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[Lordus]

 Hello wastelanders, devs.
 
 Is it possible to integrate permanent inflation into game economy system? If i remember correctly, there exists mathematic formula based on barter skill, specific price level for each npc trader,.. . My idea: prices of every stuff traded by npc traders would slowly raise over the time (another multiplier into price formula). This effect would slowly lower the real value of every player and gang caps savings and it would, if not clear, at least reduce the gap among longer and shorter playing players.

 So after one ingame year, same rifle should cost 2000 instead of 1000 caps (only example).

 I understand, that caps generating (spawning) ratio by NPC traders (simply, caps in their inventories) needs to be somehow related to inflation ratio.

  a) if the ratio would be same (inflation multiplier = npc caps generating multiplier), it would have only effects on gang and players caps savings. Your saved money would lower their value, you would be able to buy less stuff. So this would eliminate the gameplay problem, that after few weeks or months, players have enough caps to buy everything and their effort is undermined.

 I know that you can argue, that players could very early craft or buy huge amount of stuff, so they can later change it for actual amount of caps, but this argument will be obsolete next era. There will be need to maintain your weapons and armors using the very same stuff you want to maintain => no more zilions pieces of unused stuff on ground => no "stuff deposites for later time". Theoreticaly! I agree, that there would be some stuff, you dont need to use in PvP, PvE, crafting, maintaining whatever, and players would be able to early obtain that stuff for preserve value purpose only.

 => But this situation could be nothing less that good gameplay part of Fonline! Players who likes to trade would have another attribute in their gameplay (so second benefit of this idea).

 b) Now imagine situation, that caps spawning ratio by NPC traders would be quite lower than inflation ratio. At the early beginning of era, there would not be a problem to get  caps by selling stuff. (example: 1 armor = 25O caps, npc trader spawns 500 caps (per hour,..) => you can sell 2 armors per hour (for caps)). After some time, caps price of stuff would raise (by inflation), but the amount of caps generated by NPC traders would not (or only slower than inflation).  (1 armor = 500 caps, npc trader spawns 500 caps per hour => you can sell only 1 armor per hour. ).

 This would result into situation, that caps are loosing their value (everything is more expensive) AND (cumulative) caps are getting rare (de facto raising its value)  => Even you have "stuff deposites for later time" (or by crafting), you would not be able to obtain EASILY caps from npc traders (they will slowly lack of caps, because players will get more caps in exchange of constant amount of stuff). Also even you have huge amount of caps, you will loose its value, because of inflation (more caps needed to buy same stuff).
 
 What are the effects of this idea:

- Players would be forced to travel to distant locations to get caps. After beggining of the era because of numerous players on the server (like every post wipe period). Weeks or months after wipe (when many players will left, as usual (no whine, just fact)) because of inflation and shortage of caps amount in NPCs inventories.

- Players would be forced to more trade among them. Imagine situation: VSB gang has 100 000 caps. We collected that amount of caps, when 1 armor costed 10 000 caps (npc trader) => 100 k caps = 10 armors. But now, one armor costs 20 000 caps (npc traders). So we can afford only 5 armors. There is a new player (Wichura ), who needs to buy base, but he cannot collect enough caps (traders dont have caps). We contact him and offer him a trade: 50 000 caps for 5 armors (10 000 caps per armor, same amount like before destructive force of inflation). He is accepts the offer, because he knows, that he would need much longer time to obtain caps from npc traders. Clear?

- Players would be forced to barter (stuff for stuff, not for caps) not only with npc traders, but among players.

- The merchant gameplay of fonline would evolve.

Q: So if everything would be more expensive, i would need to spend f....g more time to obtain PvP stuff?
A: No, inflation will not have any direct impact on crafting, mining, scavenging. It will only force players to improvize, if they want to get stuff by other ways. And if you are clever, you can spend even less time to obtain PvP stuff!

Q: Will be there enough caps to obtain neccesary things in future?
A: Yes, you can do quests, TC, sell stuff to player or npc traders, hire your services to players and other, but it will not be as easy, as  it was.

Q: I think it will not work, i can bring zillions of hunting rifles looted in "Vs. encounters" and barter it for Combat Armor MK2 from NPC trader.
A: Of course you can barter stuff for stuff. Their caps price will raise simultaneously (because of inflation). But things that could be bought only in exchange for caps (bases, cars, train tickets  , mercs, ....) will become difficult to obtain (slowly). But there will still exists ways. Also no more trade behaviour with npcs: "I have zilion of caps and i take all your stuff".

Q: Would this be hard to implement?
A: I dont know. But it is not new map, new quest, new script. It is only rework of existing mechanism. If it does not work properly, it can be changed during era. (By changing inflation ratio, changing caps spawning ratio, reimplementing bank interrests...).

Q: Inflation will crash server, because you will get zilions of caps per brahmin hides.
A: No, because there will not be zilions of caps

[Stration]

What you propose would be:

1. completely pointless unless stealing caps from NPC's in random encounters is no longer possible,
2. easy to abuse,
3. extremely annoying to new players, especially those joining mid-session,
4. moderately annoying to freelancers.

But you already know that, right?

[Lordus]

What you propose would be:

1. completely pointless unless stealing caps from NPC's in random encounters is no longer possible,
2. easy to abuse,
3. extremely annoying to new players, especially those joining mid-session,
4. moderately annoying to freelancers.

But you already know that, right?

1) stealing caps from NPCs was never the main source of caps. Main source of caps was TC, then caps from NPC traders
2) Do you know Vedaras? Its his phrase.
3) Nonsense. New players, that joins in mid section (when half of post wipe players left) will have plenty of possibilities how to earn caps. And moreover, their effort would be more valued than effort of players that earn their huge value in the start of session, because of inflation. 
4) Nonsense. Instead of. "I have quadrilion of useless stuff, give me your gold, you stupd NPC trader!", they would need to use diiferent ways how to trade, even with players. In MMORPG. (Damn, i did not know that some player hates to play with players in multiplayer game).

[Johnnybravo]

I think Solar posted something like that is going to happen.

Personally I think this game is just gonna be even more annoying and unfriendly after wipe. (with inflation not playing for several weeks - which is absolutely normal for me - is going to translate into serious cash loss, on top of that annoying repair system or changes to leveling).

Just like bank interest was a failure this is going to be one as well.

[Stration]

1) stealing caps from NPCs was never the main source of caps. Main source of caps was TC, then caps from NPC traders

It's not relevant to what I wrote in my post. My intention was merely to bring up that one source of infinite easy caps that you conveniently omitted to mention in your simulation of what would happen should 'permanent inflation' be introduced.

2) Do you know Vedaras? Its his phrase.

And that invalidates my statement how? Or is it maybe an invitation for me to present some of the endless possibilities that your idea's implementation would enable players to abuse?

3) Nonsense. New players, that joins in mid section (when half of post wipe players left) will have plenty of possibilities how to earn caps. And moreover, their effort would be more valued than effort of players that earn their huge value in the start of session, because of inflation.

Dream on.

4) Nonsense. Instead of. "I have quadrilion of useless stuff, give me your gold, you stupd NPC trader!", they would need to use diiferent ways how to trade, even with players. In MMORPG. (Damn, i did not know that some player hates to play with players in multiplayer game).

I've done hundreds of trades; my items/caps come chiefly from interacting with other players (be it bartering, looting, whatever). I don't see how implementing 'permanent inflation' (whatever that means) could ever affect this in any positive way. What you propose is that we gradually lower the amount of new currency in circulation at the same time making the prices go higher. Since in player-to-player trades, the price of any given item is as a rule HIGHER than the base price of that item, it would effectively render players less able to afford to buy items from another player, therefore hindering player-to-player trading rather than facilitating it.

[T-888]

My idea: prices of every stuff traded by npc traders would slowly raise over the time (another multiplier into price formula).

 I understand, that caps generating (spawning) ratio by NPC traders (simply, caps in their inventories) needs to be somehow related to inflation ratio.

Why like this ? It doesn't make sense it's inflation out of thin air.

Player X trades random item at npc Y , random item gets more expensive because ...... ?

What makes sense each item of it's type gets more expensive or cheaper to buy/sell due to it's present amount. X item is 20 it costs less , Y item is 2 it cost is multiplied due to it's low stock + the cap ratio spawning would depend on the amount of total items. So you can't suck caps out of traders for ever , make items in his inventory decrease the price the longer they haven't been bought , one feature balances out the other.

I've read all your suggestion , good idea in general but i think wrong approach.

[Fizzle]

um... this is a wasteland, If you have the supplies you can charge what ever you want for it!

[Lordus]

It's not relevant to what I wrote in my post. My intention was merely to bring about that one source of infinite easy caps that you conveniently omitted to mention in your simulation of what would happen should 'permanent inflation' be introduced.

 Yes, there are a lot of ways how to get infinite caps. But sources of caps (stealing from npcs, looting Vs. encounters,..) would not counter inflation (in oposite to npc traders).

Dream on.

 Faction in mid session with that collected huge amount of caps would have two choices: spend their caps for lower amount of stuff (because of inflation), or trade with other players, who cannot easily obtain caps.

 

I've done hundreds of trades; my items/caps come chiefly from interacting with other players (be it bartering, looting, whatever). I don't see how implementing 'permanent inflation' (whatever that means) could ever affect this in any positive way.

 Most players gets mosts trades from interacting with NPC traders, not players. (If i omit "trades" among members of same faction). So your example dont represent the majority.

 There exist inflation in the game economy. But is not permanent. Many players wants car, car price rises, less players wants car, car price is decrease. Permanent inflation would raise the price level continually, without any decrease.

 

What you propose is that we gradually lower the amount of new currency in circulation at the same time making the prices go higher.

 Yes, the amount of new currency will gradually lower, but total amount of currency will still raises (there would still be new caps in traders, TC, quests,..).

 
 

Since in player-to-player trades, the price of any given item is as a rule HIGHER than the base price of that item, it would effectively render players less able to afford to buy items from another player, therefore hindering player-to-player trades rather than facilitating them.

 You forget one thing, my friend. 2238 is not growing economy. A lot of player disapears after start of session, the number of players in mid session decrease, but the amount of caps still raises. There is not any economical reason, why players (gangs) with bases, cars, PvP or PvE stuff and milions of caps needs to trade with each other. Only newbies wants to trade with players, but it is more begging than trading (because longer playing players realy dont need anything from newbies).

 If value of gangs caps savings will decrease, but on opposite, if it would be more harder for other players to get caps, they will be economicaly forced to cooperate (trade).


 

[Stration]

Yes, there are a lot of ways how to get infinite caps. But sources of caps (stealing from npcs, looting Vs. encounters,..) would not counter inflation (in oposite to npc traders).

I never said they would. If anything, more and more caps = greater and greater inflation rate, but I don't see how that relates to what I wrote before.

Faction in mid session with that collected huge amount of caps would have two choices: spend their caps for lower amount of stuff (because of inflation), or trade with other players, who cannot easily obtain caps.

So you're suggesting that a guy who knows how to obtain items that a major faction might be willing to buy from him at the same time has no idea how to get caps? Really?

Most players gets mosts trades from interacting with NPC traders, not players. (If i omit "trades" among members of same faction). So your example dont represent the majority.

Just because you don't trade with players from outside your faction doesn't mean nobody else does.

There exist inflation in the game economy. But is not permanent. Many players wants car, car price rises, less players wants car, car price is decrease. Permanent inflation would raise the price level continually, without any decrease.

And that would be good?

Yes, the amount of new currency will gradually lower, but total amount of currency will still raises (there would still be new caps in traders, TC, quests,..).

I'm sorry to say this, but you have no clue how money works. Also, TC money is to be gone after the next wipe, and these meager few caps that quests give you are not even worth mentioning.

You forget one thing, my friend. 2238 is not growing economy. A lot of player disapears after start of session, the number of players in mid session decrease, but the amount of caps still raises. There is not any economical reason, why players (gangs) with bases, cars, PvP or PvE stuff and milions of caps needs to trade with each other. Only newbies wants to trade with players, but it is more begging than trading (because longer playing players realy dont need anything from newbies). If value of gangs caps savings will decrease, but on opposite, if it would be more harder for other players to get caps, they will be economicaly forced to cooperate (trade).

In short: "adjust the game economy so that my faction can profit." The answer is no, but nice try.

[Lordus]

I never said they would. If anything, more and more caps = greater and greater inflation rate, but I don't see how that relates to what I wrote before.

The total amount of caps in game does not affect the price of stuff of NPC traders in 2238. This is how it works. => You cannot buy best stuff, because it is always sold out. My suggestion goes counter this fact, but inflation will be created generaly.

 

So you're suggesting that a guy who knows how to obtain items that a major faction might be willing to buy from him at the same time has no idea how to get caps? Really?

Players know how to get caps. Players will know, how to get caps from players, because of lack of caps of NPC traders in midsession and later. Just go to NCR and trade with caps holders. Or spend a lot of time to checking all npc traders, risk death because of PKs.. Best players find best way. Like before.
 
 

Just because you don't trade with players from outside your faction doesn't mean nobody else does.

Dont be agressive. Tell me, what is the ratio between player vs. NPC trade and player vs. player trade? 100:1? 1000:1?

 

And that would be good? (Inflation)

 I posted reasons why it would be good in my first topic. In general => more activities of players to preserve value => more players interaction => more populated locations!

I'm sorry to say this, but you have no clue how money works.

I am sorry, but you forget that we are talking about online game currency mechanics, not about free market environment. This currently artifical created economy environment of 2238 is more similar to central planned economy with fixed prices than to outside world.
 
 

Also, TC money is to be gone after the next wipe, and these meager few caps that quests give you are not even worth mentioning.

So you can still get zilion of caps by trading a huge amount of useless crap.
 
 

In short: "adjust the game economy so that my faction can profit." The answer is no, but nice try.

 Every faction has everything after few weeks or months. This would not change (because of slow rate of inflation). But after that time, there is no need for rich players to trade with others. And basic players are useless for them, only meat for guns. My idea could change this.

 

Why like this ? It doesn't make sense it's inflation out of thin air. Player X trades random item at npc Y , random item gets more expensive because ...... ?

 Inflation made by infinite source of every stuff.

What makes sense each item of it's type gets more expensive or cheaper to buy/sell due to it's present amount. X item is 20 it costs less , Y item is 2 it cost is multiplied due to it's low stock + the cap ratio spawning would depend on the amount of total items. So you can't suck caps out of traders for ever , make items in his inventory decrease the price the longer they haven't been bought , one feature balances out the other.

 I think that your idea is classic free market idea. But problem is, that 2238 has infinite sources of stuff that could totaly ruin (lower) the prices of some stuff. Also barter skill affects the final prices of stuff, so it has a very big potential to be abusable, so it would need much time and sources to test it.

 Also my idea aims to some purpuses and it could be generaly relatively easily regulated (by changing inflation ratio, reimplementing bank interrests, changing money spawning ratio,...), your idea could work in 2/3 of Npc traders, but rest could be "caps generators".

[Stration]

And that would be good? (Inflation)

You misquoted me by adding "(Inflation)" to what I wrote, changing the meaning of my question which clearly didn't pertain to inflation in general, but rather to the notion of infinitely increasing car prices.

As for all the points you've made, they pretty much bear out my initial claim, i.e. that introducing 'permanent inflation' would be quite pointless.

[Lordus]

As for all the points you've made, they pretty much bear out my initial claim, i.e. that introducing 'permanent inflation' would be quite pointless.

 If you are satisfied with how current economy ruins gameplay, then yes, it would be quite pointless.

[Stration]

If you are satisfied with how current economy ruins gameplay, then yes, it would be quite pointless.

How does it ruin gameplay? By allowing all players easy access to whatever they need? You're being ridiculous.

[Lordus]

On every discussion there exist same kind of people. Instead of argumentation and at least little effort to understand the facts about what are people writing, this kind of people chooses offensive aproach in disscusion and lacks good manners. Any argumentation with this kind of players has no sense. Sad is, that often you can not recognize this type of people, until you are in discussion.

 But i will give you last chance and last answer. Good gameplay is not about easy acces to whatever they need. Good gameplay is about entertaining overcome of obstacles. MMORPG offers player interaction as entertaining element. My idea offers motivation for players who dont need to interact, because they have easy acces to whatever they need. 

[Stration]

On every discussion there exist same kind of people. Instead of argumentation and at least little effort to understand the facts about what are people writing, this kind of people chooses offensive aproach in disscusion and lacks good manners. Any argumentation with this kind of players has no sense. Sad is, that often you can not recognize this type of people, until you are in discussion.

 But i will give you last chance and last answer. Good gameplay is not about easy acces to whatever they need. Good gameplay is about entertaining overcome of obstacles. MMORPG offers player interaction as entertaining element. My idea offers motivation for players who dont need to interact, because they have easy acces to whatever they need.

In short: "whoever disagrees with me is an ill-mannered moron."

Sorry to disappoint, but you're not in kindergarden anymore. This, dear sir, is the Internet. When you're in the wrong, people will call you out on it. And if, having been proven wrong, you decide to persist in pushing your point of view, it's only logical that your opposition should at that point cease to substantiate their claims which are, by then, self-evident.

Protip: next time you make a suggestion, think it over a tad more carefully. Don't just think about your own short-term benefits, but rather than that consider the big picture, preferably in long term.