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[Johnny Nuclear]

Randomness is part of life, without it it would become a bit boring, don't you think ?
Same will happen with game, without randomness we could start playing fonline in Excel tables :/

[Kilgore]

Merging skills, eliminating randomness..

..yeah. The future of this game is:
- removing SPECIAL and all skills because players will minmax/use alts anyway, so why not make all people using the same build (equality is a good thing),
- removing all traces of randomness because it's unfair and doesn't have anything in common with player's skill (fair play is a good thing).

Seriously: what a bullshit.

So all our pvp players leave this game.

I don't know anyone who has left this game because of randomness, though I know many that are not playing this game anymore. Btw in earlier sessions "random criticals" were much more devastating, with relatively large chance to cause instakill, not to mention shooting eyes from every direction.. ;]

[avv]

Because it'll be the same as if you need to click needed bodypart on player's model to hit it, not choose on special created window for example. Of course RT mode kills alot at RPG, as player plays more role than needed in it, character with lower sequence can shoot you 1st, only because player has better reaction or internet connection, what isn't right in RPG.

You can never achieve credible rpg settings because players will always know things the character can't know. Player's skill and knowledge will always have effect how the character manages ingame.

In your previous comment you basically said all randomness is bad (wtf..), now you say there is good randomness and bad randomness. Revisionist much?

I've only been about randomness in pvp.

Ah, so it's only good if it auto-fellates you and makes something "awesome", but losing something is a no-go? 

Basically it's about not messing with other people. It doesn't hurt me if someone encounters a nice random encounter and it doesn't hurt my enemy if I encounter it. But if someone defeats me or I defeat him due to random occurance, it starts to matter. 

But that's just how it is - luck ofcourse plays a role. The same way you can fail pretty bad due to a bad die throw, you can score a critical success as well. Where's the problem?

Problem are over the top crit effects that can decide who dies or lives. Best crits are ridiculously strong compared to failed crits or weakest crits. It's mostly problem in small scale pvp because losing one man there matters more. In big scale fights strategy decides the winner.

To simplify it even further, what would any boardgame look like if you take away the dices, or make it so the dices always land on the same number the player wants, like avv said? Would Monopoly be a better game if there'd be no dices at all?

Monopoly is designed around the dice, fonline pvp can do without it. We have enough factors and features to form interesting settings that player can apply for their benefit. For example sneaking is very interesting and fun and there's no randomness included. You don't randomly show up from either 20 or 10 hexes, but the visibility is fixed depending on skill% and enemy PE. This helps the sneaker make plans, execute those plans and get satisfying and expected results.

[Johnnybravo]

Of course that randomness is not needed in competitive environment, but many people are not open for changes.

The biggest problem of a game without any random rolls is the fact player has to decide those now. Usually most players are not interested in trivial choices so they are ok with server or client pulling out random choice (like attack animations).
Also take note that only random factor caused by pseudogenerator can be removed. I cannot do anything with random factor caused by connection/weather/human factor, so the game will NEVER run in exactly same situations, no matter that it could happen every time, because there is no need to make a roll for it.

Another big challenge in Fonline is rather shallow combating, but this is something that is possible to be improved. I personally think that it should be possible to build on rather expanded rules (I want to have called shots for burst attacks as well, at least). Character creation is a little more complicated, because skills can no longer change any chances. For skills like doctor or first aid, this is not a problem, but for combat skills it completely changes their purpose. It really can't be just raw damage increase, but unlocking feature, and allowing to attack further without losing damage or something works correctly (eg. it should be possible to add requirements of 200 in skill to attack eyes).

removing SPECIAL and all skills because players will minmax/use alts anyway, so why not make all people using the same build (equality is a good thing),

You can imagine that without anything random there is no way to have special anymore. Luck has to become something else (it can be for example Finesse - increasing limb damage, and bonus from called shots).
Another example is gamble, but that is unused already so no loss.

It would, it would be fucking boring.

This is totally different thing. In Ice Hockey you don't gain a control over puck by tossing a coin either.

Well, it would be definitely interesting to have your rules translated into test server for people to check this out.

Well the plan is to implement it to see how much can Fonline do :d.

[T-888]

I read all posts , i see no point of discussing randomness in general and especially randomness in fonline:2238. Some things are just a matter of opinion , not everything is black and white and therefore cannot be one truth. I believe this is the case.

I can say this , there has to be a good mix of randomness , the game doesn't have to be completely without random factors for it to be enjoyable , competitive or even skill based in that matter. For example the most popular and competitive first person shooter game in the world , has some random factors for burst weapons but is still skill based , luck and randomness has it's place , yet it's counter strike. I know it's a different game , but you can't deny that some principles do apply.

I wish that fonline2238 would be less random , but i fear that eradicating randomness completely wouldn't be the right solution.

I have spoken , i may not talk again in this topic , don't even try to quote this post. I don't give a fuck alright.

This may be another 10 page topic , in witch i don't wish to participate.

[Reiniat]

T-888 is just right. i just wanted to know devs opinion, not community opinion. 10 pages disccusion leading to nowhere is useless. Everybody has a opinion, and nobody will change of opinion.
So, again. did devs think about remove a bit of randomness?
I didnt even say "remove all random facts, make this game an 2D shooter" read my godamnit first post, i like random fails, i think all skill rolls are fine, % of hit is fine too.
I just feel a little void when most of my combat has to depend of random facts, it makes me feel like im not doing anything at all.
  Surf post made disapoint me, if RPG really are all random then i should go cut my veins, but since it is not true it couldnt care me less.

[Handyman]

Sorry but i want to say....


I love to be killed randomly by Enclave


Randomstuff in Fonline rocks, it's best thingy scince inventing electricity.
It makes game so interesting...

updates are also random

[AdorableRage]

And what do you want? Boring constant damage? The damage only needs to be nerfed a bit, just to make players live a bit longer, but it doesn't require constant numbers. Just return all 10mm - laser pistol and other low tier weapons to thier original low damage, and lower higher weapon damage instead, make armor really protect not only for style and nerf crits effects like KO and instakill that instantly makes player out of game. There shouldn't be possibilities to kill player in 1 second, exclude cases when 10 people shooting him at the same time. But constant damage or other possibilities has nothing to do with it, if you want not to die from crits fast.
And this is RPG, your characters is in game, not you, he might miss, hit non vital part of body, he's human, not bot, you can't be sure for 100% in all your actions.

this right here is awsome....yes nerf pvp dmg! make it so snipers can just camp in the back and insta kill people....nerfed dmg would be mroe fun pvp and more tactic other then waiting around a corner for somebody to walk by...and an rpg wiht out randomnes?
i take it u never played fallout 2 or baulders gate....ive never played a dungeons and dragons table top game but i know they both follow the same type of rolls wich is dice rolls...wich is random....u want constant dmg and have no chance at getting an unlucky shot go play black ops...

i love farming and there one guy left and we both at low hp i move in for the kill....get a bad shot then he crits me in the head lmao so funny

[Haraldx]

because the actual combat system is so odd, you make an eyeshot and blind, bypass, triple damage, etc. but you cant say "oh yes im a good player, did you see that?" because in the end its only matter of posibilityes, not the player real-skills. with the time click and wait for what happens becomes unsatisfactory.

RPG games were never about somekind of real life skill. RPG combat is highly influenced by your character - The level he has, the skills you have trained for the character, the items you have gathered/crafted for your character. In RPGs high real life skill means the skill to make a well made character and generally know about the game.

[Johnnybravo]

Not true, the whole name has been misused. It stands for role playing game, however that does not mean the character you control has to be controlled by his or her stats. By definition it IS kind of roleplaying, but it it not necessity to make a good game.
Additionally roleplaying might be just as well the fact your character has a role in story - like being Gordon Freeman in Cra Half-Life.

Anyway, the question is whether it is possible and maybe whether it would work, not whether it's going to happen, because it is not. So no need to start any drama.

[avv]

Anyway, the question is whether it is possible and maybe whether it would work, not whether it's going to happen, because it is not. So no need to start any drama.

Indeed, besides the only really problematic random occurances in fonline are just crits and random encounters.
Crits are just over the top when it comes to effects and random encounters are nothing but a nuisance.

Gladly hitchance is basically always 95%, it would blow badly if we had to deal with constant 30-70% hitchances. It wouldn't be that bad for burst, but for single shot guns it'd make combat random as hell.

In fact the game could do some more randomness when it comes to encounter content, plus crafting and gathering outcomes. Randomness in these areas are actually interesting and fun.

[RavenousRat]

Gladly hitchance is basically always 95%, it would blow badly if we had to deal with constant 30-70% hitchances. It wouldn't be that bad for burst, but for single shot guns it'd make combat random as hell.

Lolwhat, it will affect both bursts and single shots equally, may be even bursts more, just imagine you survived 30 bursts from avenger minigun in point blank, only because 1st or 2nd or 3rd bullet of 40 rolled <70? ;p Avenger minigun will to in point blank damage to bluesuiter equal from 8 to 440 without perks and ammo adj.
Situation 1:
Bluesuiter was hit for 8 damage being bursted from avenger mini in point blank!
Situation 2:
Bluesuiter was hit for 440 damage being bursted from avenger mini in point blank!
Yeah,

It wouldn't be that bad for burst

right. Not much difference. Stable constant damage. Try to burst with AR with low SG skill but with 60-70% to hit in point blank, the damage will be totally chaotic, from "miss" and "10 damage" to "200-300 damage"

Crits are just over the top when it comes to effects and random encounters are nothing but a nuisance.

So you don't like randomness because of overpowered crits? So why not to suggest to make them less powerful or ability to resist them, etc. No, you want to make combat plain, without random factors, just:
You were hit for 20 damage.
You were hit in the head for 40 damage. (x2 damage mult for example)
You again were hit in the head for 40 damage.
Damn, you again were hit in the head for 40 damage.
And again were hit in the head for 40 damage.
And again.
And now you, at last, died.

2 guys meet in the wasteland.
1 has 100 HP, second 50 HP, both deal 20 damage per shot.
80 / 30
60 / 10
40 / death.
They meet again.
40 / death.
Again.
40 / death.
Again.
40 / death.
Again.
etc.
Nice.

About encounters, Badger made a suggestion here long time ago
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15546.0
but level scaling of course isn't good, one of reasons why FOnline is great MMO is because it doesn't have that silly thing.

If not a suggestion above, then atleast make encounters hard to escape by some other way, so you can't just leave it by running on grid, and of course make them less frequent than now, or atleast some seconds CD between encounters, so you won't get 10 encounters in one square. It'll produce more taxi alts to make trips safers, so it'll require changing it skill. Right now party outdoorsman skill equals to highest outdoorsman skill from all members, while it can be changed to lowest one, so outdoorsman will be individual skill for you and OD-alts will die. It'll make cars useful, but it's ok, as they consume resources, require maintenance and you need to buy/steal it first.

And your complains has nothing to do with "random" and "constant" things.

[avv]

Players from requiem could tell their experiences from there. In my understanding crits don't have much say in pvp there.

Yeah,right. Not much difference. Stable constant damage. Try to burst with AR with low SG skill but with 60-70% to hit in point blank, the damage will be totally chaotic, from "miss" and "10 damage" to "200-300 damage"

That's weird because I've exped about 4 sg chars who started with 50% sg burst hit chance and they simply dealt less damage with the smaller hit chance. No over the top effects noticed, except more total misses ofcourse.

So you don't like randomness because of overpowered crits? So why not to suggest to make them less powerful or ability to resist them, etc. No, you want to make combat plain, without random factors

Now you're just making things up. In my opinion crit effects are simply too random, either too weak or too strong. Crits can't be plain because we got targetting areas with differend effects. Atm headshot can cause either 10 damage or 120 damage and KO.
What I'd do, I'd nerf the over the top effect, buff the weakest effect and remove eye targetting.
I'd also put range limit for headshot. Perhaps 15hexes (30 for scoped weapons). This means that snipers would more often shoot targetted shots in torso and deal raw damage and knockdowns. In close range they would shoot headshots but risk the close proximity. Cripplers could shoot arm and legshots from all ranges. Groinshot could be used against some overpowered armor with high defenses or against specific type of char.
I'd scrap knockouts and change them into concussion. This would mean getting those red action points as in KO but you can't do anything else but walk.

If not a suggestion above, then atleast make encounters hard to escape by some other way, so you can't just leave it by running on grid, and of course make them less frequent than now, or atleast some seconds CD between encounters, so you won't get 10 encounters in one square. It'll produce more taxi alts to make trips safers, so it'll require changing it skill. Right now party outdoorsman skill equals to highest outdoorsman skill from all members, while it can be changed to lowest one, so outdoorsman will be individual skill for you and OD-alts will die. It'll make cars useful, but it's ok, as they consume resources, require maintenance and you need to buy/steal it first.

But doesn't this mean that if we encounter something after dying, we keep dying all the time because we can't fight since we don't have gear after dying? Would have to make gear tents next to every spawn.

[Surf]

Not true, the whole name has been misused. It stands for role playing game, however that does not mean the character you control has to be controlled by his or her stats. By definition it IS kind of roleplaying, but it it not necessity to make a good game.
Additionally roleplaying might be just as well the fact your character has a role in story - like being Gordon Freeman in Cra Half-Life.

So 99% of all videogames ever released are RPGs as you "play a role in that game!".Brilliant!  Roleplaying in a cRPG should always come from the characters skill projected by skills in the given ruleset, not some makebelieve stuff, dressing dolls or setting up self imposed constraints even though the game doesn't even care ("My character is a paladin, so I cannot slay this man because he is a paladin! The game doesn't care but I do!11") - basically LARPing.

Reading such absurd stuff I no longer wonder about such suggestions like this here.

[Johnnybravo]

I'd also put range limit for headshot. Perhaps 15hexes (30 for scoped weapons).

It does not matter how you do critical hits if they are still random, while still being the only way to win the combat.
 Bursts are quite simple, yet well working feature. Sure they can crit for absurd amount of damage, and make combat fast, but that's still ok, because fast combat is not necessarily bad, and crit does not make any huge difference (because you cannot obtain surplus of Power Armors and damage jumps up from zero to kill only for gatling laser).
 But single shots themself do really shit damage, and are all just random. Limiting them like "I don't want anyone to shoot eyes" is just distraction from original Fallout way, and not really necessary (you have the targeting doll already there, all in default UI, changing it would change that as well), it's just much easier to change the stuff beyond players POV. You are absolutely right, that buffing lowest effect and nerfing the best one will result in less random game, but that can be either absurd amount like crit for 80 and hit for 70, or it will still be life/death. There is something that must make fast shot viable (basically "single shot burst"), and there is something that must do everything else some kind of "crippler" role. This would probably mean that single shot weapons would never deal huge numbers by just one shot, but they could still have fatal effects of crippling or being able to do meaningful damage (depending on trait choice and as well player input). Crippling can be possibly made less random as well, you can have some ideas.

Though no matter how you look at it, balance in Fallout Tactics always seems like the best what can be done with Fonline.

Reading such absurd stuff I no longer wonder about such suggestions like this here.

Your opinion is so relevant that it expands this discussion with something meaningful... no wait you are just trolling.