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[A concerned wastelander]

About Heavy Handed itself:
I tested (1-2 days ago) heavy handed - 10 ST char attacking char with 10 ST and 10 EN with Stonewall. Somehow 99% of hits were knocking him down so I am not sure if it's a bug or just imbalanced feature.

Bug or imbalanced feature, at least we agree that something is wrong here.

[Solar]

Stonewall should beat HH, its just not working at the moment.

I think I'll copy and paste that

[GroeneAppel]

90AC is not for long, soon it's gonna be 220AC. With -220 skill, your minigun at 3 hex prolly won't even have 95%...

Jinxed can cause crit failure only when you miss in a first place. The HtH will have 95% ToHit. Everyone else prolly not with 220AC.

I can imagine many way for HtH to got close to you : waiting in a building, around a corner, being a sneak... And once they hit you, I am pretty sure your chance to get back on your feet are really low. Not mentioning there can be two bluesuit HH against you, if they play well, one hit and you're dead, whatever your stuff.

Only if there is someone else.
Or if there is as much HH than NPCs.

And, obviously, all of the above in bluesuit without weapon. Yeah, it's very balanced right now...

Thanks god Solar noticed something is wrong and will nerf it enough for it to be useful, but not ultimate whenever it come to duel or at least as much bluesuit HH as opponents.

Concerning 220 AC - Keep in mind that to archieve this, you will be needing allot of perks. and there won't be much else left.
You should also keep in mind, that the moment this hth stops moving, he suddenly becomes a very very easy target. Especially since he won't have any lifegiver perks or toughness perks because of the various dodger perks.

You also mentioned that hth will practically never miss when beating somoene down. - You forget that all it takes is a single miss hit, And with the currenty damage a hh hth can do it takes a very long time to actually kill somoene with a decent amount of HP.

You also mention multiple hh hth people beating on you - Which is funny because your whole argument relies on the fact that the person being beaten is alone. I'm fairly sure that when you meet two persons equal in strenght to you that your odds to survive are already very low. and atleast you can run from hh if you are atleast slightly carefull to avoid them from jumping you. And i'm also sure that once you come with atleast a single friend, your whole worries about hh are over.

As I mentioned before. You can fix this whole problem by giving good armor a str - x roll when being hit by hh instead of the current str roll. You do not replace an entire machine when a single part of the machine is not functioning properly, you simply replace that part.

[Crazy]

there wont be 220AC, 90 is cap. All You can get is 90 AC in CA while running, nothing more.

If You ask why? For same reason why there is only 95% chance to hit.

http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=20203.msg169115#msg169115
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=20005.msg168254#msg168254
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=20396.msg169501#msg169501

[A concerned wastelander]

Stonewall should beat HH, its just not working at the moment.

I think I'll copy and paste that

Even if stonewall protected against it, it would mean you need to have it not to be knocked down 99% of the time you are hit by HH characters. We should not have to take a perk to correct a bad feature (or bug).

[Wallace]

Stonewall should beat HH, its just not working at the moment.

I think I'll copy and paste that

So after fixing it stonewall will beat HH always or like 50% of the time?

[Solar]

Well, that is no problem in itself. You're vulnerable to a character, you have defences against it - running, killing them before they get there. If you don't choose the perk that's your choice.

The only problem with it is bluesuits using it and risking nothing, which is why I said -5 Str default which is removed by PF or MPF.

[Wallace]

If you make HH a ST-5 check you'll never again see the HH trait picked by anyone...

[JovankaB]

If you make HH a ST-5 check you'll never again see the HH trait picked by anyone...

I will pick it. But I would prefer:

MPF: ST+1 (capped of course)
PF: ST+0
SPIKED: ST-3
BRASS: ST-4
UNARMED, ROCK: ST-5

Or something similar. And combined with drugs, so with 10 ST you could take buffout,
psycho and spiked knuckles and have 10 ST check (ST 10+3-3)

[DocAN.]

http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=20203.msg169115#msg169115
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=20005.msg168254#msg168254
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=20396.msg169501#msg169501

It need changes in the game engine, so "soon" mean exacly this.
Also if it will be implemented somehow, max AC will be decreased by armor and dont forget that it works only while running.

[Gaizk]

Well, that is no problem in itself. You're vulnerable to a character, you have defences against it - running, killing them before they get there. If you don't choose the perk that's your choice.

The only problem with it is bluesuits using it and risking nothing, which is why I said -5 Str default which is removed by PF or MPF.

Really solar, you should see HtH fighters in action, as well as SD fighters, really take your time test HOW sneaking works at the moment. There isnt much running or shooting when you dont know whats gonna hit you and when, its oh so very very easy to sneak up on people now its just ridiculous, and as people have posted all it takes is 1 hit and you're likely not getting up. Although I must admit the HtH situation is not so dire considering that with SD and a bursting weapon, 1 hit and YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY not getting up.

I truly dont mind how sneak works, I actually love the idea,  but you IMO, by a decade of FoT experience with silent running ninja bursting sneakers, I can decidedly tell you how broken is to be able to RUN and SNEAK. Tactics get thrown out of the window and it isnt as much as ambushing as its DESCENDING upon your victim, batman style and all...  Keep sneak the way it is, remove the ability to run Im extremely certain about that, a sneaker should plan carefully and tactically its hit, not just a man with a stealth field device (Oh there goes another idea, maybe running if a stealth boy is enabled, who knows!) Trust me, walking people is completely possible to detect with a motion sensor, running people might not give you the chance most of the time

[Killy]

u forgot 1 thing, these people ( sneakers + unarmed) risk nothing, they can run around trolling ( i can see maxed ac trolls during tc when AC cap will be removed), if they get killed they are back in 2 min, and all talk about balancing unarmed and sneak would make sense if it needed some stuff to use, any big gunner needs expensive stuff, all sneakers and unarmed need is a blue pajama or a cheap smg from encounter, since when something like this should be "balanced" ?? make them use expensive stuff or nerf it

[T-888]

I think we need to just play some time to actually see how they come into play , if these HH hth characters will become a serious problem i'm sure people will come up with constructive feedback and you all will be heard again , furthermore i highly doubt developers in that case will sit with their hands crossed.

In any case i would agree on some changes at the moment like END slightly affecting knock down chance , we already have perks for protection , another thing would be to boost tree trunk tights as it makes your legs stronger you might as well gain slight protection against KD. That perk right now is only for lockpick treasure hunter blueprint farmers.

make them use expensive stuff or nerf it

That's one of the most stupid things i have ever heard in this forum.

[Reiniat]

What do you think of the auto knock down from heavy handed?

Worst feature ever 

but also:

I think we need to just play some time to actually see how they come into play

[Killy]

why u say that? someone above noticed whats gonna happen soon, since sneak is OP, everyone will make new sneak alts, groups of sneak users 5-10 will camp important places and as it is now nothing can be done against it, doesnt matter if they use SD greas guns or nades in the future, the sneakers choose the time and place to strike and its impossible to detect 'em, the motion scanner thingy would be a nice idea if it revealed sneakers for the person who has it on in his inventory ...

and dunno about removing AC max cap but mark my words if it happens u will have hords of blue trolls running around wasting ur ammo looting stuff and gangbanging single loners not smart enough to run away when they see 2-3 blue pajama guys, if u kill the troll he will be back in a minute, we have seen it before and its gonna be even worse