Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Reginmund]

How does this repay to the victim what the thief has done?

Yeah it would seem a lot of people would jump on this bandwagon of getting their stuff back. I'd be pretty annoyed at losing stuff to thieves too but you just have to let it go. Both you and I may shrug it off while any new player will be pissed with essentially losing time spent of gathering/crafting/farming etc. The compromise here however is that the thief if caught can't just go get killed and terrorise yourself or others within a matter of minutes. (that is of course this jailing/grunt work idea works)

It may encourage more alts or remaking characters but its up to them to bother leveling a thief all over again if they get sick of being jailed.

And more minmaxing.

Well i haven't stated any requirements on it but why bother to pump stats into speech if the activity will be just as tedious as the others but in a different form (well i hope it can be this way).

[avv]

Yeah it would seem a lot of people would jump on this bandwagon of getting their stuff back. I'd be pretty annoyed at losing stuff to thieves too but you just have to let it go. Both you and I may shrug it off while any new player will be pissed with essentially losing time spent of gathering/crafting/farming etc. The compromise here however is that the thief if caught can't just go get killed and terrorise yourself or others within a matter of minutes. (that is of course this jailing/grunt work idea works)

What's wrong here that nobody gets the stolen item. What's the feature good for then? Thief is pissed off and so it the victim.
In addition what's it good for anyone that the thief has to perform some boring tasks somewhere? If it's supposed to be some sort of hard labour then it should produce something for someone. It'd be completely okay if the thief had to do box hauling until he has repaid the stolen goods, the caps go to the victim's bank account.
Then again why wouldn't any safe city just shoot the thief and give the stolen item back to the victim? A rednick tagging was the best feature regarding this matter, it existed 2 wipes ago. You did something bad in town, you got redtagged and everyone knew it was safe to shoot you. The tagging lasted for several hours even after death.

[Reginmund]

What's wrong here that nobody gets the stolen item. What's the feature good for then?

You did something bad in town, you got redtagged and everyone knew it was safe to shoot you

Well you are welcome to add something to this idea that will take care of this problem but the thing is, that is all it is, an idea. Also the main driver for this idea was the fact that thieves can just come back and do as they please. Also i wasn't around 2 wipes ago and i like that redflagging, it's like they have a list of offenders and it actually works to a degree. So why did they get rid of it?

[avv]

Well you are welcome to add something to this idea that will take care of this problem but the thing is, that is all it is, an idea. Also the main driver for this idea was the fact that thieves can just come back and do as they please.

No idea why redtagging was removed.

A way to force thief to repay the stolen items: if something was stolen from you, you can go to the local lawkeeper and say the thieve's name and items that were lost. The thief gets permanent rep loss. Only way to bring the rep back is to return the items to the lawkeeper, or equal ammount of caps, in addition a fine equal to for example 1000 caps is required. When the victim arrives the town, one of the guards tells him the sheriff wants to talk to him. He goes to the sheriff and gets a chance to take the items or caps and forgive the thief, resulting in the thief getting back his rep.
This would be pretty much un-abusable, except with alts but it takes a while to level a thief alt.

[cannotspace]

What's wrong here that nobody gets the stolen item. What's the feature good for then? Thief is pissed off and so it the victim.

thief doesn't get pissed because he didn't lose anything, thieves are always (except some very rare occasions) naked, only thing they lost was the stolen stuff... which wasn't his anyways so no loss there

[Reginmund]

thief doesn't get pissed because he didn't lose anything, thieves are always (except some very rare occasions) naked, only thing they lost was the stolen stuff... which wasn't his anyways so no loss there

I feel you are speaking out of context here, within the current system what you say is correct but what avv was commenting on was the idea i had put forth. Basically to jail a caught thief away and forced to complete tasks before being released which will take up time rather than have them get killed and be protected again to return and terrorise the masses once more.

No idea why redtagging was removed.

A way to force thief to repay the stolen items: if something was stolen from you, you can go to the local lawkeeper and say the thieve's name and items that were lost. The thief gets permanent rep loss. Only way to bring the rep back is to return the items to the lawkeeper, or equal ammount of caps, in addition a fine equal to for example 1000 caps is required. When the victim arrives the town, one of the guards tells him the sheriff wants to talk to him. He goes to the sheriff and gets a chance to take the items or caps and forgive the thief, resulting in the thief getting back his rep.
This would be pretty much un-abusable, except with alts but it takes a while to level a thief alt.

You could essentially still lose items supposing you had lots of miscellaneous items as a noob amongst other useful items but failed to notice it was gone after the thief made off with the stuff. What sort of check will allow the thief to incur a rep loss because it could be a really good thief and is still protected after making off with some guns, ammo etc. I could just let them steal off me and name them to the sheriff and not go collect the repayment to let them keep the rep loss.

[avv]

You could essentially still lose items supposing you had lots of miscellaneous items as a noob amongst other useful items but failed to notice it was gone after the thief made off with the stuff.

This demands the victim have a little awerness what's going on around him and his inventory.

What sort of check will allow the thief to incur a rep loss because it could be a really good thief and is still protected after making off with some guns, ammo etc.

What you mean what sort of check? The thief simply loses the rep, no checks needed. If you put checks everywhere it will just encourage alts and minmaxing.

I could just let them steal off me and name them to the sheriff and not go collect the repayment to let them keep the rep loss.

You could do that. Nothing wrong with that.

[Reginmund]

What you mean what sort of check? The thief simply loses the rep, no checks needed. If you put checks everywhere it will just encourage alts and minmaxing.

So we can basically ignore successful stealing altogether and you are proposing a victim only reporting system? If not what will prevent abuse of it where i create an alt and just name the person and a phantom item being stolen from me whilst i was in said town. Or produce several alts to have stuff be stolen from this particular character just to keep them in a perma rep loss with the town.

[avv]

So we can basically ignore successful stealing altogether and you are proposing a victim only reporting system? If not what will prevent abuse of it where i create an alt and just name the person and a phantom item being stolen from me whilst i was in said town.

In my eyes succesful stealing occurs when the player doesn't know who stole from him, not when the characters didn't. It's up to players to watch their enviroment and monitor their inventory, not the characters. We players are the ones playing the game after all.
Obviously you wouldn't be able to make up stories to the sheriff. 

Or produce several alts to have stuff be stolen from this particular character just to keep them in a perma rep loss with the town.

Which way you mean? Create theif alts or thief-trap alts?

[Reginmund]

In my eyes succesful stealing occurs when the player doesn't know who stole from him, not when the characters didn't. It's up to players to watch their enviroment and monitor their inventory, not the characters. We players are the ones playing the game after all.
Obviously you wouldn't be able to make up stories to the sheriff. 

Sounds fair, just exploring the limitations of the idea you have. One question is supposing the thief is successful (e.g. stealing something while you try to trade and you know what is stolen, maybe you just had a handle of stuff not a lot) would said thief be unprotected or protected till you reported the crime to the sheriff.

Which way you mean? Create theif alts or thief-trap alts?

Sorry rereading what i wrote was confusing me as well, meant to describe thief-traps, alts for them to steal from just to give them perma rep drop.

Also another though occurred what will prevent a thief from selling stuff on to regain rep to a positive value or would said thief incur the rep drop and no positive rep gain till returning stolen goods, paying fines/compensation? Or will the thief also incur poor relations with the merchants?

[avv]

One question is supposing the thief is successful (e.g. stealing something while you try to trade and you know what is stolen, maybe you just had a handle of stuff not a lot) would said thief be unprotected or protected till you reported the crime to the sheriff.

It's a tricky part. IMO he shouldn't be, since the player knows who stole from him and should have the right to deal wasteland justice. But then again it would be hard for thieves to practice their art. Further features would be required to be implemented to allow thieves steal without being seen. Since at the moment you can pretty much always tell who stole from you.

Then again we could think of it this way: the cities most likely don't want random wastelanders taking justice in their own hands and would rather have crimes reported to the authorities.

alts for them to steal from just to give them perma rep drop.

You wouldn't necessarily need alts since you can report the thief multiple times. I see nothing wrong with this, punishment must follow from crimes. Criminals shouldn't be tolareted inside cities where most people just want to mind their own bussiness.

Also another though occurred what will prevent a thief from selling stuff on to regain rep to a positive value or would said thief incur the rep drop and no positive rep gain till returning stolen goods, paying fines/compensation? Or will the thief also incur poor relations with the merchants?

Selling stuff for rep is awful feature. I just sold some random crap in ncr and got 1k rep right away. The ways to receive +rep should be looked into more thoroughly.

[chaosgoblyn]

It just seems dumb. In the Old West if someone was rifling through a cowboys packs whether he took anything or not you would still expect him to get shot down and noone really care. I feel like the law in the post-apocalypse would be closer to that than our modern era where even if someone tried to steal from you for some reason you can't just demolish them. Even so, I feel like if someone had their hands on my person without my consent I'd be within my rights to knock them out or something.

[Badger]

I say we disable player versus player stealing until someone has a brainwave on how to make it an intelligent and interesting feature. Right now it's just a nuisance that irritates more players than it entertains.

Edit: I should elaborate. Stealing could easily have a role in the faction system - I can't imagine an NPC faction in the game that wouldn't have use for a someone able to obtain equipment or information without drawing attention. Its potential applications are sufficient without the alt-fest that is PvP stealing. I sympathise with thieves, but I really can't see how a PvP stealing system could exist that wasn't made easier by having a thief alt to support your main or anything similar.

[HertogJan]

Stealing is fine the way it is, it's nerved enough.
The whole problem is in the fact that people assume guarded towns means you're protected against people who want to do bad things.
The whole player vs. character discussion is crap. You have to see things from your character's point of view, not you as player.

To "fix" some of the problems, some changes should be made:
- when losing protection, for whatever reason, the unprotected status should stick for 1-3 real-time hours. Perhaps the time could depend on reputation. For instance:  antipathy (-300 to -900) or worse means the max penalty of 3 hours, neutral means 2 hours, accepted (300 to 900) or better means 1 hour. This should be calculated after the reputation drop from the action that caused you to lose the protected status.
- unprotected people caused trouble for the npc faction. They should be shot on sight by the guards when they enter a town
- unprotected status should be expanded to encounters as well. As unprotected people caused trouble with that specific faction, they should be shot on sight in encounters with that faction as well
- only guards loot, no matter who shot who. Looters should be shot on sight, lose protection and get the same reputation penalty as thieves. People who lost stuff to PK in guarded towns like NCR should be able to buy it back from the sheriff at a fee of 25% of the value (guards have to make a living too). For thieving victims this would be nice too, but I think it will be very hard to implement. After all the items already changed owner
- getting rep back by selling stuff to traders should be limited to getting it up to -300 max. That's enough to be safe in encounters again, assuming you're not unprotected. The safe to shoot people status for idolized people should either disappear altogether or it should be limited to encounters only.

Currently when staying logged on, you keep your current reputation. There's no increase or decrease. When logged off your rep increases or decreases depending on it being below -200 or above +200. So basically bad rep encourages people to log off, good rep encourages people to stay on. Bad rep should encourage you to correct it, which means staying logged on and do some tasks or quests to improve it.

[avv]

The whole player vs. character discussion is crap. You have to see things from your character's point of view, not you as player.

Then why is the player's point of view implemented in sneak? Player can't see sneaker if the char can't see him. But player can tell who stole from him even though the character can't.
Can't the principle of sneak be used on steal aswell? Players are able to spot and catch thieves the same way they can search for sneakers. But thief can also try to perform actions that help him not to get caught.

If players can't use their own awerness to affect ingame situations like stealing, it will just cause annoyance among players and lead to suicide-killing of thieves and third party methods that look even sillier than thieving.

when losing protection, for whatever reason, the unprotected status should stick for 1-3 real-time hours. Perhaps the time could depend on reputation. For instance:  antipathy (-300 to -900) or worse means the max penalty of 3 hours, neutral means 2 hours, accepted (300 to 900) or better means 1 hour. This should be calculated after the reputation drop from the action that caused you to lose the protected status.

This is pretty necessary at least now since death means nothing to thieves and they just spam their presence in towns. The names of unprotected could be listed somewhere in town to help fending off wrongdoers.

- unprotected people caused trouble for the npc faction. They should be shot on sight by the guards when they enter a town

They don't have to be shot on sight by the guards, they'd be just unprotected. It could be up to players to defend their home.

- only guards loot, no matter who shot who. Looters should be shot on sight, lose protection and get the same reputation penalty as thieves. People who lost stuff to PK in guarded towns like NCR should be able to buy it back from the sheriff at a fee of 25% of the value (guards have to make a living too). For thieving victims this would be nice too, but I think it will be very hard to implement. After all the items already changed owner

Perhaps the server could "remember" what were stolen from who. When the thief was shot and looted, the victim needs to walk to the sheriff and name the lost items to get them back. It could work like lost and found.