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[Rage master]

Good i can smell rage here

[varandas]

Well if this fr ting keaps going this session will die very soon . Some teams already left and others are in process to. As Manero ask me the other day (why tttla don't play anymore) here you have the answer. We are all against no relog time. We can't support a form of pvp where tactics and skill lose against hours pexing new chars. Have fun........

[avv]

I'm for the Jovanka's sleepyness but only if it prevents at least attacking for 2-3 minutes after login.

I'm for no relog time. If defeated team comes again to the battlefield, there is a quick opportunity to beat them again. If they win, that means that your team should practice more (well unless heavily outnumbered lol as anything can be bypassed with numbers). Some kind of challenge is good.

Beat them again? If lost, practice more? Oh comon. Sometimes fights are won only nearly and even small quick reinforcements from other side can turn the tide. The smaller the conflict, the bigger meaning fast reinforcements have.

[Nice_Boat]

Well if this fr ting keaps going this session will die very soon . Some teams already left and others are in process to. As Manero ask me the other day (why tttla don't play anymore) here you have the answer. We are all against no relog time. We can't support a form of pvp where tactics and skill lose against hours pexing new chars. Have fun........

Weren't the only teams that left the ones that didn't manage or didn't care enough to get basic resources like weapons, drugs, ammo, caps etc? And guys, Kilgore is right - don't leave, level up your game instead. It really isn't that hard to make a comeback without fast relog chars waiting over the map if you do things right and the satisfaction of beating a team that basically spams characters losing drugs, armors etc. in the process is nice too.

I'm for the Jovanka's sleepyness but only if it prevents at least attacking for 2-3 minutes after login.

Why the wishful thinking? I mean I've written something like this before, but let me reiterate and tell me whether you do agree on the following points or not:
- people don't die in battle all at once
- having a good logistical base allows you to rearm the char that died in about 60-120 seconds after respawn
- looting and regrouping after a victory takes at least 5 minutes
- entering as a whole beats constantly streamed reinforcements every time unless the other team is camping a building

Because if you do agree, this whole sleepiness/fast relog argument is just pointless as it makes very little difference in terms of time of arrival of another wave whether you have fast relog and alts waiting over the map or not - you just rearm and wait for the others to die and do the same, 2 minutes is not enough and 10 minutes or something that'd make this delay meaningful would just make the game more of a pain in the ass outside of PvP and basically make having proxy alts over the map a popular thing for people who prefer spamming their little lv24 zerglings instead of fighting in the name of Odin with a single character  like real men do.

Beat them again? If lost, practice more? Oh comon. Sometimes fights are won only nearly and even small quick reinforcements from other side can turn the tide. The smaller the conflict, the bigger meaning fast reinforcements have.

I don't really agree. In small conflicts individual skill is what matters (Hinkley comes to mind), with 5v5 or less one person can do an all-kill pretty easily if the other team doesn't know what it's doing. In bigger fights making a synchronized entry (and really, would anyone dare to disagree with that?) is more important than constantly keeping some presence on the map, so basically what Kilgore said is true for most situations. Is the remaining 10% of odd setups that result in fast relogs having an edge over "normal" play worth all this fuss? Is it worth introducing the mechanic that weights heavily on everything outside PvP?

Mass relogging is just a really expensive tactic that hurts you more than it helps if you do it every single time, there really is no rational reason for it receiving this much attention and whine, but then again this community has been overreacting over minor things like that for 3 years, so it's just another day in the 2238 forums I guess.

[Sarakin]

Are you even playing Nice Boat ? Youre describing 60-120 seconds, FR alt can jump in 5 seconds. Looting doesnt take 5 minutes when everyone can FR to his looter and loot all in under one minute. If everything whats Kilgore is saying is true, why arent BBS dominating ?

[avv]

- people don't die in battle all at once
- having a good logistical base allows you to rearm the char that died in about 60-120 seconds after respawn
- looting and regrouping after a victory takes at least 5 minutes
- entering as a whole beats constantly streamed reinforcements every time unless the other team is camping a building

Because if you do agree, this whole sleepiness/fast relog argument is just pointless as it makes very little difference in terms of time of arrival of another wave whether you have fast relog and alts waiting over the map or not - you just rearm and wait for the others to die and do the same, 2 minutes is not enough and 10 minutes or something that'd make this delay meaningful would just make the game more of a pain in the ass outside of PvP and basically make having proxy alts over the map a popular thing for people who prefer spamming their little lv24 zerglings instead of fighting in the name of Odin with a single character  like real men do.

I don't get it what you don't get. I've seen what fastrelogs do and they ruin stuff up. You are talking about concentrated spawning after everyone is dead, but with fast relogs people just spawn right after they die and join the action while it's still going on. Maybe if everyone waited that their pallies died fast relog would't be so bad but they don't do that. Once someone dies, he relogs to an alt and is back in the ongoing action in less than 20 seconds. That matters.

I don't really agree. In small conflicts individual skill is what matters (go see Hinkley), with 5v5 or less one person can do an all-kill pretty easily if the other team doesn't know what it's doing.

And when skill-level is close to equal? The one who has more waves wins. If the other side fastrelogs it doesn't mean they are worse players by means of skills. What if some people just had like 3 more lives in hinkley versus your single life and they were equally skilled?
In addition if more skilled players do fast relog against less skilled ones, they will cer-fucking-tainly win, taking away even the small chance of victory from the beginners.

In bigger fights making a synchronized entry (and really, would anyone dare to disagree with that?) is more important than keeping some presence of the map most of the times, so basically what Kilgore said is true for most situations

And with fastrelog making this entry is even easier because the team doing it has their chars on worldmap already. They just put a new ready channel in teamspeak for those who got chars ready for next wave.

Is the remaining 10% of odd setups that result in fast relogs having an edge over "normal" play worth all this fuss? Is it worth introducing the mechanic that weights heavily on everything outside PvP?

Weights down heavily outside pvp? Not being able to fight in 2-3 minutes after login is going to weight down exactly what?

Mass relogging is just a really expensive tactic that hurts you more than it helps if you do it every single time, there really is no rational reason for it receiving this much attention and whine, but then again this community has been overreacting over minor things like that for 3 years, so it's just another day in the 2238 forums I guess.

It's not expensive because it wins fights. You spawn more zergs and weight the enemy down until you got them. Then just claim back the loot.

[Nice_Boat]

Are you even playing Nice Boat ? Youre describing 60-120 seconds, FR alt can jump in 5 seconds. Looting doesnt take 5 minutes when everyone can FR to his looter and loot all in under one minute. If everything whats Kilgore is saying is true, why arent BBS dominating ?

So yeah, disregard the gist of the interlocutor's argument ("no meaningful difference between 60-120 and 5 seconds because by the time the last person dies everyone else is already waiting geared up", in case you didn't get it the first time), make an illogical and obviously untrue statement (looter alts don't require FR and were always used, besides large battles that make reinforcements important were never wrapped up this fast with disabled sneaklooting) and add the good ol' ad hominem which isn't even true because BBS is doing really well at the moment. What a quality post Sarakin.

I don't get it what you don't get. I've seen what fastrelogs do and they ruin stuff up. You are talking about concentrated spawning after everyone is dead, but with fast relogs people just spawn right after they die and join the action while it's still going on. Maybe if everyone waited that their pallies died fast relog would't be so bad but they don't do that. Once someone dies, he relogs to an alt and is back in the ongoing action in less than 20 seconds. That matters.

In case you didn't notice, I'm disputing the point of joining the action while it's still going on unless it's a siege situation.

And when skill-level is close to equal? The one who has more waves wins. If the other side fastrelogs it doesn't mean they are worse players by means of skills. What if some people just had like 3 more lives in hinkley versus your single life and they were equally skilled?
In addition if more skilled players do fast relog against less skilled ones, they will cer-fucking-tainly win, taking away even the small chance of victory from the beginners.

And how the hell are you supposed to put this skill to use when you end up with a giant clusterfuck if you don't take your sweet time to regroup?

And with fastrelog making this entry is even easier because the team doing it has their chars on worldmap already. They just put a new ready channel in teamspeak for those who got chars ready for next wave.

Yeah, it is easier but it's also considerably more expensive and really, is the difference that big in practical terms? On another note, you just contradicted yourself because you either ready the next wave or you keep running in, you can't do both as ultimately players is your most important resource.

Weights down heavily outside pvp? Not being able to fight in 2-3 minutes after login is going to weight down exactly what?

2-3 minutes is going to be a bit irritating if you want to do an in-town spawn (which is already risky and not very popular), besides it's going to slow your farming down (which in macro scale is a giant pain in the ass because farming is already nasty and a must). 10 minutes necessary to make this cooldown really count would be even worse, so yeah.

It's not expensive because it wins fights. You spawn more zergs and weight the enemy down until you got them. Then just claim back the loot.

Drugs and armors get depleted, guns are easy to get. Fighting with a single char and actually protecting your ass instead of doing human wave assaults is still the most cost-effective way to go at it and I'm not even sure we'd be having this discussion if the towns weren't bugged with next to infinite supply of drugs at the beginning anyway.

[varandas]

Do you realy tink what youa re sayng or you are just posting for more spech nice_boat?
Have you been around lately?
I can show you videos where we defeat 2/3 waves od 15 players and we lost 2/3 per wave and stil got crushed in last wave and all this in less than 5 min so dont come and tell me that fr is not inportant and even whit relog timer this is possibel.
Please be racional this is destroing pvp.
Question to everyone that have seen more than 1 wipe. Have you ever seen one after wipe whit so low player base so quick than this one? I wonder what will be the number of players online in lets say 6/7 months if tings keap going dwon this road.
Just tink about it...............

[Shangalar]

Such a project with no leading direction cannot survive indefinately. This "beta" stayed for years. I guess it's just time to go somewhere else. At least that's what I'm gonna do.

[avv]

And how the hell are you supposed to put this skill to use when you end up with a giant clusterfuck if you don't take your sweet time to regroup?

You find your pals who fight the enemy and fight the fight the usual "skilled" way. Or if leader sees his men are falling, he can fall back a bit, call the fastreloggers to spawn somewhere and regroup with the survivors for another push.

2-3 minutes is going to be a bit irritating if you want to do an in-town spawn (which is already risky and not very popular), besides it's going to slow your farming down (which in macro scale is a giant pain in the ass because farming is already nasty and a must). 10 minutes necessary to make this cooldown really count would be even worse, so yeah.

Slows down my farming? I gear up my farmer and move it in position during the first 2-3 mins. I farm in cycles of several hours so few minutes in the beginning is nothing.

Drugs and armors get depleted, guns are easy to get. Fighting with a single char and actually protecting your ass instead of doing human wave assaults is still the most cost-effective way to go at it and I'm not even sure we'd be having this discussion if the towns weren't bugged with next to infinite supply of drugs at the beginning anyway.

You might consume drugs and armor multiple times faster with fastrelog but what do we do when we don't pvp? We farm. I'd say we farm 90% of our gaming time anyway, at least now. So everyone who can farm can afford fast relog waves. And if you're out of gear, don't pvp but go farming then come back when you can afford fast relog waves. Who suffers? those who don't have time to farm as much others can. They suffer at least double compared to before.
And lastly, fast reloggers don't have to do human wave attacks. They might do it because it works now, but if someone magically manages to counter that strategy it doesn't mean that fast reloggers lose. They are still as good players as they are without it but with it they have instant respawning and regearing at their disposal. It should be pretty obvious advantage over normal respawning and normal regearing. We always need to come back faster when we die.

[blahblah]

2-3 minutes is going to be a bit irritating if you want to do an in-town spawn (which is already risky and not very popular), besides it's going to slow your farming down (which in macro scale is a giant pain in the ass because farming is already nasty and a must). 10 minutes necessary to make this cooldown really count would be even worse, so yeah.

Just 2-3 minutes is better than 0 minutes. Just 2 minutes is enough to make fast-relog annoying and less useful. On the other hand, 2 minutes is usually shorter than the time a normal player needs to remember what he was planning to do today, check his items, get ready, move on map where he wants, etc.
No real player character ever logs out in-town. Only alts for quick shop access with zero items to lose.

[Nice_Boat]

You find your pals who fight the enemy and fight the fight the usual "skilled" way. Or if leader sees his men are falling, he can fall back a bit, call the fastreloggers to spawn somewhere and regroup with the survivors for another push.

See, maybe that's the problem here - you're still fighting in a linear manner? Maybe it's time to adapt?

Slows down my farming? I gear up my farmer and move it in position during the first 2-3 mins. I farm in cycles of several hours so few minutes in the beginning is nothing.

And I jump into my farmer, do a quick run and then go do something productive. Oh, and I char-skip a lot outside combat. I'm not the only person playing like that. Why do you want to waste our time by introducing a bad solution to a problem not everyone even considers a problem in the first place?

You might consume drugs and armor multiple times faster with fastrelog but what do we do when we don't pvp? We farm. I'd say we farm 90% of our gaming time anyway, at least now. So everyone who can farm can afford fast relog waves. And if you're out of gear, don't pvp but go farming then come back when you can afford fast relog waves. Who suffers? those who don't have time to farm as much others can. They suffer at least double compared to before.

You have to farm n times more with n being the number of chars you use. This is not something to be taken lightly and actually it's an effin' huge upkeep. The thing is the field isn't really level because depleting the resources is not an issue due to the bug I mentioned before - some factions are just so stocked the don't have to give a damn. It's more of an issue with TC rewards and influence than it is with relogs. Make taking the town less of a chore and balance the rewards and this problem would go away on its own with time, especially since moving all those alts over WM is really a pain in the ass so factions doing this lame bs would be more or less restricted to their "hometown" everyone would avoid anyway. Actually, it's always been like that but now that TC is so effin' static this natural obstacle has been removed.

And lastly, fast reloggers don't have to do human wave attacks. They might do it because it works now, but if someone magically manages to counter that strategy it doesn't mean that fast reloggers lose. They are still as good players as they are without it but with it they have instant respawning and regearing at their disposal. It should be pretty obvious advantage over normal respawning and normal regearing. We always need to come back faster when we die.

Oh, but they have to - otherwise they lose their edge and we're back to "it doesn't even matter because regearing a single char is fast anyway".

[avv]

See, maybe that's the problem here - you're still fighting in a linear manner? Maybe it's time to adapt?

No idea what's that supposed to mean. If you manage to defeat for example SoT fastrelog waves with some strategy that doesn't involve cheating regularly and in constant rate I'm ready to admit that fr is not a problem. If this strategy is 60 player swarm, I'm not impressed.

And I jump into my farmer, do a quick run and then go do something productive. Oh, and I char-skip a lot outside combat. I'm not the only person playing like that. Why do you want to waste our time by introducing a bad solution to a problem not everyone even considers a problem in the first place?

You can char skip in another window. Yes I'm telling you to dual log.

You have to farm n times more with n being the number of chars you use. This is not something to be taken lightly and actually it's an effin' huge upkeep. The thing is the field isn't really level because depleting the resources is not an issue due to the bug I mentioned before - some factions are just so stocked the don't have to give a damn. It's more of an issue with TC rewards and influence than it is with relogs. Make taking the town less of a chore and balance the rewards and this problem would go away on its own with time, especially since moving all those alts over WM is really a pain in the ass so factions doing this lame bs would be more or less restricted to their "hometown" everyone would avoid anyway. Actually, it's always been like that but now that TC is so effin' static this natural obstacle has been removed.

FR is not only problem in tc but pvp anywhere. In gecko mine, new reno, mariposa anywhere where you can just jump in from worldmap at unlimited rate.

Oh, but they have to - otherwise they lose their edge and we're back to "it doesn't even matter because regearing a single char is fast anyway".

Normal respawn + regear is 1min 30sec min. Fast relog is 20 seconds. If you can choose, do you take rather 1,5mins or 20 seconds at the cost of some drugs if your whole team's victory is at stake? Some will do it from the delight of pwning some random guy who killed his previous char.

[JovankaB]

No idea what's that supposed to mean. If you manage to defeat for example SoT fastrelog waves with some strategy that doesn't involve cheating regularly and in constant rate I'm ready to admit that fr is not a problem.

Perhaps we could arrange a little test - fast relogging SOT vs non-linear tactics of BBS

[manero]

I don't really care about that waves of alts, it's quite annoying but if i can do the same than everything works fine.

Like someone said...

"Adapt or lose." I don't see "cry" option