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Yes

30 (41.1%)

No

26 (35.6%)

I dont play this game

17 (23.3%)

Total Members Voted: 72

[T-888]

Items are thing that works, but it was always supposed to increase the movement distance over turn, you are NOT getting that. That means it is broken. Even more so, because there is an option to play the game so that it works - totally killing any consistency.

Real time involves the same turns, you just experience them differently, because of that action point regeneration management is upside down the advantage is still there, but you just don't see it the same way. Character can be in motion always, be fluid as real time itself, but you aren't able to act once you drained your action points, AP has the same purpose as in turn base you just experience its effect differently.

In order to regenerate action points you have to be motionless, witch in practice let's a character with higher action points move farther before they can act, do the same action in the same time as a character with less action points who accordingly would be motionless at the same period of time the opponent would move allowing to accumulate only the same amount of action points in order to act at the same time, but not move because in that case the character with lower AP would accumulate less AP if both characters started to move at the same time before accumulating action points for a certain period of time.

Each player has its own time to do his turn before he can act again, the only difference is that all players can act at the same time because human reaction isn't simulated by sequence, encounters includes bots witch of course have superior reaction time to what the player human has, so that's why you feel punished for that. They spend and manage action points more effectively when it comes to speed, they begin to be motionless much quicker when they need to accumulate AP. There are no reaction flaws involved when it comes to npc's.

CBT - Continuous Turn Based mode = RT - Real Time mode

[Johnnybravo]

The situation does not work when both of you move.
This can be best presented if you drop the idea of how long you sit on the place, and imagine that you constantly regenerate AP, and moving consumes it (as it should).
Now if you were running with 14AP max, for 100 hexes, it'd take 8 turns in TB, for 10AP char it's obviously 10 turns. But right now both chars are there in exactly same time.
This basically means that 14AP char lost two turns. He instead should be able to get about 20AP advantage over 10AP char by the time they reach the destination, but this is not happening, the regen kicks in for both in same time, so the character with 14AP gains only 4AP advantage, despite the fact, they've both been spending 100AP to get in there.

The only way to make this working is either make movement really consume AP at the regeneration rate and thus allow people with surplus AP to move faster or at least regenerate this surplus while moving if the speed is supposed to be the same.

[T-888]

Can't drop the idea about regenerating action points while being motionless, it's impossible because you aren't regenerating when running in either case your trying to present, your trying to invent a new wheel. Furthermore, it doesn't work that way in practice like your example, trading action points is undeniable in combat and a character with higher action points will be able to move farther whilst accumulating the same action point amount to act as a character with lower who won't be able to travel the same distance to act the same time, that's how the speed is managed in real time combat, combat, take notice that outside of it it's pointless how much faster you run, and that's the situation your presenting. Running in RT combat means that each second you are loosing action points witch are regenerated by the opponent, none has wasted action points? "The turn" hasn't begun, yet, until then it's irrelevant just like in original fallout games where real time outside of combat didn't grant you any actual movement speed, like in Fallout Tactics it was managed just like it's on 2238. The concept is solid, you just want to add another factor witch in my opinion isn't necessary, you want to amplify the existing advantage, don't see how it helps with balance, nor worth the effort. Characters with high action points have enough advantage and in practice most builds out there have almost the same amount of action points give or take. Snipers was the reason why we started to talk, and snipers aren't imbalanced or weak because they aren't able to take full potential of agility like you think it should be.

and imagine that you constantly regenerate AP, and moving consumes it (as it should).

Impossible like i said, unless ... regeneration speed exceeds the speed it decreases upon running, you get an effect like this. It will result either in decrease/increase of AP while moving depending on how fast it increases/decreases, can increase and decrease at the same time, it will give one of those effects and not both or none effect at all, middle ground. Currently it's absolute zero, you are regenerating action points at the same speed it decreases while running, so basically you are not regenerating action points while moving at all and not loosing them either.

http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,19102.msg158763.html#msg158763

Not necessary after some time to think.

[Johnnybravo]

No I don't want any amplification, I just want the game to be consistent and rules to be exact. The idea of sequence is never likely gonna make it, unless it's added as artificial lag. That's something that needs to be fixed in TB fights instead (for example they could use simultaneous turns to eliminate this), but this is borked in real time, working just fine in TB.
Combat is beyond exchanging shots, movement speed matters. Especially since it was one of the ways how could agile characters deal with bulky melees. Now you cannot ever outrun them, because you simply need to take the beating from them if you want to continue with your attacks. On other hand strong melee pests are virtually useless in RT, because they no longer retain their insane movement speed (eg. floaters, claws or aliens were quite deadly in SP games).

The choice between TB and RT should be purely on player habits, and should never be balance factor.

Currently it's absolute zero, you are regenerating action points at the same speed it decreases while running, so basically you are not regenerating action points while moving at all and not loosing them either.

Which in result equals to using up all the regeneration for movement, that's absolutely fine, if you get more movement for higher regeneration, which is not the case however.

[John Porno]

They don't do damage often which means you can't use them alone, they always have to support some bigger group to KO or cripple enemies. I always played as damage sniper, that's why I think snipers are practically useless now.

this.

I can actually argue about that, have you ever tried running around alone with a sniper in klamath? I haven't, but that could be fun. They sure aren't much of use in new reno, also they are pretty neat in TB what i heard from some, let's say experienced players.

I did that a lot in the first weeks/months after the update and it was awesome since everyone had 1lk builds. As soon people started to roll with 5lk and snipers were nerfed, they are pretty much useless alone.

In any case, BG got buffed tremendously, snipers virtually not at all.

[jacky.]

Bullshit. I had Rvsty laser sniper 20% better rbt 11ap 216hp and he was uber duper. I remember when i used him first Time in large waves fight in gecko (cs,sot,bbs, havks) i killed 4-6 people before i get killed. Snipers are good in killing militia knocking bgs. There were fights when 2gauss snipers from sot were killing half of my gang and we couldnt find Them (it was during fight in residental) So snipers are fine.

[Ville]

It depends what build you shoot. With new things like bonehead and man of steel, 290 max hp makes snipers very ineffective. Also a good player knows how to run and regenerae action point one at a time by running stop for 1 second, regernate action point run agian, regeneration next action point, in real time combat.

The way I see it is the sniper is the clean up build a big gunner can can get most builds down to very low HP (I'm not talking about one hexing) and the sniper does the final blow would be be the most effective and ideal way to use a sniper this session/update.  But usually PvP is such a big mess and chaotic most just shoot the first thing they see.

In PvP its most effective to have builds that can kill at least one person than to cripple or just do a knock out, which is why sniper is not that great and people go for big gunners and lasers.

Snipers do kill, they can kill other snipers or builds that don't use bonehead, man of steal and no toughness, but since majority of players go with bonehead on their pvp builds this is why snipers seem so weak. There is alot of anti-sniper perks and traits to take.

Also porno, this isn't the begining of the session RBtE did a bonus to crit damage this was changed many updates ago this is another reason why snipers seemed more power then than it is now.

[John Porno]

Also porno, this isn't the begining of the session RBtE did a bonus to crit damage this was changed many updates ago this is another reason why snipers seemed more power then than it is now.

nobody took rbte tanyway as your critchance was lower. Plus, nobody knew that the very first rbte was bugged to begin with.

pre patch:
10 (lk) + 60 (eye multiplier) + 10 (emc) + 5 (mc) - 10 (helmet) = 75
10 (lk) + 60 (eye multiplier) + 10 (emc) - 7,5 (helmet/rbte) = 72,5
1lk targets
post patch(es):
10 (lk) + 60 (eye multiplier) + 10 (emc) + 5 (mc) - 20 (helmet) = 65
10 (lk) + 60 (eye multiplier) + 10 (emc) - 10 (helmet/rbte) = 70
5+lk targets
altered crit dmg calculation concerning DT (T888's quote)
altered crit tables (supposedly less bypasses)

sniper rifle have good damage enough, and 50 hexes range so dont need any buff. look for crit modifiers first.

lol
easily i have 100-150 criticals. knocking out almost everytime.

please leave this thread.

[Kelin]

Bullshit. I had Rvsty laser sniper 20% better rbt 11ap 216hp and he was uber duper. I remember when i used him first Time in large waves fight in gecko (cs,sot,bbs, havks) i killed 4-6 people before i get killed. Snipers are good in killing militia knocking bgs. There were fights when 2gauss snipers from sot were killing half of my gang and we couldnt find Them (it was during fight in residental)

Mentioning snipers before the update    mentioning militia  yes now we can start talking about junk obtaining from barrels and farming sniper rifles from caves.

Basically everything was perfect before the update, which means

snipers are fine.

Marvellous conclusion indeed.

[Ville]

nobody took rbte tanyway as your critchance was lower. Plus, nobody knew that the very first rbte was bugged to begin with.

That is just an assumption and not based on any fact. My first PvP build of the session was a laser sniper and I took RBtE and knew about it, the character planner was out before the wipe so I am sure many people knew about it and planned ahead.

But look I knew from the start this wasn't going to be a sniper session when I saw perks like man of steel and the trait bonehead.

[T-888]

altered crit tables (supposedly less bypasses)please leave this thread.

Pre-update it was 60% to bypass if critically hit in eyes on 1 luck character, did tests then and did tests now, the results show 30%, previously there was no further improvement of protection past 5 luck witch would stop at approximately 30%, i have no idea what are the numbers on characters with luck > 5 right now or luck > 1 in matter of fact, it's easy to test that actually.

[Guilherme]

hmm? why should i leave ? 
i'm not a 2238 expert but i know that my sniper have good criticals.

[John Porno]

That is just an assumption and not based on any fact. My first PvP build of the session was a laser sniper and I took RBtE and knew about it, the character planner was out before the wipe so I am sure many people knew about it and planned ahead.

so you took rbte instead of mc even though it was clearly inferior for half a damn year as the above table shows?

[T-888]

John, at first all we had was this description, that was at the very first days of wipe and players who get their builds capped at first days had to make some blind decisions and i made one too ...

Description: You are able to hit your target with unerring accuracy. Helmets are no protection against you!

Doesn't it sound appealing? Helmets are no protection! How can you not take that perk?

and it reduced both critical chance modifier and power, witch wasn't all that bad, i was glad that i didn't do a wrong choice at first, but it didn't last long and Solar ruined everything for a long time. It was either more critical chance, health points, action points better choice a long time, but it didn't screw my gauss build completely.

[Ville]

so you took rbte instead of mc even though it was clearly inferior for half a damn year as the above table shows?

Agian assumption you do not my build how would you know if I took more critical or not? T-888 is talking about bypasses more criticals perks give more of a chance to cause a critical not every critical is going to be a bypass. RBtE is a necessary perk because we now have critical defense on helmets it has always been useful I do not know where you think its useless its necessary for any eye/head shooter PvP build. Otherwise if you shoot some guy in 100% combat helmet your criticals won't roll as high and you do shittier damage -20 on critical table is a big step between doing x2 damage with knockdown or x3 damage with crippling effecting or knock out.

Bonhead gives +10 critical defense to heads and eyes, the top helmet is 100% combat helmet with +20 critical defense, man of steel gives +10 critical defense to all parts that can be targeted. So that is -30 on a critical roll total to targets shooting somebody with these 3 things how is RBtE useless? It is necessary to shoot somebody with full crit defense perks and traits. Your target well have -20 crit defense on head with right between the eyes and full perks but its better than having -30 on critical table and doing a shittier critical. Also not every build has bonehead, man of steel, or use a 100% combat helmet.

If you do the math for somebody just wearing a 100% combat helmet with no man of steel or bonehead that is only -10 critical defense if you shoot this person with RBtE.


This session is all about countering builds if you want a big gunner to do good vs snipers and laser snipers you bring a full crit defense build, if you are trying to kill tanks you bring a crit burster the game has become more measures and counter measures than just playing one uber build for every PvP battle. Everything has a weakness, there is no ultimate build, and sadly snipers well never be this session, 50 hex range has its advantage it has its uses but its not the greatest build to mass swarm with these days becuase so much has been programed into the game to lower critical rolls.