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[kttdestroyer]

I dont want to cause a flame but... Maybe there should be something like a "RP-GM" "position", a GM that only purpose would be to create temporary "things" in game, affect the world so the world is more living interaction towards the player. Well an idea.

[maszrum]

by the way, since some dev are reading this topic i have an opportunity to ask about 2238 storyline/timeline!
i mean how big can be players influence on fallout history. what we can change and what things we cant do
im asking for serval reasons, one of them is idea for project rp-pvp developing by our small commnity (~80 players?)

[Nice_Boat]

Details are missing, just like always. But yeah "System of Rewards" sounds better of course.

Why would anyone want to work out the details if the very idea met with so much hate, reluctance and "this can't be done" bullshit? At this stage it is more important to work out whether having GM led custom factions acting as the military arm of NPC factions with custom, high-end rewards is acceptable. Actual rewards are a secondary thing and since they'd be spawned by faction specific GMs instead of being managed by scripts they could be adjusted any time with no effort aside from brainstorming.

Thanks captain obvious. There aren't many possibilities if you don't want the ever repeating shit to hit the fan.

Shit did hit the fan because none of the previous scenarios were flexible. You were depending on players following a specific chain of pre-designed actions in an open environment and when they didn't you ended up with a clusterfuck. You wanted to have nearly perfect remote control over living human beings with extremely limited ability of affecting their behaviour, what did you expect? The failures were directly caused by a flawed event design philosophy - to make it work in a sandbox, you just present the players with a situation that is going to create conflicting interests, provide them with a period of exposition and have them go at it with whatever means they deem necessary and whatever creativity they can muster. You place new content in said sandbox and you have them work it out. If they don't - too bad for them, no rewards today. The only difference between creating pen and paper RPG sessions and creating FOnline events is the fact that with FOnline the GMs have limited instruments of control, so they have to make it all more open ended. Think of LARPs for example - how do they make scenarios for such games? Do they make restrictive events? No, they place key people to impersonate key NPCs at key locations, they tell the players more or less what to expect and they make it play out without much intervention.

Can only be done with a very small group of players. Else the fastest player will grab everything and the rest got nothing. "Improvise" is also great again. Lack of details are explained with "improvise!"

The more resistance there is at the goal, the more people are needed to overcome it. Nothing wrong with having groups of players compete with each other to get there too. Want an example with server limitations in mind? There you go.

Forum post:
- indication of a rumour of a group of treasure hunters setting of to get a weapons cache with hi-tech stuff
- the group got ambushed at the site by Nasty Robots, they're working at the base mainframe to turn them off
- there's a Mysterious Dude having remote access codes to Nasty Robots' mainframe scheduled to arrive somewhere in the NCR
- the scenario starts at 2.14.2011 GMT 18.00

Carrying it out:
- spawn some nice weapons and a few human NPCs at low level mariposa
- spawn some Nasty Robots at mariposa entrance
- have a GM masquerade as one of the Nasty Robots at mariposa entrance, make him airstrike the shit out of anyone willing to force his way in
- have a GM masquerade as The Mysterious Dude in the NCR, make him roleplay, he wants 10k caps for access code card, radio frequency to transmit them to Nasty Robot GM (so he doesn't airstrike the Chosen Group) and a password
- the group has the code, transmits it - but whoops, the trapped bounty hunters screwed something up, the airstrike bot-GM is out of the picture but the remaining Nasty Robot critters are still in place and the mainframe is sending information about defences being deactivated on all frequencies (server announcement, perhaps a few times)
- the group that got to the Mysterious Dude first has a headstart, but at that very moment every single wasteland faction is hell bent on getting to mariposa as fast as possible
- they probably go in, defeat the Nasty Robots and get their hands on their equipment

... and from now on god knows what happens next. Probably there's a series of ambushes, a lot of confusion and most likely everybody has a chance to take a shot at the reward. Hell, even a loner might sneak in and snatch a gun or two. Everything's done using same mechanics as the notorious Zombie Defence events, a forum post and some basic roleplaying.

Of course this example is crude, too simple and probably shouldn't ever be employed as is - but it goes on to show that it's possible to make it all work with what we have right now. Satisfied?

You know what would be even cooler? GMs playing some NPCs who lead an epic battle of Faction A against Faction B in a complicated political plot around Vault City and Gecko!

See, that was super easy! Wait, there is actually hard work behind it to explain, prepare and make sure that everything will work out correct, logical and in a more or less realistic way and so it does not result in "let's make a group, run to some location and kill everything"? Must have overlooked that somehow...

You're missing the point. There would be no hard work, no explanation, no making sure that everything works out correct. You place two factions with conflicting interests in a single environment, you have their leaders run politics based on roleplaying instead of "gang mentality" loss and profit and you let them use some serious carrot on a stick to recruit some serious grunts and you end up with political plots more complicated than you could ever think of on your own. Why? Simply because if you set those factions like that you end up with 20 people thinking about the most efficient ways of playing it out instead of a few devs/"do-it-all" GMs who generally tend to have more important work to do and can't be arsed to care that much.

[Lexx]

Why would anyone want to work out the details if the very idea met with so much hate

See. I ask you to explain and come up with details. You never do it. Still you write wall of text and more wall of text.

You were depending on players following a specific chain of pre-designed actions in an open environment and when they didn't you ended up with a clusterfuck.

Did we? I don't think so. At least I can't remember any. Come up with examples or let it be.

to make it work in a sandbox, you just present the players with a situation that is going to create conflicting interests

Thank you again captain obvious. I bet you 10 to 1 that such events will always either A attacks B or A defends from B. Players are trigger-happy.

Forum post:
- indication of a rumour of a group of treasure hunters setting of to get a weapons cache with hi-tech stuff
- the group got ambushed at the site by Nasty Robots, they're working at the base mainframe to turn them off
- there's a Mysterious Dude having remote access codes to Nasty Robots' mainframe scheduled to arrive somewhere in the NCR
- the scenario starts at 2.14.2011 GMT 18.00

Carrying it out:
- spawn some nice weapons and a few human NPCs at low level mariposa
- spawn some Nasty Robots at mariposa entrance
- have a GM masquerade as one of the Nasty Robots at mariposa entrance, make him airstrike the shit out of anyone willing to force his way in
- have a GM masquerade as The Mysterious Dude in the NCR, make him roleplay, he wants 10k caps for access code card, radio frequency to transmit them to Nasty Robot GM (so he doesn't airstrike the Chosen Group) and a password
- the group has the code, transmits it - but whoops, the trapped bounty hunters screwed something up, the airstrike bot-GM is out of the picture but the remaining Nasty Robot critters are still in place and the mainframe is sending information about defences being deactivated on all frequencies (server announcement, perhaps a few times)
- the group that got to the Mysterious Dude first has a headstart, but at that very moment every single wasteland faction is hell bent on getting to mariposa as fast as possible
- they probably go in, defeat the Nasty Robots and get their hands on their equipment

This is the first time you come up with details. Was it really this hard? You could have done the same already 3 pages ago.

You're missing the point. There would be no hard work, no explanation, no making sure that everything works out correct.

Then tell me why it was talked about GMs need charismatic characters with written down backgrounds and shit, if - now - it doesn't matter.

[Surf]

Also I want to add that stuff like NB posted as example is done on a regular basis, just not with huge amount of players. Hell, we even did this last night in The Glow, everyone was happy, everyone liked it. Probably Nice Boat couldn't participate because he was too busy to show others "how shit is done".

[Nice_Boat]

See. I ask you to explain and come up with details. You never do it. Still you write wall of text and more wall of text.

I did come up with details about everything aside from the actual rewards involved. What more do you want, pointing to specific people who are in my opinion appropriate to lead such factions? I don't believe that'd be appropriate - it should either be an arbitrary dev decision, or a community vote.

Did we? I don't think so. At least I can't remember any. Come up with examples or let it be.

Ares tournament - "gather round people or the event is cancelled" *some dude blows up* "THAT'S IT" *airstrikes everywhere*
Boxing event - bombings, bombings everywhere.
New Reno gangs - "yay, let's make a roleplaying event at the most popular recreational PvP arena on the server" *everybody starts wondering why are there powerbuilds killing people everywhere*

... I'm sure people will provide you with more examples.

Thank you again captain obvious. I bet you 10 to 1 that such events will always either A attacks B or A defends from B. Players are trigger-happy.

Oh, how about having them take part in an auction inside a protected city? How about having everyone come to a meeting inside the Crime Lord's hideout unarmed, with John Wayne and Keanu Reeves (GMs in disguise) guarding the entrance? Tell me how much real world money are you willing to bet and I'll take your odds any day.

This is the first time you come up with details. Was it really this hard? You could have done the same already 3 pages ago.

I wasn't aware you wanted me to go into such details.

Then tell me why it was talked about GMs need charismatic characters with written down backgrounds and shit, if - now - it doesn't matter.

I didn't talk about about written backgrounds and shit. I said GMs who'd lead those NPC-based factions would have to be charismatic and experienced enough to actually make such factions succeed while acting in accordance with the game lore when it comes to making wasteland politics.

(...) just not with huge amount of players. (...)

Well, there you have it.

[Surf]

Ares tournament - "gather round people or the event is cancelled" *some dude blows up* "THAT'S IT" *airstrikes everywhere*
Boxing event - bombings, bombings everywhere.
New Reno gangs - "yay, let's make a roleplaying event at the most popular recreational PvP arena on the server" *everybody starts wondering why are there powerbuilds killing people everywhere*

Yeah, it's the GMs/Devs fault if people are too stupid to behave to the simplest rules.

Well, there you have it.

You have what? Oh no - only a small amount of people could participate - the others were busy shooting others in random northern town XY?
If an event is designed for a smaller amount of people I won't let more people in there. Doesn't mean that it won't be repeated though.

[Lexx]

Boxing event - bombings, bombings everywhere.

So lining up to get them into the building is "following a specific chain of pre-designed actions in an open environment" that leads people to bomb up each other?

Oh, how about having them take part in an auction inside a protected city?

Wow, sounds cool! What to sell? Everyone has everything, after all. Giving out power armors to gain attention? That's kind of lame. Also I see various problems:
- Do players sell it on their own?
- How to make sure payment between buyer and seller will work out good?
- Will the stuff get stashed somewhere or the players keep it? Will the players have it with them or bring it later? If first: It could get lost fast.. thief, bomber,... if second: How to make sure buyer / seller stuff works out good?
- How to clean up the possible chaos that can happen with many players in a small area? We only have a more or less short perception-range.
- What if a big group of players shows up and attacks everyone? We remember: protected town != 100% secure town. The whole event could go down the shitter 2 minutes after it started. Or even before it started at all.

How about having everyone come to a meeting inside the Crime Lord's hideout unarmed, with John Wayne and Keanu Reeves (GMs in disguise) guarding the entrance?

For what? To have players there? Also a GM can only overwatch so-and-so many players. It's fiddle-work to check everyones inventory for explosives and other weapons. A mass of players can't be hold back by a GM.

Tell me how much real world money are you willing to bet and I'll take your odds any

How much will you bet? I am tensed to see how the outcome in your FOnline game will be.

I wasn't aware you wanted me to go into such details.

Of course I wanted, that's what all the fuzz is about. Talking about loose things is like talking about nothing. Getting straight points is what matters. You write about this and that and the other thing needs to be like this and that and the other thing. But you never have been specific. Your nice list a few posts ago about what to do (1. think about something not complex, 2. keep it simple. ...) is something my 2 years old nephew can come up with. It's common sense and therefore not helpfull in this discussion.

[Imprezobus]

Forum post:
- indication of a rumour of a group of treasure hunters setting of to get a weapons cache with hi-tech stuff
- the group got ambushed at the site by Nasty Robots, they're working at the base mainframe to turn them off
- there's a Mysterious Dude having remote access codes to Nasty Robots' mainframe scheduled to arrive somewhere in the NCR
- the scenario starts at 2.14.2011 GMT 18.00

Carrying it out:
- spawn some nice weapons and a few human NPCs at low level mariposa
- spawn some Nasty Robots at mariposa entrance
- have a GM masquerade as one of the Nasty Robots at mariposa entrance, make him airstrike the shit out of anyone willing to force his way in
- have a GM masquerade as The Mysterious Dude in the NCR, make him roleplay, he wants 10k caps for access code card, radio frequency to transmit them to Nasty Robot GM (so he doesn't airstrike the Chosen Group) and a password
- the group has the code, transmits it - but whoops, the trapped bounty hunters screwed something up, the airstrike bot-GM is out of the picture but the remaining Nasty Robot critters are still in place and the mainframe is sending information about defences being deactivated on all frequencies (server announcement, perhaps a few times)
- the group that got to the Mysterious Dude first has a headstart, but at that very moment every single wasteland faction is hell bent on getting to mariposa as fast as possible
- they probably go in, defeat the Nasty Robots and get their hands on their equipment

... and from now on god knows what happens next. Probably there's a series of ambushes, a lot of confusion and most likely everybody has a chance to take a shot at the reward. Hell, even a loner might sneak in and snatch a gun or two. Everything's done using same mechanics as the notorious Zombie Defence events, a forum post and some basic roleplaying.

its the part which Id comment as being made by cpt. Obvious the most, I can get myself shocked enough thats the one you like the most.

[Nice_Boat]

So lining up to get them into the building is "following a specific chain of pre-designed actions in an open environment" ... tell me, how should we get them in the building? Teleporting everyone in one-by-one, so they stop bombing up the folks?

Either accepting the bombings or realizing that having such an event run undisturbed is impossible would be a feasible conclusion.

Wow, sounds cool! What to sell? Everyone has everything? Giving out power armors? How cheap...

How about buying a daughter of an NCR diplomat captured by raiders in order to later use her to blackmail him to gain leverage on the NCR Rangers GM-led faction? Have you ever ran a real life RPG session? You seem to be lacking interesting ideas as far as creating or modifying narrative is concerned.

For what? To have players there?

Let's see... they could be trying to convince him to let them guard Mordino's copious jet transport scheduled to hit the streets in Reno? Some of them may be trying to earn some caps to buy muties for TC, some might want to double-cross the mafia and hit the stash themselves while others might've been coerced by VC representatives to hand it all over to them in return for a temporary cease-fire in TC.

How much will you bet? I am tensed to see how the outcome in your FOnline game will be.

Weren't we supposed to bet on me creating an in-game situation during an event where fighting wouldn't be an advantageous option (or wouldn't even be involved for that matter)?

Of course I wanted, that's what all the fuzz is about. Talking about loose things is like talking about nothing. Getting straight points is what matters. You write about this and that and the other thing needs to be like this and that and the other thing. But you never have been specific. Your nice list a few posts ago about what to do (1. think about something not complex, 2. keep it simple. ...) is something my 2 years old nephew can come up with. It's common sense and therefore not helpfull in this discussion.

So you want me to write event scenarios? Because that's what you end up asking me for if I am to get any more specific. Same with NPC-based GM-led factions - you want me to select the candidates and make faction rewards lists? Because again, that's what's left if I were to get into more detail - and doing that would be pointless if you disagreed with the very idea of having GM-led player based representations of NPC factions in the first place.

[Dr. Parchir]

i see that Lexx and Nice_Boat is going on really huge offtopic . . . cant you argue on PM? its Suggestions...



about Town Control its true that big gangs (with very experienced players) will always lead city. Why? i think that its all about how easy is to get good stuff on low level (crafting , vs encounters , bank interest). Make items harder to obtain so maybe then gangs wont use best stuff at town control.

[Lexx]

You seem to be lacking interesting ideas as far as creating or modifying narrative is concerned.

I asked *you* to give examples. Cool that you rotate it into this direction.

How about buying a daughter of an NCR diplomat captured by raiders in order to later use her to blackmail him to gain leverage on the NCR Rangers GM-led faction?

What happens if players kill her 5 minutes after the event started? You stop everything? Either way, it sounds like it would end soon after into a shootout once again.

So you want me to write event scenarios? Because that's what you end up asking me for if I am to get any more specific.

Exactly. I want to see your perfect ideas that will not end in a mess.

you want me to select the candidates and make faction rewards lists?

No, I wanted you to explain the "system of rewards" because right now it's just that: Fancy words.

and doing that would be pointless if you disagreed with the very idea of having GM-led player based representations of NPC factions in the first place.

Surprise, surprise: I never said nor wrote anything like that. In fact, I only wrote this:

GM controlled factions are planned since the very first day. So far it has not been possible due to the lack of various other prerequisites.

I didn't even wrote what these prerequisites are. Though it didn't stopped you to shot it down with this:

GM controlled/supported factions is a concept, not a game mechanic.

Never did I wrote anywhere that I dislike or am against Faction Masters (yes, FMs and not GMs, as it's written in my about 2 years old text file) who take control over various parts of a faction in combination with players to play through various scenarios.

[Nice_Boat]

What happens if players kill her 5 minutes after the event started? You stop everything? Either way, it sounds like it would end soon after into a shootout once again.

Why would they kill her if they could exchange her for a load of caps or having a meaningful faction do what they want? There are numerous ways of staging it so that a shootout wouldn't be probable (ie. advantageous to anyone involved). And even if they killed her, there would be consequences like having the NCR Ranger faction hell-bent on killing them, the NCR event characters refusing to deal with them et cetera. The point is that such events shouldn't be like single adventures in pen and paper RPG terms but more like a persistent campaign that lasts until the wipe with every action players undertake having serious long term consequences as far as politics are concerned.

Exactly. I want to see your perfect ideas that will not end in a mess.

So you've seen a few, the point is avoiding a mess is doable if you give people something worthy of their trouble and requiring peaceful action instead of going in guns blazing.

No, I wanted you to explain the "system of rewards" because right now it's just that: Fancy words.

FMs (I like this term so I'm going to use it from now on) would give out 8 tier 4 items fitting their faction (PA, APA, Pulse guns, Gauss Rifles/pistols, Vindicators) with a limited supply of ammo every month. They'd distribute it among faction members. If a faction becomes too wealthy, they receive no further supplies (easy since it's not scripted but based on item spawning). To keep wasteland from overflowing with tier 4 items they should have severe repair restrictions (ie. repairable only at faction NPCs or having a limit of one or two repairs before becoming broken beyond repair).

Never did I wrote anywhere that I dislike or am against Faction Masters (yes, FMs and not GMs, as it's written in my about 2 years old text file) who take control over various parts of a faction in combination with players to play through various scenarios.

So what's standing between you and bringing new faction names and FMs in right now? All you really need is designating correct people to lead them, giving them some time to organize and setting up their bases (as I've said, as faction terminals at places like Navarro or the NCR would require some work normal faction bases would make bearable replacements with some bullshit background story about going undercover or something like that). It'd actually help a great deal in balancing it out if we had a trial run at the end of a session, especially since people seem to be a bit bored and there's probably going to be no major TC fighting until the wipe.

[skejwen]

Why would they kill her if they could exchange her for a load of caps or having a meaningful faction do what they want? There are numerous ways of staging it so that a shootout wouldn't be probable (ie. advantageous to anyone involved). And even if they killed her, there would be consequences like having the NCR Ranger faction hell-bent on killing them, the NCR event characters refusing to deal with them et cetera. The point is that such events shouldn't be like single adventures in pen and paper RPG terms but more like a persistent campaign that lasts until the wipe with every action players undertake having serious long term consequences as far as politics are concerned.

For tah lulz! Or just to grief... maybe for science - lets chceck if her skin can resist explosion blast! Oh well... Just for lulz! xaxaxa
Consequences? Well... should I make new alt? Oh well... I dont like age... or maybe sex of current one(s)...

[Nice_Boat]

For tah lulz! Or just to grief... maybe for science - lets chceck if her skin can resist explosion blast! Oh well... Just for lulz! xaxaxa
Consequences? Well... should I make new alt? Oh well... I dont like age... or maybe sex of current one(s)...

Does making a new alt affect how your faction is perceived by other player factions? Don't think so. Then maybe it's preventing other players from recognizing who you are? Most of the time - nope, and keeping a low profile is a royal pain in the ass since it strips you out of your player-to-player reputation. And well, if you want to make life on this server miserable for you and your group - by all means, be allowed to do so. You can try creating an alt identity complete with a different IRC and forum profile later if that comes around and bites you in the ass... but I wouldn't expect people to actually try that. The point is alting works for bypassing mechanical consequences, it doesn't work for bypassing your standing with other players (in this case, FMs and GMs acting as various independent characters). In our example, killing the diplomat's daughter would work more or less like cheating in a trade transaction with another player - yeah, you get all the kicks and giggles for screwing someone over, but nobody is going to do business with you in the future and you will receive nearly universal contempt. Need a rationale for treating every alt like the character that made the crime for the narrative purposes? Call it a vendetta and treat them as a family. That's more or less how it works with the gangs anyway.