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[_Youkai_]

Youkai, you are just sniper lover not a tester.

I think I am just a good player, who at least, knows a little bit how is to play as critical sniper.

[Izual]

LOL

Haters gonna hate If you don't accept posts that disagree with you, I suggest instead of posting a topic you directly PM developers with your... reports...

[zuhardu]

I think the builds are fine as they are: open space - sniper wins (as it should), small quarters - bg wins. It's perfectly normal that in a open field a bg should lose vs a sniper. Wich brings up our second problem: most of the pvp wars are in TC, wich means in open space. So, yes, snipers are better in this wipe. But if we think that bg and bursters rulled wasteland until now, I think it is fair that snipers have their turn too.

Balancing classes can't be easy, the specialized snipers actually have low HP, increasing bg weapons damage can bring "1 shoot - 1 kill" back, wich will spoil the game for snipers, like is now spoiled for bg players.

Of course, that is my humble opinion no flame intended. I guess we can only wait and see.

[manero]

Haters gonna hate If you don't accept posts that disagree with you, I suggest instead of posting a topic you directly PM developers with your... reports...

I dont know u man so i dont know what are u talking about, u never banned me, few time helped me so why i should hate u? U just made me laugh about that 2008, thats all. Dont take it personally.

Huh my 'ugly' reports...I accept other posts only if that pots contain good arguments. I am bad pk, member of pk gang, 'role play' destroyer and others but im also experienced player and its sad that u suggest such a thing. I thought u should want to talk with such kind of players in public about game mechanic and draw conclusions.

ps. stop trolling Izual, i started to think that u are the one who hate someone.

[RavenousRat]

in Hinkley

In Hinkley just don't play for BGers, poor BGers can't do anything there if only they score multi crits in a row. Even in close quarters I'm not running away from BGer, I just shooting his eyes with plasma and he's bursting me, we're doing it again and again, and then he's dying even if I was unlucky on crits. Of couse I'm not pure sniper, because of 244 HP + thoughness, but still it's pure luck, sometimes you can instakill, sometimes knock out, sometimes you can crit 5 times in a row and have only multiplied damage with no effects, and your build won't affect these effects, so it's not the case (better critical perk have any sniper), there's too much randomness, but I don't think things like knockout and instakill should work on players at all, such system was created in single player Fallout, where you were alone and they were up to 10 or 15 NPCs against you, they almost never used aimed shots on you and I can remember only knock downs from critical hits in torso or groin. So shooting thier eyes was possible if you focus on weapon skill (not science/repair/etc) giving to you power critical shots that kills NPCs with 1-2 shots. Right now knock out almost equal instakill, if blindness or crippling can be avoided by docing yourself, knocking out is the same as if your internet provider lagged for a long time, you're just lying on ground and can't do anything, it should be much less time that it's now, may be 2 or 3 seconds max., after that you should be restored. Instakills should be simply removed, and it's obvious, it's MMO, where're alot players, he came there to play, but he died with 1st shot only because that guy rolled good crit with his deteriorated mauser? And about damage, armor bypass is almost equal if your target was a bluesuiter! Is it ok? May be quality of armor should give bonus to safethrow against bypass and work like anti-crit, so if you're in jacket of couse it'll be easier to bypass your armor, while BA will give good protection against it.
Also BG and SG/EW should be nerfed, they both killing too fast and it doesn't bring fun to game. Or alteast make armor more work like armor than decoration of your character, providing more defence against criticals and bypassing.

[manero]

Why don't play BG? Because he suxx balls? So why he suxx balls? Maybe because is nerfed to max? Why he is nerfed to max? For balance? What balance if he is useless? Whoaa, there is no balance ingame? Yeah!

-----

And one more thing, i reported my conclusions about Hinkley to Solar via PM around 3-4 months ago. But didnt get answer. What a pity...

[avv]

I've played the whole wipe with crit pistolero. I'd say crits aren't overpowered but too unpredictable. I've died multiple times because of wrong crit even though I shot first but also won fights because of undeserved luck. Crits require more reliability and less over the top effects.
Fighting especially bursters is pretty easy, you can take distance or hide behind npcs and their damage is reduced dramatically. I like it that players can affect their chances to win with ingame actions, but the same rule doesn't apply to crits. Only thing that can be done is to turn away to prevent eyecrits but it's a bit retarded and headcrits can cause awful damage and knockouts aswell.

I think the builds are fine as they are: open space - sniper wins (as it should), small quarters - bg wins. It's perfectly normal that in a open field a bg should lose vs a sniper.

It's not that simple. Sniper can quickly shoot instant eyeshot against a big gunner even from point blank. But big gunner can't do much in longer range.

[Hololasima]

I think the builds are fine as they are: open space - sniper wins (as it should), small quarters - bg wins.

Yes, it should be as you said, BUT current situation is different.

Do you think that single two burst big gunner can destroy two small guns with 223 pistol in some small building ? If you think yes, so answer is no. He cant. Because bypasses or by weapon drop(crippled hands)

Just try some team test when you will have one BG against two small gunners with max crit. You'll see

[Izual]

Huh my 'ugly' reports...

Your sight of BG/SG is a decent one, but you are discrediting it with making a humoristic first post of three lines. You posted a picture of critical hits logs in Hinkley, why didn't you put a similar thing in your first post, together with your arguments and opinions? What I am saying is that it'll be much easier to argue about the game, and to debate about needed changes if reports were made in a serious way, instead of posting the topic and then starting to debate. So yes, even if your point is valid and your posts serious and valuable, your first post is still, as you said, ugly.

@topic: I think both Youkai and Manero have valid points. The problem isn't that Snipers are too powerful, the problem is that you have no way to resist to these criticals. Improving Stonewall and removing Instant Kills might help to balance a bit. On another subject, I think big guns could welcome some damage boost, but also as a drawback a range nerf. It would be nonsense if minigunners were able to kill you at 35 hex, in a world where 50 hex is the max range. Big guns should be tremendous, yes, but at 20 hex max (except for some like LSW/M60, which are fine as they are). If I sum up, that's my ideas : improving criticals resistances (f.e. Stonewall), nerfing a bit miniguns range, improving all Big Guns' damage (And I would personally like the flamer's range to be upgraded).

Edit: Also I forgot, adding "scoped" perk to all sniping rifles, so that finally they stop being as deadly at one hex as they are at fifty.

[_Youkai_]

Do you think that single two burst big gunner can destroy two small guns with 223 pistol in some small building ? If you think yes, so answer is no. He cant. Because bypasses or by weapon drop(crippled hands)

"Do you think that single two burst big gunner can destroy two small guns with 223 pistol in some small building ?"
Maybe???

Try the inverse now: Do you think single SG with 223 pistol can destroy two BGs with lsw/avenger im some small building?


Worst argument until now.  


[edit~]
Also, considering that crippler char needs to cripple twice, as we know, every pvp char have skill Doctor.

[Hololasima]

"Do you think that single two burst big gunner can destroy two small guns with 223 pistol in some small building ?"
Maybe???

Try the inverse now: Do you think single SG with 223 pistol can destroy two BGs with lsw/avenger im some small building?


Worst argument until now.  


[edit~]
Also, considering that crippler char needs to cripple twice, as we know, every pvp char have skill Doctor.

Worst argument ever ? In small space, who should win ? SG or BG ? If you know answer, then not mine, but your example was bad ...

[avv]

The problem isn't that Snipers are too powerful, the problem is that you have no way to resist to these criticals.

I agree. However ways to resist for example bursts are 1: hide behind npc 2: take distance so that enemy has more spread. These are both great ingame features because they are player's actions. If the resistance comes from character build like perks, it will just encourage minmaxing and making powerful builds rather than playing smart in the actual combat situation. In addition buffing or nerfing perks and builds just leads to what's been going on since ever: builds rise and fall, no actual progress is made regarding how pvp rolls.
Best way in my opinion would be to add more features that players can use to achieve victory. In other words: more micro.

[Crazy]

One idea to boost BG without making them OP: change spread... Low spread at beginning, with higher spread at end. Let's say at least 1/2 of bullets on central path until 20 hex, 1/3 at 30 (like now) and 1/4 at 35 (with progress between each obviously). Playing minigunner would be a constant control of your optimal range: slaughter in small rooms, normal efficence a med range, low efficience at max range.

[Solar]

I don't want to nerf Criticals themselves. I think the tables are fine as they are now. They hurt, but then getting shot by an Avenger with no Armour on will hurt too.

How they will be toned down is through armour and different perks.


I think we need a new attribute for the armours, reusing something like AC or DR directly isn’t too good. But this attribute would then minus off from the crit chance.

For example a CA, if it had CM (crit minus) of 25, then shooting at the torso with 10 luck, 3* more crits and finesse would be 10+15+10-25 = 10% instead of 35%. (Just random numbers for now, theres no saying CA will be 25.)

You can even have separate helmets, so that aiming to head and eyes can be mitigated by wearing helmets.


In terms of the perks, there should be lots of new ones (Including a lower level of BRD that gives an extra 1, for a total of +5 – a boost to BG)

A quote from the (semi) WIP perks:

Anti Crit            
Quick Recovery   3   AG 6   Effects of Knockout/down/lost turn are reduced to 1/3rd   1
Stonewall   6   ST 6   En Roll to ignore knockout, En-5 roll to ignore knockdown   1
Iron Grip   9   ST 6   En Roll to ignore Arm Cripple, En-5 roll to ignore Weapon Drop   1
Man of Steel   12   En 6 + Str 6   Gives -10 on the critical table to hits targetting you   1

I should really put some leg protecting perk in there too.

Or, since you need higher skill to be a sniper, dodging should be better against snipers than against the BG too:

Dodging            
HtH Evade   3   Unarmed/Melee 75%   Gives 20% AC if only Unarmed or Melee weapons are in either hand   1
HtH Evade+   6   Unarmed/Melee 150%   Gives 40% AC if only Unarmed or Melee weapons are in either hand   1
Dodger   9   AG 8   Gives +20 to AC   1
Dodger+   12   AG 10   Gives +40 to AC   1

I would really prefer to balance them by adding more depth to the char design system … rather than just altering crit tables or adding a little to the Avenger.

[Hololasima]

In terms of the perks, there should be lots of new ones (Including a lower level of BRD that gives an extra 1, for a total of +5 – a boost to BG)

Good to hear, yeah.

And what mean this with BRD ? So we still should be able to take 2x BRD and it will have more +dmg ? Or u just didnt understand what you meant with it