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[avv]

You have to realize that A role-playing game is a games in which players take a roles of characters in a fictional setting. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. So by all means Fonline is an mmorpg and imo should be brought closer to the rpg than mmo.

You play the role of thief but it still doesn't have to mean that the character does all the thinking for you. You succeed if you outsmart your victim, not when your character outsmarts your victim's character. It's the basic of every succesful multiplayer game that more skilled player defeats less skilled player. It shouldn't be surprising at all.

Imo stealth system needs an overhaul but not so that it doesn't need a skill "steal". Skills are the soul and heart of Fallout games, and to achieve what you want needs a proper skill level. This game should be by all means character dependant with a player skill twist. Which only refers to common sense.

High skill levels deciding how succesful you are promote only powerbuilds. It takes about 500 skillpoints to cap a tagged skill. Skills are heart and soul of fallout because they were needed when competing against npc enemies. So by your logic if skills directly measured the effectiveness of a player's char, you could buy and sell items for higher or lower price when bartering with other players. Let's say you want to buy a 10mm pistol and someone asks you to buy 200 for it. But you happen to have low barter and he has high so you end up paying 10k caps for it. That's not even the end of it, someone with ch10, speech 300 and all speech related perks comes to you, says few words and makes you kill yourself because he's so good at convincing that life sucks. This is what happens when player's effectiveness is based purely on skill%.
If you want player skill twist to take place, then skill% cannot have major role in success, they would only decide what you can do, not how well.

[Pandemon]

+1 for idea to make pvp harder. Maybe not that way, but if crafting/mining/healing has cooldown why attacking hasn't?

[Ombra]

Thief is an hard work 
I don't have a thief alt, but I agree: the current kill-reputation system is completely senseless. Reduce it.

[Midnight]

There was cooldown in Fo2 too you only don't have the figures.

Anyway some cooldown are a bit too long yeah and some are a bit ridiculous (when you loot junks or flowers on the ground :/)
shooting have a cooldown too, it's your APs ... So ... cooldown are not stupid, they only need some tweaks like many other things.

Maybe cooldown depending on skills would be great, having high Str/End reduce time for mining. As an exemple.
Put a big cooldown on repair but make that you can use the skill with less than 200 % :/ and diminish the cooldown when you have more than 120% etc

If a bit of cooldown on thief offer an alt to the reputation why not? Not sure it will solve the whome problem but it could be a start.
And if there is one way to make thief have a brain when doing thievery, better than saying you insanities cause you can't do nothing against... i would be the first happy about a lower requirement for them too, cause it would be really fair, and more what some guys call role play.
A thief stealing you and saying "suck my dick" right in front of guard is something that bugs me. Where is the role here?

[Sius]

Yeah with vendors, you come to trade, someone tries to steal, you move a little and trade since thief is on cd.

noone steals in northern towns, and quests are kidna shitty in item reward in safe towns, so i do not agree about stealing in quests.

And no stealing is 100% risk (since you will always lose huge amounts of reputation no matter what will be stealing result) and no reward job (since even if you will steal something successfully you will be owned by guards). And is i said before, people can hold items in hands none stands in ncr with 30 ba 5 minuguns 1000 bullets and 50k caps in inventory. And i still see many ways to solve problem, make bigger cooldown for example, stealing with cooldown depending on skill, like former doctor skill, where you could reach something like 200 seconds cooldown with best skill. Then people wouldnt need to keep running from thieves. And its just one example how thievery problem could be easily solved.

Got to agree with this one. But I still think that 30-60 sec for 1 steal is just enough and imho cooldown should not exceed this scale. Anyway I'll once again remind myself with http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=2860.0 (few changes done) =>

- stealing should be weight/size based so small items like caps or ammo should be easy to steal
- Pickpocket perk should get really nerfed = without it you can steal only smaller stuff (caps/ammo...) and with it big stuff will be still risky even with higher skill (when you want something like CA or rifles then you have to risk getting caught)
- reputation should not decrease when you steal successfully
- reputation should decrease not per item stolen but only per unsuccessfu AND noticed steal
- reputation drop per noticed steal should not cross -100/200 reputation points and this number should decrease with higher CH/speach/steal/sneak skill (just pick one or combine them). I mean it should be possible to "talk your way out of it" even when you get caught. You would still be punished (= flagged and killed) and you would loose reputation just not that much (some -100 to -30 points depending on your speech or something like that).
- stealing should be boosted by sneaking since more "invisible" you are for your victims lesser the chance they will notice

So eventually when you steal, you risk and you risk even more when you try to steal something big and valuable. But in the end you should be able to steal smaller stuff without any problems but when you get caught you still risk getting killed by player or flagged by guard = karma drop. So when you steal too much without keeping an eye on your karma you will soon be disliked at that area making it even more risky to walk around there. But when you are really pro thief some smaller robberies should not be any problem for you if players themselves are not cautious enough to spot you.

[Midnight]

Actually sneak is useless with steal for the reason if someone see you steal but you are unoticed it change nothing.
But personnaly when i'm stolen by someone sneaking i don't notice anything, me the player and i don't check my inventory.

If there is a report system, you check your inventory, you see something missing you report the thievery, sneaking will be a really good help.

[iicca]

You play the role of thief but it still doesn't have to mean that the character does all the thinking for you. You succeed if you outsmart your victim, not when your character outsmarts your victim's character. It's the basic of every succesful multiplayer game that more skilled player defeats less skilled player. It shouldn't be surprising at all.

I can't really agree with you that making fonline a game like counterstrike would be a good thing. Basicly your argument is equal to zero, becouse you are suggesting that game should measure players skill. You want to rehaul the whole combat system? Right now it's all about charcter skill, it doesn't involve any player related skill other than moving around. The shooting itself isn't measured by players skill. Why should steal? And most of all, you need to think about the game engine and whats possible to do with it.

Don't take everything literally and you should try to widen your field of view becouse seems like you are walking eyes closed. This is fallout we are talking about, no counter-strike!

Maybe cooldown depending on skills would be great, having high Str/End reduce time for mining. As an exemple.
Put a big cooldown on repair but make that you can use the skill with less than 200 % :/ and diminish the cooldown when you have more than 120% etc

Yeah I agree on that totally it would make sense.

[bloody]

Now after wipe thief sucks, i have thief account-steal over 200, go to ncr, steal from one random guy 3 rippers and my reputation -4300, that totally sucks

[Sius]

Now after wipe thief sucks, i have thief account-steal over 200, go to ncr, steal from one random guy 3 rippers and my reputation -4300, that totally sucks

Its well known and devs want to change it. The point is how do they change it...

[Pandemon]

Its well known and devs want to change it. The point is how do they change it...

To sell an item you first have to have it in your inventory - then you have to wait until noone is anywhere near you to sell it. If anyone comes anywhere near you you then have to cancel and run away. Impractical.

To do a quest, you are reading text, you must go through several pages of text in sequence to solve this quest. You must interrupt each time someone comes anywhere near you, run away and then start all over again. Impractical.

Feature destroyer.

Stealing is low risk, high reward and in guarded cities there is nothing the victim can do but keep moving, which is increadibly inconvienient. The point of guarded cities is not to allow players to strip all items off players.

Are you sure devs want change it...? 

[FischiPiSti]

Stealing is low risk, high reward and in guarded cities there is nothing the victim can do but keep moving, which is increadibly inconvienient. The point of guarded cities is not to allow players to strip all items off players.

If your not in a guarded city how are they supposed to steal? You get shot 23 times first.

Again, a skill is beeing nerfed to the point that its useless, but players that dont read wiki, dont read forums, arent on irc are going to realize that they made a useless character when they allready leveled it up and lost hours/days of gameplay for nothing.
So much effort is beeing put to nerf skills, but it would so much more easyer for devs and players, to just disable the skill alltogether like the sex appeal trait, then this. Like you did with TB FA as a temporary solution untill you find one that good for thiefs and its victims.
In another thread i had an idea, what about this:
How about: Guards will allways see if someone steals, but do nothing unless he succeeds. If they fail, the players can kill them. IF they succeed, he gets a thief "tag", but not the old one. The new thief tag does not let players attack the thief, hower, guards intercept UNARMED(or with http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Club XD), and chase the thief out of the city shouting "STOP! THIEF!" He loses karma(but only to a certain minimum,like -1200), and when the thief has negativ karma that would otherwise result in instant death, they would rather chase him unarmed the second he steps in the city. He could sneak however, but high enough sneak+steal? Impossible. If the thief attacks anybody in the city, the thief tag is erased, thus guards kill him instantly.

- stealing should be weight/size based so small items like caps or ammo should be easy to steal

500.000 caps / steal? :S
How about if stealing would be skill dependant. You have 100 skill, you can steal a rope, because its worth 100 caps. Or you can steal 100 caps / steal. But with every attempt, you have the chance to be unsuccessful and lose karma :O

[avv]

I can't really agree with you that making fonline a game like counterstrike would be a good thing. Basicly your argument is equal to zero, becouse you are suggesting that game should measure players skill. You want to rehaul the whole combat system? Right now it's all about charcter skill, it doesn't involve any player related skill other than moving around. The shooting itself isn't measured by players skill. Why should steal? And most of all, you need to think about the game engine and whats possible to do with it.

Don't take everything literally and you should try to widen your field of view becouse seems like you are walking eyes closed. This is fallout we are talking about, no counter-strike!

Basically every succesful mmo game is based on players competing against each other, the game mechanics being their tools to victory. It's not only fps games, but also strategy games like starcraft and mmorpg games like wow. The stealing is currently partially skill based because you have to try get a victim that doesn't move around, trying to guess who's not going to move for a while takes skill but only a little. In pvp you have to understand to position and move your character smartly, even though pvp isn't enough skill related yet, it doesn't mean steal shouldn't be.

Besides, by skill I don't mean reflexes and aim, but understanding of game mechanics and trying to predict enemy's actions. This kind of skill can and should be included in fonline more, because it keeps players playing when they notice that their plans start to work and gaming experience is paying off. Otherwise it's just moving your character around and putting it into differend situations and just watching how it fares.
If 300 steal indeed meant that you could steal any item from anyone without much of a risk, people would flee from big cities and wouldn't come there unless with PE10. If players cannot counter something with skill, they counter it with another character. This kind of evolution is always seen in fonline when some build becomes dominant.

[Spoonman]

I think that people are looking at this issue from the wrong viewpoint.  People are thinking "what will make my gaming life better and easier" rather than "what would actually happen."

Yes, the wasteland is harsh.  But guarded cities on the wasteland do not = the wasteland.  If you get caught stealing in one of these cities you should be shot and set to a ridiculous reputation (like -4000) or something to them.  If the people living in the town were real they wouldn't just forgive you and let you back in after a few days.  They don't have the jailing capabilities or ability to "fine" you.  You should just die for your crimes.  You should also get a lesser reputation hit at all other "guarded" cities (maybe -100 or so), because, after all, caravans/traders/guards should "talk" to one another to share news.

However, if you get a successful steal, nothing bad should happen to you.  A successful steal means that you're able to take something from someone else without anyone noticing.  If no one notices, no penalty!  Like in real life, you should be wary of thieves if you're in a crowded market or on a busy subway.  If someone manages to steal your wallet and no one notices, well then tough shit for you.

[Sius]

I think that people are looking at this issue from the wrong viewpoint.  People are thinking "what will make my gaming life better and easier" rather than "what would actually happen."

Yes, the wasteland is harsh.  But guarded cities on the wasteland do not = the wasteland.  If you get caught stealing in one of these cities you should be shot and set to a ridiculous reputation (like -4000) or something to them.  If the people living in the town were real they wouldn't just forgive you and let you back in after a few days.  They don't have the jailing capabilities or ability to "fine" you.  You should just die for your crimes.  You should also get a lesser reputation hit at all other "guarded" cities (maybe -100 or so), because, after all, caravans/traders/guards should "talk" to one another to share news.

However, if you get a successful steal, nothing bad should happen to you.  A successful steal means that you're able to take something from someone else without anyone noticing.  If no one notices, no penalty!  Like in real life, you should be wary of thieves if you're in a crowded market or on a busy subway.  If someone manages to steal your wallet and no one notices, well then tough shit for you.

This guy has 0% speech, don't listen to him!

Ok now seriously. First of all that "if this was real" is the worst argument ever used to backup your game development suggestions (and I used it too and I feel that eternal pain awaits me for that).  Its nice if game copy reality but only there where it serves as a feature that brings fun and opportunities. If it should work as some of you want then we should be making suggestions for "Second Life: The Wasteland" edition and not FOnline. If this was like a real wasteland most people would give a shit about others being robbed even in "guarded" cities. And how the hell they should share such info with other factions? And why on Earth would other factions give a shit about some guy that tried to steal something in city that is half continent away from them? Mainly if this was like a real wasteland you would not respawn and thats it for this "argument".

If game features some skills and abilities then I suppose they are there to be used by players that desire it. And I'm pretty sure that devs are aware of that current stealing is useless. So I think its just a matter of time until we will find some steal boosting changelog.

[Badger]

If it should work as some of you want then we should be making suggestions for "Second Life: The Wasteland" edition and not FOnline

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct6csLNpmgM