily than just making dreams of complicated and "balanced" systems.
PVP will never be extremely well balanced. Not in any world. There is too many modifiers to actually make things balanced.
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It's better to dream of balanced than unbalanced system.
iicca:
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 06:22:09 PM ---Sounds alright for starters. There's just one thing that will trouble big gunners: lack of variety. They got only flamer and improved flamer for close range, small gunners got various shotguns and smgs. Big gunners got only rocket for long range, sg got all kinds of guns with long range. It's much more fun to play sg because of so many guns to choose from. But I guess that's less harmful than having current pvp. Energy weapons are completely differend story, unless the skill was scrapped and energy guns were split in big and small guns.
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Variety is not a problem after 3d models are in.
Crafting energy weapons needs EW and Science, when small guns for example needs SG, Repair and Science. Doesn't make any sense to me.
We could also make EW a special weapon type, becouse they are rare! or at least should be. They could be linked to SG and BG. For example
Plasma rifle would need BG with EW, Laser pistol would need SG with EW. So you could only specialize in one kind of EW's. Also the explanation for them needing two combat skills to use would be that they are Xeno and new technology.
More balance suggestions on power builds.
Reasons we have powerbuilds are that Charisma is an unneeded stat. I don't want to play without ch 3, becouse i don't like alting. But all powerbuilds drop charisma. I suggest that charisma drop should be more lethal game wise. You couldn't enter Vault city becouse you look
too similiar to ghoul for example. To join a faction you need to have enough charisma? There is plenty of things you can do to start people
actually think do they really wanna play with CH1. Taking intelligence 1-4 is really painful, i tried to play hand to hand guy with that but I hated that my character was an incarnation of Forest Gump. It's only psychological but made me wanna redo my character.
Here is another idea.
4th tag skill. Really shuffles the deck. Then you could actually take 1 combat skill, 2 for crafting and 1 for support. Just an idea, it would need to be tweaked to overall skillpoint gain but anyways. It's something to think of.
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 06:22:09 PM ---It's better to dream of balanced than unbalanced system.
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Yeah, but it's useless. You could instead start working on something that could be actually made.
Vedaras once said. PVP needs balancing not remaking. I think that is a good point.
Colombo:
I think, that we have to go this way:
1. How we want to play PvP?
2. Which (not classes) roles should character play in battle? (now, we have BG burster, maybe SG burster, Granate thrower and EW+SG snipers)
3. How to make variety between those chars?
a) more perks that support our kind of roles, maybe tree-like, lower perks would support 3 roles a bit, mid perk would support 2 roles more and high perk would support one role much more
b), with weapons that support our kinds of roles
3. balancing and altering scenery to support rethinked way of PvP
avv:
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 06:46:13 PM ---Variety is not a problem after 3d models are in.
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I was just thinking if it's easier to either change the rules so that no new models are required. But if making new models is faster, then it's the way to go. We should choose the path that takes least work because both are working.
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 06:46:13 PM ---Crafting energy weapons needs EW and Science, when small guns for example needs SG, Repair and Science. Doesn't make any sense to me.
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That's a minor issue. For example doctor and armorer take much bigger chunk of your pvp efficiency. But our pvp system shouldn't punish anyone severly for deciding not to put all of the skillpoints on combat related skills.
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 06:46:13 PM ---We could also make EW a special weapon type, becouse they are rare! or at least should be. They could be linked to SG and BG. For example
Plasma rifle would need BG with EW, Laser pistol would need SG with EW. So you could only specialize in one kind of EW's. Also the explanation for them needing two combat skills to use would be that they are Xeno and new technology.
--- End quote ---
Yeh ew should be rare for sure, restricted even.
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 06:46:13 PM ---Reasons we have powerbuilds are that Charisma is an unneeded stat. I don't want to play without ch 3, becouse i don't like alting. But all powerbuilds drop charisma. I suggest that charisma drop should be more lethal game wise. You couldn't enter Vault city becouse you look
too similiar to ghoul for example. To join a faction you need to have enough charisma? There is plenty of things you can do to start people
actually think do they really wanna play with CH1. Taking intelligence 1-4 is really painful, i tried to play hand to hand guy with that but I hated that my character was an incarnation of Forest Gump. It's only psychological but made me wanna redo my character.
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Not only charisma, but the fact that crafting related skill can be dumped to another character and the pvp dude can just concentrate all skills on fighting. These are know facts but nerfing charisma even more isn't helping. That's because pvp powerbuilds don't even enter safe towns or involve in charisma related actions, they are only taken when fighting char is needed.
It's actually pretty long hike to end the reign of alts and powerbuilds. First thing that comes to mind is that player is required to perform fighting tasks to get his hands on best crafting recipes, but that's another story and completely beyond the topic of this thread. What we can discuss is how to reduce the effectiveness of pvp builds by making a reasonable pvp theme. This is done by lowering the potential of pvp builds' damage output and resistance so that you cannot spend all your skillpoints and perk slots on fighting related abilities. For example top gun skill is 200 and that's that, spend your skillpoints on something else.
In addition players must be prevented from making too bad builds. Who's going to want to play a char with 3 ap?
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 06:46:13 PM ---Vedaras once said. PVP needs balancing not remaking. I think that is a good point.
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Since when has Vederas been some pvp guru ;D Lol, totally no offense to Vederas, I'm no guru myself or anything. Well our pvp is in pretty awful state so balancing it might bear the similarities with remaking, but we can call it what we like.
Badger:
On the topic of Charisma:
One very extreme idea I'd suggest is stopping characters with 1-2 charisma from joining parties. If you build your character like a loner, then you have to be one. I don't see why you should make the 'social' stat rock bottom and expect to be able to group up with other players.
A slightly milder idea is rewarding people for taking more charisma instead of punishing them for taking low charisma.
The obvious way to do this is giving everyone opportunities to obtain NPC followers (ones you don't have to pay for), and making NPC followers more durable. When I play Fallout 2, I probably only kill 40% of the critters myself - the rest is taken care of by my NPCs. We could go further than this, and add Medic NPCs, Outdoorsmen, and so on.
Being able to have F2 style companions that could actually level up would be perfect. Ones that respawn, start out crappy, but eventually become very powerful. And hey, maybe we could even give them personalities.
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