Other > Suggestions
Primitive -> Rudimentary/Improvised
Eternauta:
As I was afraid, the concept was a little too difficult to understand by most members of this fine community. Let's see...
--- Quote from: TKs-KaBoom on February 25, 2013, 09:55:42 am ---you dont have enough PC bullshit IRL you need to PC this game to? What else are you offeneded by? I don't even know whether to take this thread seriously or if its just obvious flamebait?
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For the record, no I do not feel offended by some ingame item with the word "primitive" in its name, I was just explaining where the negative value that is often integrated in the word primitive comes from.
--- Quote ---Perhaps if historically people were called "rudimentary", that word would have taken on the same connotation? Perhaps...... maybe..... just think about it...... let it sink in for a minute....... light bulb yet?
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That's a purely hypothetical scenario. If the word rudimentary would have been used instead of primitive, then of course I would be suggesting to change rudimentary and use primitive instead, if the first was used in the game. But that isn't the case. What you said is kinda like saying, "black people could have been called black instead of niggers, so why can't I call them niggers?".
Do you study linguistics? Most probably not, but I personally do. If you want to keep talking on that level of hypothesis, go troll some other guy's thread, not this. Thanks.
--- Quote from: BenKain on February 25, 2013, 10:18:15 am ---From what I'm to understand, Etern is not saying it personally offends him in any way, he is just suggesting that any character that doesn't have an Intelligence of one would not associate himself in any way with "Primitive" society, by calling his tools as such.
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Actually, considering other's cultures "primitive" has nothing to do with an individual's intelligence, it's a cultural thing. You will find very intelligent people in tribal societies (both in the real wolrd and in the Fallout one), but members of a different culture would probably consider that tribal one as a "primitive" one, and consider their members to have low intelligence, for example because they can't speak English or other European language.
--- Quote from: Aoife on February 25, 2013, 10:34:50 am ---Of all the things that should be addressed in game development this seems rather nit picky
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It's a matter of a single word to be changed, it's of course very minor but doesn't require a huge developing effort either.
--- Quote ---considering the world in which this game takes place. It is a post apocalyptic game. There will be discrimination in such a world. And any character with any intelligence would consider such a tool to be primitive as they would be familiar with more advanced technology.
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Indeed there would and there is discrimination in the Fallout world, so "civilized" folk would probably never call their improvised tools "primitive", because that'd be like saying they're similar to tribals.
--- Quote from: Alvarez on February 25, 2013, 12:07:13 pm ---Apart from this, makeshift things tend to be primitive, so there is no offence in the description, IMHO.
We call it Primitive Workbench, not Bench Made By Primitives, too.
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Did you not read the first post? ... Let me quote it for you:
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 05:27:55 am ---Of course I understand the intention is to use primitive with the meaning of rudimentary, but the word primitive has also some other different meanings, leftovers of the 19th century ideology of European superiority over basically all, every and any culture that was not European.
My exact point is: the word primitive does not just mean "rudimentary", it usually has a negative value as well.
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T-888:
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 05:27:55 am ---My exact point is: the word primitive does not just mean "rudimentary", it usually has a negative value as well.
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It doesn't hold any negative values since it is not in such context in order to indicate them as negative.
It would be like me pointing out Racism if some weapon was called, "Black Shotgun", or "Brown Pistol", because those words hold negative values concerning racism, but they just indicate the weapons color, just like "primitive" is used as "rudimentary" only concerning the tools design and nothing more. It doesn't have to be made by primitives or something, just simply that the design of it is poor.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 05:27:55 am ---Of course I understand the intention is to use primitive with the meaning of rudimentary, but the word primitive has also some other different meanings, leftovers of the 19th century ideology of European superiority over basically all, every and any culture that was not European.
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So, not a viable point.
You simply choose to perceive it the wrong way and over-exaggerate.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 02:37:40 pm ---As I was afraid, the concept was a little too difficult to understand by most members of this fine community. Let's see...
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Nah, I think you just got messed up in your mind, it happens to everyone.
So what is your suggestion, change some words because for you it resembles a tribal or something? :D
I don't want to sink into this, but it seems like some rubber stretching and nothing more.
I can see that players seriously don't have anything to do in this game.
Alvarez:
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 02:37:40 pm ---As I was afraid, the concept was a little too difficult to understand by most members of this fine community.
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Excuse me, but let's not fall in arrogance towards other forum members, shall we? This only undermines your image and POV.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 02:37:40 pm ---For the record, no I do not feel offended by some ingame item with the word "primitive" in its name, I was just explaining where the negative value that is often integrated in the word primitive comes from.
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So where is the problem, if you don't feel offended by this word? The case is: do the players feel the same way you do? Must they feel offended by this word? Are they reading between the lines every time? I don't think so.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 02:37:40 pm ---That's a purely hypothetical scenario. If the word rudimentary would have been used instead of primitive, then of course I would be suggesting to change rudimentary and use primitive instead, if the first was used in the game. But that isn't the case. What you said is kinda like saying, "black people could have been called black instead of niggers, so why can't I call them niggers?".
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"Nigger" is a racial slur. "Primitive" is, according to Dictionary.com is not even in technical use in Athropology.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 02:37:40 pm ---Do you study linguistics? Most probably not, but I personally do.
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I'm sorry to disappoint you, but a MMOG forum is probably not the best place to discuss fine aspects of lingustics. Not everyone here have a major in linguistics and please, don't brag with it. It doesn't contribute to your good reputation here on forum.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 02:37:40 pm ---Actually, considering other's cultures "primitive" has nothing to do with an individual's intelligence, it's a cultural thing. You will find very intelligent people in tribal societies (both in the real wolrd and in the Fallout one), but members of a different culture would probably consider that tribal one as a "primitive" one, and consider their members to have low intelligence, for example because they can't speak English or other European language.
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You're straying off, the discussion here is not even about people called primitive.. See above, this word is not even applicable to people anymore.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 02:37:40 pm ---It's a matter of a single word to be changed, it's of course very minor but doesn't require a huge developing effort either.
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Cui bono? You? I have a impression that this change serves as a reason for a mere discussion and why not? Let's see something else than trolling and walls of text. I wouldn't even think, that you want to push such a suggestion through just for kicks and your own profiliation as a respected person. I enjoy this so far.
But seriously, this is a really minor issue.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 02:37:40 pm ---Indeed there would and there is discrimination in the Fallout world, so "civilized" folk would probably never call their improvised tools "primitive", because that'd be like saying they're similar to tribals.
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No. They would probably call it a "crappy workbench". Is this what we want? I think "crappy" is politically correct word.
A not very elegant, but politically correct.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 02:37:40 pm ---Did you not read the first post? ... Let me quote it for you:
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Oh yes, i read it, don't quote yourself, i used to do it earlier, it was a nasty habit.
And damn, T-888, you're a fast typer.
Eternauta:
Hey thanks for the fast tiping, I don't see it as something negative.
I don't want to have an arrogant attitude towards other players, nor do I want to look like T-888 :P I meant all that for Kaboom, who posted in an almost violent tone. Really Alvarez (or anyone else except Kaboom), if you felt attacked or whatever by that comment, it was *not* aimed at you so I'm honestly sorry and have no problem in saying that here and now. Anyway I would personally not contradict a chemistry student about chemistry, I think the same applies to the language, it's something you can study. I meant nothing more than that. But meh, that's not what is being discussed here.
The word crappy wouldn't be polite but imho would fit better than primitive and would be, and you said it yourself, something you could expect in the Fallout world. Oh and once again, it's not about being "politically correct", because in the Fallout world there would and there is discrimination, and that is why I don't think a guy from a non-tribal society would call the improvised tool he just made, "primitive", because that's how they see tribals, who are discriminated in the Fallout world. By calling his own tool "primitive" he would be associating himself with the discriminated tribals, so he would not do it. If he was a guy who discriminated tribals, he wouldn't like to be associated with a discriminated group he considers inferior. If he didn't discriminate tribals himself, then he wouldn't call his tool "primitive", because he wouldn't use words that incldue a value judgment, because he doesn't discriminate.
Crappy includes a value judgment too, but it's not a word that discriminates certain cultures, like primitive does. It could be used for that, but it needs a context: if a guy from the Fallout world said "this is a crappy tribal spear", he would be discriminating tribals, but if he just said "this is a crappy spear" he wouldn't, even if the spear was made by tribals.
For the second time already, it's not about feeling offended, I don't feel offended by how the word primitive is used. You're right that nigger has a racist connotation and so it's a different case than primitive, and you're right that primitive is a term used in Anthropology, but that's what I was talking about, it was used by European anthropologists to call other societies. But Anthropoly is not the main topic here, I just mentioned that to explain where the negative meaning of the word primitive comes from. It was not my goal to criticize anthropologists, or Europeans, or European anthropologists.
And for the second time already, I know devs didn't have that negative meaning in mind when they named the item "primitive tool" (or "primitive workbench" now, as well). That is exactly why I think rudimentary or improvised would be better: primitive is a word you can use to call another culture (or an object or person from that culture) inferior, compared to another one, for example your own. Rudimentary doesn't have that meaning. Rudimentary does mean "less developed" or "improvised" (which is what the devs wanted to say with primitive I am sure), but it does not include a value judgment.
Alvarez:
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 03:51:06 pm ---I don't want to have an arrogant attitude towards other players, nor do I want to look like T-888 :P I meant all that for Kaboom, who posted in an almost violent tone. Really Alvarez (or anyone else except Kaboom), if you felt attacked or whatever by that comment, it was *not* aimed at you so I'm honestly sorry and have no problem in saying that here and now.
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--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 03:51:06 pm ---But Anthropoly is not the main topic here, I just mentioned that to explain where the negative meaning of the word primitive comes from. It was not my goal to criticize anthropologists, or Europeans, or European anthropologists.
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I'm glad we sorted it out, Eternauta, i appreciate it a lot. :)
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 03:51:06 pm ---And for the second time already, I know devs didn't have that negative meaning in mind when they named the item "primitive tool" (or "primitive workbench" now, as well).
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That was my guess.
--- Quote from: Eternauta on February 25, 2013, 03:51:06 pm ---That is exactly why I suggest rudimentary or improvised would be better: primitive is a word you can use to call another culture (or an object or person from that culture) inferior, compared to another one, for example your own. Rudimentary doesn't have that meaning. Rudimentary does mean "less developed" or "improvised" (which is what the devs wanted to say with primitive I am sure), but it does not include a value judgment.
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I really like the word "improvised". If "primitive" would be changed into "improvised", i'd totally support it.
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