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Critical bursts.

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Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: Johnnybravo on July 03, 2012, 02:47:27 pm ---Shouldn't rocket launcher be good for it's inbuilt CC and not for insane damage?
It was absolute mess previous season when people brought a lot of rocket launchers, and they could do that very easily because of NPCs. It was basically that unless guys were spread heavily, most of them were CCed to death, opening path for some bursters to finish it (because rockets were heavy and quite expensive compared to light support and 223 ammo), but I could see RL only team work just as fine if they had awesome logistics.Obviously those 5% nerf on armors for laser resists was answer to ridiculous randomness of laser weapons. Well played developers - something is weak because it has insane counter? Buff the numbers!

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Well, do they do insane damage on crit? Their damage is sort of weak as it stands, so nerfing them along with Gatling Lasers would basically push RL even further into the support weapon niche. I like seeing a good rocket kill from time to time and I'm pretty sure other people enjoy it too, so it's a pretty delicate issue to handle. That's why I'd suggest going for small steps in terms of hotfixes and a more holistic approach for the next session.

Just think what builds and armors people use in PvP, write what kind of damage weapons are expected do on crit and on normal hit (numbers to be adjusted and descriptive terms to be set in stone), consult the PvP community, tweak the numbers a bit, run a CBT with PvP players and if it works, close the book on weapon balance and never touch it again unless something ridiculous comes up in the future... and even if it does, you're going to have guidelines on how to adjust it to fit with the rest. Without this kind of conceptualization we're going to have to deal with ridiculously overpowered builds etc. till the end of time.

T-888:

--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 03, 2012, 02:40:57 pm ---Nah, that's the problem with Gatling Laser anyway - it either does a massive crit or just cuddles you a bit. Even against a sniper, you need to crit to kill if your opponent has a good build.

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Nope, i have a gauss build with 188 HP and dead man walking, two avenger bursts from common build and i'm unconscious, any sniper with less HP dies and most snipers have less HP. By the way gatling does more damage on CA than Avenger, two shots from gatling on CA with no crits is just dead sniper and GG.


--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 03, 2012, 02:40:57 pm ---What are you talking about, crit bursters are actually the only perfectly balanced build right now in terms of offense vs defense. Snipers and lasers don't get enough HP without sacrificing stuff that's absolutely necessary for them to perform their function, BG BRD builds don't get enough perks to max their HP which gimps them as line builds, it's just critbursters and rocket launchers that get to choose something outside their "specialty" and get some nice variation.

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Making a crit-burster means most of your perks are pure offense, unless it's a gatling/lsw build where you can squeeze in some lifegivers and that's it(glass cannons). They are specialized, yes that's good, but their so strong the balance currently revolves around them in terms of build viability, normal BRD builds are useless against them, they lack the offense in comparison and can't squeeze enough protection to compete, unless of course you are some jacked up tank or a crit burster yourself. Those mad high critical hits is what makes it unbalanced, the critical builds themselves are not the problem, and i want them to be viable, but with more balanced critical hits, so there are actually more builds that can compete with them. Currently there are mostly only critical builds out there.


--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 03, 2012, 02:40:57 pm ---Yeah, but when you're nerfing torso crits you're nerfing crit-RL too, which isn't too good because RL crits are good as they are. You could try 200-250 and see whether people still get 1HKOd a lot, I'd assume they wouldn't if the don't have shitty builds (which seems to be a large part of the problem anyway). Remember that even if you have something like 259 HP, a 250 crit is still not going to kill you so you can stim yourself and pull back unless it's a large frontal attack or you're standing way out in the open, which imo. should get you killed. It's more of a matter of taste and general lethality, 150-200 would be more in line with stat-based numbers game combat while 200-250 would force you to play in a bit more stealthy manner so that you try to get the drop on the other dude first while still giving him a chance to react instead of trying to overwhelm him with numbers/dps. Both approaches are reasonable, it's just too bad that the devs never told us what kind of PvP gameplay they're aiming for.

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Critical builds as stated previously have either 11 or 12 AP with Brof, stiming between shots is not a real option and upon even a minor wound before the critical hit, means your practically dead if you get hit by one. That's walking on a thin line, just situational if wether you can survive that. Not get hit, won't work too with current game mechanics, trading hits is just a huge part of fighting and critical builds( with the fucked up critical hits) dominates in that, the fight goes long enough, enough shots are lined up and no matter what build, can't protect yourself effectively like you imagine.

Bad builds won't make an excuse this time too, critical builds are good builds from what you are saying, but if two of them fights each other, someone will make an insta-kill as soon as the first critical hit is dealt, again trading hits, can't do anything about.

Nefing avenger minigun slightly (removing one bonus ranged damage, two is enough firepower, in conjuction with critical builds 3 BRD is just ridiculous damage output that way exceeding RL's by a great deal) could work before applying changes to the critical tables, it was buffed without any real reason. Slight nerf to minimal, maximum damage for the miniguns wouldn't hurt, they would still be in good shape and as a top weapon without any doubt. I am playing with a build that has 2xBRD the damage output is quite high anyway.

Gatling gun shouldn't be a much problem due to the popular MA, and the nerf of damage multiplier, LSW has always been some magicly balanced weapon, same shit for RL.

Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: T-888 on July 03, 2012, 03:18:46 pm ---Nope, i have a gauss build with 188 HP and dead man walking, two avenger bursts from common build and i'm unconscious, any sniper with less HP dies and most snipers have less HP.

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Yeah, but Avenger critbuilds are borderline inviable right now because Gatling is more than enough to score a kill. I'd rather talk about them separately since Avenger critburster is more of a hybrid combining the normal hit damage of BG with 1HKO potential of a critbuild - and obviously sacrificing a lot of your defensive capabilities. What really makes Gatling shine are armor bypasses... Avenger - probably not so much.


--- Quote from: T-888 on July 03, 2012, 03:18:46 pm ---Making a crit-burster means most of your perks are pure offense, unless it's a gatling/lsw build where you can squeeze in some lifegivers and that's it(glass cannons). They are specialized, yes that's good, but their so strong the balance currently revolves around them in terms of build viability, normal BRD builds are useless against them, they lack the offense in comparison and can't squeeze enough protection to compete, unless of course you are some jacked up tank or a crit burster yourself. Those mad high critical hits is what makes it unbalanced, the critical builds themselves are not the problem, and i want them to be viable, but with more balanced critical hits, so there are actually more builds that can compete with them. Currently there are mostly only critical builds out there.

--- End quote ---
Yeah, but see above - can you really call an Avenger glass cannon a typical critbuild right now? You can make a Gatling (maybe even LSW, but it's a bit too weak) build that basically does the same thing with crits and has Man of Steel + max HP.


--- Quote from: T-888 on July 03, 2012, 03:18:46 pm ---Critical builds as stated previously have either 11 or 12 AP with Brof, stiming between shots is not a real option and upon even a minor wound before the critical hit, means your practically dead if you get hit by one. That's walking on a thin line, just situational if wether you can survive that. Not get hit, won't work too with current game mechanics, trading hits is just a huge part of fighting and critical builds( with the fucked up critical hits) dominates in that, the fight goes long enough, enough shots are lined up and no matter what build, can't protect yourself effectively like you imagine.

--- End quote ---
Well, if you go all out you're totally right, but such chars have ridiculously low HP, 220-ish or something like that, so they suck against non-crit builds. How viable would they be with crits sitting in 200-250 range? Would they cause a lot of imbalance? I have no effin' idea because it gets pretty complex as a lot of variables come into play, so that's why I said we should try the 200-250 range (which is literally the smallest possible step down from 1HKOs) and see how it works out. If the problem persists, no reason not to try 150-200 in another hotfix.


--- Quote from: T-888 on July 03, 2012, 03:18:46 pm ---Bad builds won't make an excuse this time too, critical builds are good builds from what you are saying, but if two of them fights each other, someone will make an insta-kill as soon as the first critical hit is dealt, again trading hits, can't do anything about.

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I wasn't saying critbuilds are bad, I was saying people getting killed while running a trash build often cry a lot making it hard for the devs to separate viable criticism from newbie whining. I mean, games should be balanced for high level of play because most imbalance below that comes from people being unable to work out the mechanics.


--- Quote from: T-888 on July 03, 2012, 03:18:46 pm ---Nefing avenger minigun slightly (removing one bonus ranged damage, two is enough firepower, in conjuction with critical builds 3 BRD is just ridiculous damage output that way exceeding RL's by a great deal) could work before applying changes to the critical tables, it was buffed without any real reason. Slight nerf to minimal, maximum damage of the miniguns itself wouldn't hurt, they would still be in good shape and as a top weapon without any doubt.

--- End quote ---
Shit, I don't really like that because it'd reduce Avenger to critbursting in the future. I'd rather have Avenger as it was before, doing a lot of damage on a normal hit and giving you that 200-250 (or 150-200) crit if you're willing to sacrifice HP. Actually screw it, if it's impossible to achieve this via a crit table modification, just put a 250 (or 200) dmg hardcap for torso shots. Something like "if dmg > 250 than dmg = 250" and the problem goes away without messing with other weapons.

pagemaster:
Could you have a pre-table multiplier for different weapon types so that you could possibly use the same crit-table for all weapons but then rescale the extent of the variation between a non-crit and a crit shot? That way you could keep RL builds where they are (since they seem to be just fine) as an explosives big-gun (or just explosives) and rescale mini-guns separately? Same with sniper rifles, energy weapons.

This way, the devs can change the balance of individual builds without affecting others and also do so with more frequent mini-updates. You might also be able to create more diversity in builds using this, i.e. make shotguns have a higher crit multiplier so that they can be used in a manner similar to the GL (tickle or crit hard).

Granted, I understand this may either overcomplicate balancing the game or simply give the devs too much license to change things a lot :P Small changes seem like they're always the best answer for rebalancing things.

avv:
Even with 200 damage critburst would still mostly mean death because most critbursts are doubleshotters. So it's about 270 damage in short time.

Think about it like this: critburst needs to be equally good as plasma build because their gear costs pretty much the same and work within the same area of combat. Both are hard hitters but slightly differend way.
How I see it is that critburst needs to have better average damage, but worse peak damage and effects (ko, kd, criple). I honestly don't know how good are best plasma crits, but they sure as hell aren't 250, hardly ever even 200.

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