Other > Suggestions

Primitive -> Rudimentary/Improvised

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Slaver Snipe:
I think it funny that you believe people thinking other cultures as primitive to be strictly European, most cultures believe/believed that theirs was superior to others not just Europeans, but I digress, Yes, rudimentary (synonym of primitive) and improvised could work in it's place but there is no reason for the change at all.  If someone makes a tool out of flint and wood they found lying around it is primitive, there is no reason to change primitive to use a word that means the EXACT same thing in that context.  If there is any negative connotation in the word that is perfectly fine due to the fact that if you were to have the choice between a chainsaw or said primitive tool, a negative connotation would and should be implied that the primitive tool is not as good at chopping down trees.

Whenever I hand craft something that I know I could get elsewhere and it would be superior I think of it as primitive so please don't try to say wastelanders wouldn't use that term because it somehow (in your mind) would be calling themselves similar to tribals for example if tribals don't mine and I use a primitive pick to do so, how does it make me similar to them or I craft a pipe rifle and tribals don't use guns.

If you truly want to nitpick I can too and say rudimentary can't be used because It also has more than one meaning for example Being in the earliest stages, If i make a rudimentary tool it COULD mean It is merely basic or I haven't finished making it.

Improvise couldn't be used either since it can also mean doing something with little preparation but making an improvised tool or workbench could take quite a bit of preparation.  All of this of course depends on which actual dictionary you choose as the basis for the meaning of the words.

I guess I'm just here to have a wall of text saying this suggestion is pointless and please stop your European bashing.  (Please don't deny it, you saying the meaning of primitive is a 19th century European creation, your example of a European culture considering another to have low intelligence because they can't speak their language)

Eternauta:
Slaver Snipe, have you not read the thread completely, or do you just want to misunderstand what I said?

The value judgment is something the Europeans had in their vision of other cultures during the 19th century... I am not bashing the Europeans, I am just saying where it came from.

Hell, in my country during the 19th century, some authors considered local indigenous people and rural people to be primitive, barbarian and inferior, I am not  saying it's in the Europeans' nature to discriminate, I am saying that European thought and science used to discriminate. These Argentineans who discriminated indigenous societies were readers of European thought.

In short, I am not saying "Europeans discriminate", I am saying "discrimination used to be present in European science during the 19th century and that is where the negative meaning, the value judgment in the word primitive comes from".

Oh and about what you said, about the word rudimentary, that's something that actually has to do with the discussion I wanted to bring up here, and I too think improvised would be a better choice for the Primitive Tool, not so sure thought about the Primitive Workbench, because, if I understand correctly, it actually is an inferior Workbench.

T-888:

--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 03:51:06 pm ---Crappy includes a value judgment too, but it's not a word that discriminates certain cultures, like primitive does. It could be used for that, but it needs a context: if a guy from the Fallout world said "this is a crappy tribal spear", he would be discriminating tribals, but if he just said "this is a crappy spear" he wouldn't, even if the spear was made by tribals.

--- End quote ---

"This is a primitive spear"

There is no indication that it is made by a tribal, it cannot discriminate a culture if it is not in a proper context.

"Black shotgun"

By your logic it is a word that can discriminate race and could not be used to indicate the color, because another word might be more appropriate to do it, that's your whole thought process on the subject and it is very ridiculous.

Like we would need to find another word how to call a Black shotgun, right? Dark, shotgun? But then again, dark doesn't really cache essence, because it is associated by light, not by color etc. etc.

;D

Black shotgun is a shotgun of color black and a primitive tool, is just a tool of primitive kind.


--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 03:51:06 pm ---That is exactly why I think rudimentary or improvised would be better: primitive is a word you can use to call another culture

--- End quote ---

Words have different meanings, when it comes to an item, primitive associates with the poor design, improvised doesn't account for that. It can be improvised, but it doesn't mean it has to be of poor design, it can be improvised and be of good quality.

Look, one definition I found on rudimentary on the first page of Google.


--- Quote ---ru·di·men·ta·ry

2 :of a primitive kind <the equipment of these past empire-builders was rudimentary — A. J. Toynbee>

--- End quote ---

Of a primitive kind, but not by a primitive culture, or by a primitive, just that it is of poor design. I don't see how a "primitive tool" could be understood any differently unless "tool of primitives, made by primitives".

God, how can you write so much irrelevant information on the topic. This is even for me hard to comprehend.

Don't have to be some expert on vocabulary or whatever, to just think logically and rationally.

No, I won't be freakishly nice and polite just to hug you know. ;D


--- Quote from: Alvarez on February 25, 2013, 03:28:00 pm ---And damn, T-888, you're a fast typer.

--- End quote ---

I broke my speed record in Idling subject topic, I think. ;D

Kidding, no I don't write very fast. Maybe faster than average people, but who the hell cares, like anyone is going to measure it.

Slaver Snipe:
Okay how about we try this,

Your suggestion is to change primitive with something else
You chose to use an example of Europeans specifically multiple times even though it is not needed and most everyone knows what the negative connotation of primitive is
You want the word changed even though most people (everyone?) realize what form it is being used in
You decide you should insult community members by saying that the concept is too hard to understand for most of them

You think a wastelander wouldn't call his self made POS item primitive because it somehow groups him in with tribals (he calls it primitive realizing it isn't as good as it could be whereas said tribal would merely call it an axe/hatchet which actually puts him farther away from being a tribal by differentiating his poor excuse of an item for the real thing) or if he himself didn't discriminate against tribals that he would refuse to use a word in his extensive vocabulary just because it can have a negative connotation (Unrealistic as it's merely describing the item as sub par, it's not like he would say a man stole his money instead of saying a tribal or insert PC word for tribal in fallout universe stole his money)

That's about right correct?  For someone who studies linguistics you seem to have an axe to grind against using a correct word to describe an item just because it can have another meaning.  Do you really think there was a major point to this suggestion?  How many people do you truly believe took primitive in a negative way regarding the description of an item that is barely adequate in doing it's job?  But just because you REALLY REALLY want this changed how about going with makeshift.

P.S. Calling another culture rudimentary implies inferiority

TKs-KaBoom:

--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 03:51:06 pm ---Hey thanks for the fast tiping, I don't see it as something negative.

I don't want to have an arrogant attitude towards other players, nor do I want to look like T-888 :P I meant all that for Kaboom, who posted in an almost violent tone.

--- End quote ---

I DON'T UNDERSTAND, PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME!!!!!!!   I NEED LINGUSTIC LESSON, PLEASE EDUCATE ME! OHHHHHHHHHHHH I AM SO VIOLENT!!!!!!!!!! gRRRRRRRR aWWWWWWWRRRRRR

Thank God (my specific superior deity naturally) you are a sane, non prejudical moderator without an obvious agenda  ;D ;D

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