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Author Topic: Town Control  (Read 18144 times)

Izual

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2011, 06:29:30 pm »

2000 hp. Which is why we won every fight.
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Crazy

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2011, 06:38:30 pm »

P.S.: Izual is abuser and NCR army soldiers/players had 1000 HP and APAs as armours under skins of CAs. Ah, almost forgot that all had 3x BRD.

You forgot the 20 living anatomy.
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Michaelh139

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2011, 06:43:48 pm »

and 5x better crit
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Re: Town Control
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2011, 06:45:11 pm »

P.S.: Izual is abuser and NCR army soldiers/players had 1000 HP and APAs as armours under skins of CAs. Ah, almost forgot that all had 3x BRD.
It doesint sound very RP  ::)

Players cannot be allowed to affect the state of the wasteland as long as they don't share the same views as the npcs. Players do things for the lulz, excitement and interest, npcs do things to stay alive or uphold their society. So if lead was given to players, the world would be a smoking ruin pretty fast. Or there would be a giant penises or swastikas drawn everywhere with whatever materials it was possible to do.  

I dont believe that it is the players that are to share view of NPCs, its more that the NPCs should share the view of players (otherwise becouse of the stupid AI it wouldint bring anything to the game). The NPCs should react towards the player though (if a GM was general for NRC army for exemple, he could respond, as long as he plays it smart like most faction recruiters do, he doesint have to recruit players who want to damage the NCR).

In my opinion thats what its all about, the interactivness of the world. Now if the world is over taken by raider factions, then a GM can always enter and push it a bit to the other side so both sides can enjoy the game (like NCR, or like Raiders/Enclave if the thing goes other way).
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 06:49:49 pm by kttdestroyer »
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Surf

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2011, 06:49:15 pm »

Ergo, by being hostile to TC you're being hostile to the most active part of the playerbase

How dare people have their own opinions! Alsoplus too a sheer amount of people involved something doesn't change the opinion of one on this feature.

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It happened without any GM support, so I don't see how you could accuse the players of lack of creativity

You may go a page back in this wonderful thread and enlighten yourself that it wasn't me who screamed halp for GM support in Town Control.

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if your endeavors as GMs weren't even close to being this popular aside from singular events like NA vs DA which, incidentally, were mostly also gang based.

I don't care what random gang XY does an alliance with gang ABC to fight alliance 123 again. The same happened before, just under different names. Gangs aren't rooted in the Fallout universe, some atleast try it, majority is here to pwn, to random PvP. That's why you won't see GMs helping with TC stuff and the general negative attitude towards it, it's like throwing pearls before swine, even if it's a pity for the small amount of people who really want more then just the usual combat. And yeah, now you really hurt me that my "endeavours" as a GM weren't as popular in the pr0 player base as some random non fallout gangs fighting. :(



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Now, I could think of a thousand and one ideas on how to make this server even more lively

Yeah, we all know what you think of yourself and how high you set yourself, you always have the best ideas, we should thank you that you praise this thrad with your presence, etc, pp, yawn.

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with proactive, positive GM action based on general server "rules of physics" (instead of item spawning, free exp high HP Izual's NCR army, which was essentially "cheating", ie. free of limitations normal players had to overcome

Yeah, how dare someone tries out something. Thankfully there is always one NiceBoat to bemoan this. Btw - everyone was free to send an application to take part of the "cheating" and "abusing". I didn't see your application there. How  comes? Oh right, then you couldn't whine about it here, goody goody.

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but I won't even bother seeing how you all seem to have enforcer mentality (ie. "we're here to punish" instead of "we're here to help with creating something")

I am sure you again have all the worlds best ideas about it - no wonder - seeing your actions of your gang speaks for themself in "we're here to help with creating something". And sure, stuff like holding mines for people to mine didn't happen if I just don't think about it - Nice Boat Style.


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and lack any 2238-based experience in leading even a mildly succesful group of players.


I am sorry we're not as elite pr0players as you.

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Just some really basic food for thought - an NPC faction doesn't require complex scripting, new framework etc. - it requires a GM leader (and I mean someone who is actually qualified and proven), a location (there are plenty already in), a carrot on a stick to make players want to join (custom skins, maybe some god tier items for faction leaders spawned every week/month) and a transparent set of rules to keep the rest of the server from yelling "that's cheap!" or "abuse!". How about a faction stylist GM to give the currently existing gangs a bit of a personal touch instead of the current copy/paste Combat Armor image?


Wow, thank you for that huge and widely detailed description, no one has ever thought about THAT! If this is what you mean with "I have dozens of ideas.." then holy shit, we will have a bright future!  ::)

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But to do that you'd have to have some love for both the game (and I mean the game as it is, not the game as you want it to be) and the current PvP system/mechanics - and the current GM roster is sadly lacking individuals with these qualities.

The game is evolving and is not centered around your PvP (even if you might want it that way). Also, it has nothing to do with "PvP Mechanics" to do GMing. Ofcourse you'll know it better, likewise.

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So yeah, I'd support NPC factions led by new GMs with all my heart (as would probably most other players), but since your attitude is extremely hostile and dev's attitude seems to be quite defeatist I don't think it's going to happen in the foreseeable future. I'd love to be wrong about this one though.

NPC factions are planned since a long time (read Lexx' and Izuals posts) which is a totally different thing then the TC interferring some guys wanted here (won't happen). RJs post was quite nice btw. :)


I always thougt there should be GM, wich would give us the storyline of the game. They should make event with sense, coming into a big background story, where players bring their own stuff - and loose or win it,. Give skins for RP faction, and god tier items in some big PvP events in real towns.

GMs aren't responsible for the games background story progression.
I dont believe that it is the players that are to share view of NPCs, its more that the NPCs should share the view of players

lol'd.

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2011, 06:58:18 pm »

I dont believe that it is the players that are to share view of NPCs, its more that the NPCs should share the view of players

But this would mean that we'd have for example vault city randomly killing players in their own city, or camping unguarded mines.
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Nice_Boat

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2011, 07:00:43 pm »

GM controlled factions are planned since the very first day. So far it has not been possible due to the lack of various other prerequisites.

GM controlled/supported factions is a concept, not a game mechanic. If you talk about missing prerequisites, you're in my opinion missing the point. The point being that such factions could (and probably should) be more or less very much like the current gangs, but with some designated themes, prerequisites for candidates and rewards for members. You could implement it right now in a matter of minutes, you could've done that 6 months ago - adding the "NCR Rangers" or "Enclave Squadron Alpha" gang name and a faction terminal in an existing location isn't exactly rocket science, same with selecting talented individuals to make it work. Adding another layer of PvP mechanics like zone control or whatever you're working on is not going to change the basic fact that the GM team lacks people capable of successful leadership and well-meaning interaction with the entire playerbase, or even construing believable conflicts/scenarios inside the gameworld framework.

To make this critique a bit more constructive, the closest you ever got to achieving something meaningful was Izual's effort at creating the NCR Army, but there were obvious mistakes that made the project ultimately flop:
- the faction had no persistent impact on the game world; it was more of a player driven special encounter than a group with actual goal
- since there was no persistent impact, there was no long-term reward for participating, hence not enough experienced recruits
- heavy handed handling when it comes to supplies and character stats - while having everything supplied to you by ther army may be realistic, it's not a good game mechanic when everyone else has to work for his stuff; this contributed heavily to the general perception of the Army being that it's an abuse of the game world - hence even less experienced recruits
- heavy handed handling when it comes to player discipline - again, while having people parade on the base square and go through basic drills and chores may be realistic, it is not enjoyable gameplay - even less people willing to join
- as much as this may hurt, it's a fact - generally incompetent handling during combat situations which combined with "cheated" stats and equipment led to the Army having a rather terrible reputation among normal gangs - they were either the bringers of sudden death or free loot supply, ang given their lack of persistent and predictable goals they couldn't be interacted with on a meaningful level by other factions (you couldn't ambush them, you couldn't fight them over something important or prestiguous - as I've said, just a really weird random encounter)

Successful GM-driven, NPC based factions should share the following qualities:
- be allowed to take part in TC to create meaningful, persistent interaction with both gangs and other NPC factions
- have clearly defined, openly stated goals and boundaries in which they operate
- take active, roleplay-based actions in the server's faction diplomacy environment to pursue the aforementioned goals; this means being active on IRC, forums and the server itself to actually be competitive when going against player based gangs; leaders behaving out of character in this context (no matter where - IRC, forums or server) would be completely unacceptable
- perhaps publish a monthly "faction review" with immediate goals stated, to make their behaviour transparent and predictable and to reflect their more "open" nature (this could exclude the more in-depth intrigues and secret alliances, which could be revealed after they stop being relevant) - this would have an additional effect of creating a persistent server history and improving the general immersion
- faction members should generally get their exp, stats, supplies etc. on their own; important members would get faction-specific hi-tech hardware in extremely limited quantities (like, 1 or 2 PAs monthly for 5 guys or something like that, a bit more weapons - make it more of a sacred relic than everyday occurence on the battlefield, just like Gauss Pistols right now or CA a few wipes ago when it was uncraftable) - the rules for getting supplies should be public, dynamic and generally subject to constant playerbase review and discussions to keep it all balanced
- while important member and faction leader in-game discipline as far playing "in-character" should be maintained, normal members should be allowed to act more or less at will with some very basic constraints not to scare people away; a normal NPC faction member should be encouraged to roleplay by good leadership embodied in giving a good example and the leader maintaining the faction-specific mood, not forced by an arbitrary set of rules or some specific code of conduct
- in combat situations, good leadership and proper tactics would be a must to maintain the credibility of the faction and the spirit of competition among its members; this means using voice communication software, creating a members-only forum and doing all the things that normal gangs do; this is an absolute must or else such factions would just share NCR Army's fate in being considered extremely cheap and/or incompetent when it comes to solving tactical situations.

As you can see, all of the conditions can be fulfilled with the game mechanics we have right now, this very moment. All that is needed is a few good, competent men willing to make it happen. Heck, even placing the faction terminals inside the faction-specific WM locations wouldn't be required - it could just as well be normal basecamps with the only server-related prerequisite being the devs providing faction names for these groups.

To sum things up, FOnline 2238 is more or less a roleplaying game. A good roleplaying game session is not created by a good rulebook and rolling 2 dice instead of 6. It is created, first and foremost, by good gamemasters coming up with good stories. Consequently, introducing new functions into the 2238 server world is not going to improve the overall experience - allowing a few dedicated and competent people prove themselves at demanding jobs of leading NPC factions and writing the overall narrative of this gameworld, a narrative that can be heavily impacted by actions of gangs and perhaps even single individuals is going to work wonders.

To sum it up, it really is all about design philosophy, not about going into specifics and creating more and more complicated code while losing sight of the bigger picture. Countless examples, both pen-and paper and online prove that human-oriented approach is more effective and flexible than leaving it all to mechanics and calculations. The devs will of course choose as they please and the players will judge them on their choices. I think that the ever-diminishing server population and the rise of other FOnline projects are clearly a sign that some change is necessary.

Also, wall of text critically hits you for 3243262 points of damage.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 07:15:53 pm by Nice_Boat »
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Re: Town Control
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2011, 07:02:16 pm »

Well, in my opinion, there should be few ways to control city. I will start with 2 ideas of alternatives:

1. The town is to be captured (just like now) and is to be invested in, it will generate very little income at the beggining if any. The faction in control have to build it up, like bank, stores, crafting house, pub. Those investments will each generate the income of the town. Those things should take some time, and to reach a steady income should take maybe 4 days. The Cost of investment should return itself after lets say 5 days.

2. Town could be raided, in a way of killing all traders, bankers and who ever represents the upgraded buildings. The money gained (looted from the corpses) will be represented with lets say 2 days of income (that NPC is killed and it will take him 3 days to respawn (more days then money gained of) and start generating money towards the controlling faction again). Destroying buildings and its upgrades doesint give anything (exept maybe rep drop, if the reputation would work correctly, otherwise no point).

The idea is to allow raider factions to do what they do, instead of taking control of the town they dont really want. Allowing them to take the money, without having to take the control of the town (like raiders suppose to do). Also, the town maybe would need some supplies now and then, which would ensure that the faction that controls the town, really wants the town (maybe repairs on buildings? or killing rats in the mine would give some boost towards this and that, in other words, things that you only do if you care about the town other then just income).

And if raiders are too weak they will always die and lose all their stuff.
And if raiders are too strong they will take over the control of town.
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Re: Town Control
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2011, 07:05:51 pm »

I don't care what random gang XY does an alliance with gang ABC to fight alliance 123 again. The same happened before, just under different names. Gangs aren't rooted in the Fallout universe, some atleast try it, majority is here to pwn, to random PvP. That's why you won't see GMs helping with TC stuff and the general negative attitude towards it, it's like throwing pearls before swine, even if it's a pity for the small amount of people who really want more then just the usual combat. And yeah, now you really hurt me that my "endeavours" as a GM weren't as popular in the pr0 player base as some random non fallout gangs fighting. :(

This is an Online game, so ofcourse it will be player infuenced and in my opinion thats the beuty of it. What is the diffrence between fallout 2 Khans and North Bandits? What is the diffrence between the Lawyers and Sherrif in Redding attitude in fallout 2? How are those 2 factions not fallout universe factions when they could easly be ones as well? Its too bad both of those have to act same in the game, becouse the engine is not responsive towards factions. Its like saying, only fallout 1 and 2 factions should exist... That would leave us a lot creative options indeed. And, if you ask me, i would not play such game personally, what i love with Fonline, is the faction system (and some other things that are not often seen in other games).


I dont believe that it is the players that are to share view of NPCs, its more that the NPCs should share the view of players
lol'd.
? Care to be more "expainful"?

And if raiders are too weak they will always die and lose all their stuff.
And if raiders are too strong they will take over the control of town.
Yes, everybody risk loosing stuff in this game mate.
Maybe they would, but they might loose cash on it, meaning, the raiding should be more risky and profitiable (raiding should be easier and quick money making, like constructing a house is easier then burning it down). What raiders dont really should have is support of the people (either NPC or Players).

But this would mean that we'd have for example vault city randomly killing players in their own city, or camping unguarded mines.

That is possible, thats why there must be rules of which every memeber of NPC faction has to apply to. If a Vault City member kills a Non-Ghaul / Non-Raider then he should get a minus indeed and eventually throwed out of Vault City, if he kills random players in VC then he should be throwed out straight away, either by VC leader, or by the game system...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 07:27:46 pm by kttdestroyer »
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Re: Town Control
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2011, 07:11:07 pm »

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2011, 07:14:47 pm »

like, 1 or 2 PAs monthly for 5 guys or something like that

I dont think NCR should have PA/APA at all... Would just look wierd. Unless they somehow raided the BoS base.
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Re: Town Control
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2011, 07:15:08 pm »

They said already that players are acting stupid and childish and it'll fail, and really... even if someone will start it even since today, there will be someone who will try to ruin everything because he is bored.
Also Surf Solar is right. We tried a lot GM influenced stuff already, but a lot (a lot? Most of it, if it wasn't nazi-controlled) failed because of players who want to ruin the fun for everyone. It's just how it is. Public events with lots of players don't work in a game where nobody is invincible. Doesn't matter if you write 10 lines of background for your GM character or 10 A4 pages, nobody is interested in such things.
So what? Someone isn't doing what you want? 1st time warning before all players, every next player who will do something stupid will be banned for 1000 years. And ruin by what? Coming somewhere with dynamite and exploding lots pijamas? It's ok, they were standing there, he was roleplaying suicidal terrorist, he came and exploded poor bluesuits, nothing special, everyone can die in this world. Coming with bazookas and miniguns and kill everything on sight? Consider it player-based event, why can't someone come and start killing everyone on street at centre of city with minigun? It's fun!
For example: one GM playing role of raider leader, he isn't fighter himself, he will observe battle in GM-stealth without using his imba 300% skills and immunity to everything. PC factions can't start TC, as I said before, PC faction just a community of players with a base. Noone can join NPC faction himself, he must 1st ask that GM or better GMs, if there're more than 1 responsible for that NPC faction, and after that he'll be invited, if he is a loner. If he is in a PC faction, then thier leader should add thier faction to that NPC faction and it'll work like alliance, so NPC faction will consist of loners who belong to it and PC factions. GM(s) will use radio channel or anything to warn about activities of thier faction, for example raiders are going to rob Hub caravan, while Hub caravan has a faction too with thier GM who waring about caravan moving from Hub to VC, whoever will escort it will get a reward, and then a PvP between Hub caravan guards and raiders somewhere in the wasteland! May be even turn based.. well probably not.
And how someone can ruin this? Some raider will shout "MUAHAHAHAHA!" and explode his raider friends with dynamite? Well... he is a raider, may be he has problems with brains. Hub caravan guards will get a bazooka and kill his fellows? May be he is a traitor or crazy sociopath or both. Saying "i pwn u nub, because i'm cul raider and you shitfag"? Who cares? Everyone can say whatever they want. If faction will grow too big (2 major PC faction will be there), then there could be separate missions against 2 or 3 other factions like raiders robbing Hub caravan, other raider group attacking NCR ranger safe house and 3rd raider group defending thier base from...emm well anything. And all of these 3 events in the same time, to balance power of factions, but it's only if one NPC faction will be too powerful, so it'll be 1v2 or 1v3.
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Nice_Boat

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2011, 07:23:31 pm »

I dont think NCR should have PA/APA at all... Would just look wierd. Unless they somehow raided the BoS base.

Yeah, this kind of equipment would be faction specific. Hell, it could be even event specific. Imagine the news of a new stash of hi-tech equipment hidden somewhere in the desert spreading all over the forums with some screenshots and a list including Gauss Rifles and Pulse Rifles with the information that it'll become accessible in a week at 6PM GMT. Imagine the activity this would spur - people going all over the place looking for intel, factions fighting over access to quest-specific NPCs played by GMs, finally a showdown at the stash because shit goes wrong and at the last moment the coordinates are transmitted all over the wasteland and the defence grid is still on preventing the first faction to get there from exfiltrating with the goodies. And yeah, you get Tier 4 equipment in TC during the weeks to come. So what? It's limited and can be made to break down faster/be irreparable. The point is everyone involved had fun, it wasn't scripted, it didn't require fascist-level GM overwatch, it was a PvP conflict with lasting consequences and a new background and it involved spontaneous roleplay when talking to quest-specific NPCs. How come nothing like this happened yet? Perhaps Surf_Solar and people like him were too busy writing sarcastic posts and being angry at players for not living up to their True Fallout Standards to even notice the possibility ::)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 07:29:49 pm by Nice_Boat »
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Surf

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2011, 07:31:04 pm »

I wasn't the one who started to be a smartass, NiceBoat.

And reading all this stuff you are suggesting here is showing the obvious fact that you have no experience in GMing and are underestimating the amount of work done behind it. It sure does sound nice on the paper and similar stuff was planned. Ofcourse you will now reply (and frankly I don't care) that we are incompetent and such, but keep on living the dream.

Lexx

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Re: Town Control
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2011, 07:35:40 pm »

Quote
GM controlled/supported factions is a concept, not a game mechanic.

In order to do this, various mechanics need to be done first. But of course, you would not need anything, just an immortal character who can run around and talk about god and the world. Players for sure will follow you.

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You could implement it right now in a matter of minutes

Hahaahahahahaha.


Hahhahaha.


Hahhahahahahh.

Hah.

Hehe.

Good one.



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So what? Someone isn't doing what you want? 1st time warning before all players, every next player who will do something stupid will be banned for 1000 years. And ruin by what? Coming somewhere with dynamite and exploding lots pijamas? It's ok, they were standing there, he was roleplaying suicidal terrorist, he came and exploded poor bluesuits, nothing special, everyone can die in this world.

Damn, you are right. Why did we added guards at the New Reno Fight Night? People exploding all around was just normal after all. Especially because they hammered people out of the map who wanted to see the fights.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 07:47:34 pm by Lexx »
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