Other > General Game Discussion
Future pvp theme
Colombo:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on April 18, 2010, 02:29:58 PM ---Well, that's why it has to be a large AC bonus, along the lines of 30 or even 50. And if someone wants to make a dedicated sniper to remove opponents from behind obstacles 50 hexes away, by all means let him max his SG up to 300.
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Yeah. And the one with 120 would hit nothing at all. So players had to minmax again.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 02:30:05 PM ---How to recognize your opponent? Surely it would be easy solution to just blast everybody with p90 that comes across unsafe mine or wasteland, but surely we players should be allowed to choose between right and wrong. You could say it's a matter of survival and name of the game to shoot everyone just in case, but then best way to survive is to avoid fights.
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Just know them by names ;D No, seriously, namecolorizing is good enough, I think that making it any easier would spoil the suspense factor for some people (including me). I just love how tense some encounters can get when both players meet in unexpected circumstances and aren't really sure whether they want to shoot first or not and are pondering how to get out of the situation without risking too much. Definitely some of the best moments I've had with the game.
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 02:30:05 PM ---This big guns dude could be first of all decent fist fighter due to his strength and everyone with ability to use a gun, should have at least some ability to use all guns in general. So this big gunner would prefer shotguns and smgs when he's not providing support fire for his squad. Assault rifles should be jacks of all trades and suitable for all, just like ak47 is the ultimate all rounder.
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Hm, I'd much rather see the LSW and perhaps M-60 usable almost as immediately as the assault rifle. I mean it's not even that unrealistic, you could very well shoot SAW type weapons from the hip or from the shoulder while standing in CQB. You're not going to be as accurate as with a rifle, but it's already modeled in the game I guess.
--- Quote from: Colombo on April 18, 2010, 02:44:41 PM ---Yeah. And the one with 120 would hit nothing at all. So players had to minmax again.
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120 is awfully low. 180 is the minimum if you want to fight and I don't see anything wrong with that - it's not that many skill points anyway. You could easily get 180+ SG and max another skill to 300 with 10 INT skilled.
Frosti:
First post
--- Quote ---This thread is about what direction and basics our pvp system should include
--- End quote ---
For now PvP in FOnline 2238 is "1 shot". You die in 1-3 shots from PvP power builds. Many players like this, and many players do not like this. And looks like this will stay 1 shot style.
I myself dont like 1 shot style PvP. In my opinion demage from weapons should be completly changed, lowered demage, critical damage nerfed, ammo type vs armor type should be very important.
There should be one battle mode ( not mixed real time/turn based) with reduced to minimum player dextarity needed to battle ( no running and gunning to avaid demage) and more depended on your character statistics and tactical move like in pure turn based mode.
As said many times before Fallout critical hits and weapons was not meant to used aganist other players. Game model was not made for 'real time' mode as it is in FOnline - this leads to disbalance in game mechanic.
This is how I would see FOnline. PvP as it is now with "1 shot" is liked by some players and good for them. However if there would be initiative annouced on forum for testing rebalanced weapons and criticals I would take part in them.
avv:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on April 18, 2010, 02:49:49 PM ---Just know them by names ;D No, seriously, namecolorizing is good enough, I think that making it any easier would spoil the suspense factor for some people (including me). I just love how tense some encounters can get when both players meet in unexpected circumstances and aren't really sure whether they want to shoot first or not and are pondering how to get out of the situation without risking too much. Definitely some of the best moments I've had with the game.
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I know what you mean, and there's nothing like re-match with red tagged dude because he no longer gets the advantage of surprise. However there's no way to keep up with all playerkillers and give them justice. A bad dude always gets the first shot when he meets a nice guy. On the other hand we're discussing here how to make combat less dependent on first strike, so it could be fixed on its own.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on April 18, 2010, 02:49:49 PM ---Hm, I'd much rather see the LSW and perhaps M-60 usable almost as immediately as the assault rifle. I mean it's not even that unrealistic, you could very well shoot SAW type weapons from the hip or from the shoulder while standing in CQB. You're not going to be as accurate as with a rifle, but it's already modeled in the game I guess.
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But then we'd face the same problem as fallout tactics had: big guns outgunned smallguns in late game. Because shots were launched immediately when enemy was spotted, a m60 was always better in everything than ak47. It was sad because all those shotguns and low tier smallguns were cool. This means that small guns would be good only in sniping and big guns would dominate close range.
Here's a sligthly off topic point of view:
Israelis had advantage over soldiers of Egypt in six day war (or was it yom kippur, shit can't remember) because Israelis had uzis and egypt had ak47. When assaulting bunkers being able to turn your gun fast held important role. Since uzi was closer to your body, it was faster to turn and it outmatched ak47 in close quarters.
Also imagine Tunnel Rats in vietnam with m60. They used pistols and knives for a reason.
Either big gun dudes are stuck with their long guns and do good only in the open, or they can use some small guns too when situation demands or we stick to the current way where big guns just dominate close range and that's that.
iicca:
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 12:31:40 PM ---Besides, you represented your Jagged Allience related idea below, which surely is unfalloutish in every way. So what you do is to draw your "unfalloutish" card when it suits you.
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You really have some kind of a syndrome to always try to be right and find flaws on peoples opinions. If you
actually would have read the text properly you would have noticed this:
--- Quote from: iicca on April 18, 2010, 11:43:59 AM --- But that is Jagged Alliance, I don't want fallout to be like that. Instead:
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So really you are not making a good picture of yourself to anyone.
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 12:31:40 PM --- Besides, where is it even stated that fonline must be faithful to some old role play game? What if someone brought up a superb idea that wasn't faithful to fallout, should we just scrap it because of that?
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"some old rpg" It's not some old rpg, It is GURPS and it's still played all over the world. You really don't have a clue what fallout is about.
Respect gone, forever.
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 12:31:40 PM ---Doesn't sound too bad honestly. So what you're saying is that shooting big guns cost less AP if you got lots of str. Striking with knife or shooting with pistol costs less if you got lots of AGI?
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Basically yes, but no. Read my post again, I don't want to repeat my self.
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 03:49:59 PM ---Either big gun dudes are stuck with their long guns and do good only in the open, or they can use some small guns too when situation demands or we stick to the current way where big guns just dominate close range and that's that.
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Forcing people to choose classes wont fix that you know?
Solution.
Big guns have med range, cost alotmof ap to fire, reduced to hit value at short range
Smg sized weapons have short range and cost less ap to fire
Sniper weapons have very long range, cost alot of ap to fire, have highly reduced to hit value on short ranges becouse of scope.
Now we have rock paper and scissors
Big guns dominate SMG's at med range and short
SMG's dominate Sniper weapons and big guns at short range
Sniper weapons dominate everyone at long range, but lack at short and medium range.
It wont be as simple as that, everything is weapon dependant but you get the point. When going with a party to some pvp you will always
need all kind of builds becouse none is more dominant in each situation. It is always possible that snipers will dominate open ground and
long streets. But Then short range weapons need to get smart and outmanouver the sniper. Big guns are there to do what they are ment to do. support. Everyone would have a role in pvp fights. It's realistic and increases the immersion of that you area actually usefull in something.
So really the classes will solve nothing.
We also need overhaul on AC, becouse why the hell does anykind of armor make you less likely to get hit?
AC should be very high on guys with no armor. And guys in Power Armor should have no AC at all.
Armor should only affect in DR only. This would also make hand to hand builds viable.
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After all things can be solved more easily than just making dreams of complicated and "balanced" systems.
PVP will never be extremely well balanced. Not in any world. There is too many modifiers to actually make things balanced.
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