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[yoz]

Remove the mercs' autoshoot option to make merc leaders use the mercenary Alt key interface and actually play the game.

[GroeneAppel]

Remove the mercs' autoshoot option to make merc leaders use the mercenary Alt key interface and actually play the game.

and render them completely usseles: mercs cant gaurd anymore. Also good luck trying to alt click a running target quickly.
the Time it takes to alt click your target is enough to kill you easily. Don't tell me its fair, leader builds put 6-8 points into charisma which you can use for other skills.

[yoz]

Let me expand that a bit.

Last wipe, there was a discussion about minigunners overpowering everything because they dealt the highest damage attack with just one click, while small gunners and energy gunners dealt less damage and had to aim.

This wipe, we have merc leaders overpowering everything, but the disbalance this time is so bad it's ridiculous and almost funny. Last wipe, big gunners at least had to point and click. This wipe, merc leaders don't even have to do that - they don't have to do anything. We have a build in the game that is being rewarded for doing nothing. You do nothing to deal the firepower of 5 big gunners.

Does the Alt key menu remain in place if the target moves? If so, then attacking with a merc leader will be the same as attacking with a build that has to aim. The interface is there and it should be utilized.

[Lordus]

I am against supermutants artillery, current "fire and leave" mechanism combined with impossibility of elimination of dual loggers ruins the game. This is fact that nobody disagree with. But also i think, that setting mercs options to auto kill is not bad. It could help i.e. roleplayers, i used this feauture to kill all tent thiefs,... .

 I think that there should exist latency between entering TC zone and unfreezing the mercs (so no sudden teleport artillery strikes). Also i think that there should exist something like tree of which mercs you can use, depends on level. (So no more lvl. 5 supermutant leaders), also you should have karma with mercenaries, so if you loose many mercs, you will not be avaible to hire new (you will be able to enslave npcs only) and you will have to wait...

 Many ideas.. Problem i see and i can compare is this: On TLA server, if Cvet see that there is any problem with game mechanism, he eliminates the reason of it first, then he starts his works on repair. I.e.: on TLA server, there does not work Armor Piercing ammunition from some reason. His temporary solution? Ability to "recraft" AP ammo into full metal jacket type.

 Here you can temporary erase NPCs that sells supermutants or even all mercs and safe PvP balance.

 If you want to see, how easy you can kill enemy via second computer alt supermutants leader, look at this video, from 10 to 25 second. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXPBVKvIjhw

 One click on second computer, 15 seconds and thats all you need to ruin other players daily entertainment. We know about this for many months (even before wipe this was abused), we are posting many posts and threads, many updades, we offer simple solution and result is..

[Kanly]

A possible solution may be

When you buy new mercs they will have low level, green rookie  (eg 5) so if you dont waste some time to level up they will be not very useful , so when your mercs is killed then you will have waste some time for level up the new one .

[Michaelh139]

Let me expand that a bit.

Last wipe, there was a discussion about minigunners overpowering everything because they dealt the highest damage attack with just one click, while small gunners and energy gunners dealt less damage and had to aim.

This wipe, we have merc leaders overpowering everything, but the disbalance this time is so bad it's ridiculous and almost funny. Last wipe, big gunners at least had to point and click. This wipe, merc leaders don't even have to do that - they don't have to do anything. We have a build in the game that is being rewarded for doing nothing. You do nothing to deal the firepower of 5 big gunners.

just saying, this has been the case since... like.... ever since there were mercenaries, so yeah.... don't complain now that people are actually making use of mercs.   P.S. we are definitely not working our asses off to provide the ammo, guns, and caps in order to keep enough income to hold on to a squad of mercs capable of Pvp. its all just handed to us.  Not only that, but you say merc leaders are rewarded for doing absolutely nothing, but all merc leaders with a brain actually fight alongside their mercs, they dont just sit back and watch, that would be suicide, although what is mostly done is use our superstims to stay alive because chances are we're already dead since everyone always aims for the merc leaders first  .

Does the Alt key menu remain in place if the target moves? If so, then attacking with a merc leader will be the same as attacking with a build that has to aim. The interface is there and it should be utilized.

no, thing is, its not the same, its hard to explain, I suggest actually trying a merc build yourself instead of just complaining.

[yoz]

We are getting sidetracked, so let me tell you what my suggestion is again. My suggestion is that merc leaders should have to aim (click on their target to attack it) just like everyone else.

If I wrote an autoshoot program that made my char automatically shoot everyone that entered the encounter, people would start yelling about cheating and unfair advantage. I don't see why someone who can deal single big gunner damage should not have that advantage, but someone who can deal 5 big gunners' damage should. If anything, it should be the opposite.

I value mercs as guards too, so the autoshoot option should be enabled in bases only.

Merc leaders putting points into charisma is supposed to give them the ability to have multiple damage dealing followers, not to give them an aimbot-like advantage.

When I said that merc leaders don't have to do anything, I said that regarding a particular game mechanic. Merc leaders don't have to do anything when it comes to attacking targets. Everyone has to gear up the characters that he shoots with. Having to gear up your followers does not justify merc leaders getting an aimbot-like advantage.

[Michaelh139]

Hmmm...  But there's two things left to discuss:  Realism and risk/reward system.

Realism:  It doesn't make any sense, that if you have the intention of killing everyone in a particular area or just anyone, that you could not tell your followers to do so as well.  

Risk/reward:  Merc leaders risk more than ANY other build out there just to participate in general pvp, imagine how the risk/reward ratio would be inbalanced due to such a nerf.
Merc leaders risk over 300k caps worth when using mutie squads (ofc only when buying RL muties, but equipment/amountofammo as well) and somewhere around 30k-50k when using other pvp worthy squads.

besides that, BG mercs are the only real problem, every other follower would be COMPLETELY obselete with this nerf.

A possible solution may be

When you buy new mercs they will have low level, green rookie  (eg 5) so if you dont waste some time to level up they will be not very useful , so when your mercs is killed then you will have waste some time for level up the new one .

Why do you think people dont level their mercs up right now?  Because its not worth it at all, to grind up a follower, and have him instant killed without any use in some random encounter or by another player  .  when player dies, he only loses stuff, when merc dies, player loses caps, time, equipment, people will say "Well so do i"  But thats not entirely true, because other builds do not use all three of these at once, those builds can buy with caps, saving them time, when a one of you player crafts it, you lose time, but not caps, etc.

[JovankaB]

For me it seems like Lordus just wants safe grid camping, that's what you do on the video - swarming the entrance... I don't really think even BG mutants are bad, it's a way to counter grid campers, which is WORSE practice than mercenaries in my opinion . If you want safety don't camp the exit grid, go inside the town a bit. And I agree with Michaelh139, no other build risks that much time and money as merc build, maybe a gauss pistol build (probably that's why I didn't see any).

[yoz]

Balance should be valued more than realism. Mercs are unbalanced and removing autoshoot will rebalance their risks and rewards.

The reward of using a big gunner is the damage of 1 big gunner that char can deal. The risk of using a big gunner is the items that this 1 big gunner can lose.
The reward of using a merc leader is the damage 5 big gunners can deal. The risk of using a merc leader is the items that these 5 big gunners can lose.

If both chars have to aim to attack their targets, the reward/risk ratio is the same for both - they are balanced. Merc leaders risk losing 5 times the items, but that's because they deal 5 times the damage.

If only merc leaders have this additional aimbot-like advantage, they get an additional reward that is not associated with any additional risk. They are unbalanced.

I used big gunners as an example, but you can apply the same to any other build.

[JovankaB]

The reward of using a big gunner is the damage of 1 big gunner that char can deal. The risk of using a big gunner is the items that this 1 big gunner can lose.
The reward of using a merc leader is the damage 5 big gunners can deal. The risk of using a merc leader is the items that these 5 big gunners can lose.

And the mercenaries grow on trees?
Also it's easier to kill 5 mercenaries than 5 PvP players with good equipment, except one case - when someone ambushes you while you camp on exit grid.

[Michaelh139]

The reward of using a big gunner is the damage of 1 big gunner that char can deal. The risk of using a big gunner is the items that this 1 big gunner can lose.
The reward of using a merc leader is the damage 5 big gunners can deal. The risk of using a merc leader is the items that these 5 big gunners can lose.

If both chars have to aim to attack their targets, the reward/risk ratio is the same for both - they are balanced. Merc leaders risk losing 5 times the items, but that's because they deal 5 times the damage.

Bull, do you know where mercs come from?  Caps spent at towns, and is the biggest caps dump in the game and you cannot get those caps back like you would from trading merchants for your equipment, in fact, muties come from towns that are UNGAURDED, you can get pk'd for 250k caps because as a leader you can't defend yourself from most other builds, plus militia.  Just keep that in mind.  Besides, you say you only lose equipment on the mercs, well what about the immense amount of caps you you spent to get the mercs in the first place? and the continuos amount of caps you must spend to make up for losses of life?  

[yoz]

Yes, I'm sleepy so I missed that. The price of those mercs should also included in the risks of using a merc leader.

So the price of aimbotting then turns out to be the price of a merc. It would be good if builds other than merc leaders are also given a channel through which they can chose to pay that price and enjoy the same advantage.

[yoz]

Here is another thought.

When it comes to risks, a big gunner's potential losses are weapons and armor.
When it comes to risks, a merc leader's potential losses are weapons and merc price.

If merc prices were to drop to about half of what they are right now, the reward/risk of both would be balanced without anyone having to aimbot.

Single char builds will be happy because they will not get aimbotted and merc leaders will be happy because they will have cheaper mercs.

[Surf]

It is an interesting suggestion, but I fear that with the current speed of critter movement it would be very hard to hit the enemy with the merc menu. Maybe making alt+click on critter without the dropdown menue...